Help with series 70 commander (9mm)

mr. pitiful · March 23, 2005, 09:06 AM

Hello, the frame on my series 70 9mm LTW Commander is ever so slightly battered where the circular center part of the back of the guide rod has come into contact with it, which is causing the gun to lock up every few shots so tightly that you need a rubber mallet to free it up.
I called Wilson Combat and was told they "may" be able to do something, but more than likely I should just get a new frame. I have three questions I hope you can help me with.

1. Which of the following companies make a COMMANDER size frame so it will not have to be cut, McCormick, Essex, Caspian, etc.....?

2. If I should decide not to go that route, what is my series 70 upper worth? (shiny blue), with barrel, bushing, guide rod, extractor, ejector, slide stop if I were to just sell it? The slide has no sights, as I had just got the slide back from WC and had the front dovetailed.

3. If I include the ejector, will this not in essence be a complete 9mm conversion for a 45acp Commander?

Thank you.

Mr. Pitiful

1911Tuner · March 23, 2005, 09:17 AM

Hi Mr. Pitiful,,

Havin' a hard time visualizing why the guide rod flange peening the frame abutment back is locking the gun up that tightly...unless the abutment has set so far back that the slide is actually hitting the frame instead of the flange itself...and locking up because of the wedging action between slide
and frame rails. Maybe the flange gets cocked at an angle and forces itself against the bottom of the barrel???

Is it a full-length guide rod?
If it is a FLGR...check for any sign of hard contact along the length of it...as in the rod OD and the bushing ID getting into a bind when the slide recoils.

If, as you say it's just slightly battered ...I also can't imagine why you'd need a new frame to repair it.

Lay the guide rod in the frame in its normal position and look to see if the front edge is sitting forward of the frame rails.

Standin' by...

Dave Sample · March 23, 2005, 12:25 PM

No Comment.

mr. pitiful · March 23, 2005, 04:31 PM

Thank you for the help. It is a full length guide rod. I laid it down like you said, and the front edge of the guide rod is still far infront of the rails, so it shouldnt be hitting together. The gunsmith I took it to figured the guide rod was angling up after a few shots and lodging itself against the barrel, but I see no signs of that on the barrel itself. I am not a gunsmith so I am having a hard time figuring it out. He said he was gonna try a regular plug type guide rod instead of the full length one, but then never said anything about how it went, just gave me back the gun and said "its F****d"
I am at a my witts end trying to figure out just how it locks up and where it locks up. And VERY tightly. Maybe I should try putting in a shorter guide rod myself and see what happens. I guess it cant hurt to try.
I appreciate the help.

Mr. Pitiful

Dave Sample · March 23, 2005, 06:41 PM

I never recommend full length guide rods in Commander size 1911's. I don't think my reasons matter here.
The Commander bushing is shorter: The recoil spring plug is shorter: the recoil spring is shorter. All of these are Commander Specific Parts. I would guess that something is out of kilter here and that is causing it to batter slightly. My advice? Install the correct parts all the way and DO NOT use a shok-buff. The correct recoil spring weight is 18 LBS. The correct mainspring weight is 23 LBS. I hope this helps.

mr. pitiful · March 23, 2005, 07:22 PM

It does help. I purchased this gun years ago and sold it to a freind. I bought it back, sent the slide off for a dovetail, and when I got it back, all of the problems started. The recoil spring that I took out of it is a VERY worn out 9lb spring, the guide rod is full length, and there was a shock buff in it. I know it worked with this setup for quite a while for him, but I suppose it finally gave out with that system. I will try all of the original parts and see how it goes hopefully this weekend.

Thanks.

Mr. Pitiful

1911Tuner · March 23, 2005, 07:57 PM

A clew! When they clamped it in the mill vise, they coulda squeezed the slide
in 'til it got into a bind with the frame. Take the barrel out and slip the slide
on the frame. Work it back and forth...Any tight spots?

Hunter Customs · March 26, 2005, 11:24 PM

On the full length guide rod make sure the top of the back side of the recoil shield is angled so it will not bind on the lower lug or what some will term as the foot of the barrel.
Also what 1911Tuner said about clamping the slide in the mill vice may be causing some of the problem. I personally use a slide jig bolted to my mill table on my mill when cutting sights on a slide, prevents the above mentioned problem and does not leave any marks on the side of the slide.
Also is the slide and frame rails good and clean no overlooked metal chips from milling the sight dovetail.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

Hunter Customs · March 26, 2005, 11:48 PM

To answer your question about commander frames Caspian makes one, here's a picture of my Old Days Commander and it's built on a Caspian frame.
I'm not sure what Essex has to offer and McCormick frames come with Government length frame rails only. That being said the government frame could be machined for a commander slide.
The commander in this picture is set up with a full length guide rod and runs like top, so I don't believe using a full length guide rod is the problem.
Let us know how everything turns out.
Also I would not be to quick to sell the gun or topend as I believe the gun could be repaired
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

mr. pitiful · March 27, 2005, 01:16 PM

Thank you all for all the help. And Thanks again Hunter Customs, this has been about the third or fourth time you have helped me. If I cannot get it to work, I may end up sending it to you. Thanks again.

Mr. Pitiful

Dave Sample · March 28, 2005, 02:44 PM

If the slide were pinched bad enough to cause a problem, I do not not think the gun would cycle at all. Let us know how this works out.

1911Tuner · March 28, 2005, 03:08 PM

Just for chuckles...Take the slide off and push on the disconnect to see if it moves easily. Try it with the with the trigger pulled and finger off trigger. Sometimes a short or kinked center sear spring leg can tie up the disconnect and put a lot of drag on the slide. Worth a look...

Bill Z · March 28, 2005, 03:45 PM

With the shockbuff now out of it, it may be possible that the slide is going back farther and getting 'jammed' on the tips of the rails. Detail strip the pistol down to bare frame and slide and dry it off. Paint up the leading egdge of the rails and slip the slide on all the way back. Does it bind? You should be able to see where by the missing marker color on the rail if this is it. Apply a judicious file or stone as necessary.

I have encountered this when fitting a new slide and frame together every time.

Bill

Dave Sample · March 28, 2005, 03:50 PM

Guide Rod head per Hunter Customs Post.

Hunter Customs · March 30, 2005, 11:06 PM

mr. pitiful
You are welcome for any assistance I may have given you. I actually bevel my recoil shields more than the one in the picture. My bevel extends all the way to the top of the shield. What this does is let the barrel unlock without binding on the recoil shield of the guide rod.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

Dave Sample · March 31, 2005, 11:23 AM

The one pictured is a factory guide rod from King's. The ones I use now all have the bevel done at the factory. I like the One Piece CMC Guide Rods. They can be cut to Commander size, also.

March 23, 2005, 09:06 AM	#1
mr. pitiful Member Join Date: March 26, 2000 Posts: 42	Help with series 70 commander (9mm) Hello, the frame on my series 70 9mm LTW Commander is ever so slightly battered where the circular center part of the back of the guide rod has come into contact with it, which is causing the gun to lock up every few shots so tightly that you need a rubber mallet to free it up. I called Wilson Combat and was told they "may" be able to do something, but more than likely I should just get a new frame. I have three questions I hope you can help me with. 1. Which of the following companies make a COMMANDER size frame so it will not have to be cut, McCormick, Essex, Caspian, etc.....? 2. If I should decide not to go that route, what is my series 70 upper worth? (shiny blue), with barrel, bushing, guide rod, extractor, ejector, slide stop if I were to just sell it? The slide has no sights, as I had just got the slide back from WC and had the front dovetailed. 3. If I include the ejector, will this not in essence be a complete 9mm conversion for a 45acp Commander? Thank you. Mr. Pitiful

March 23, 2005, 09:17 AM	#2
1911Tuner Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills Posts: 666	Commander in a Jam Hi Mr. Pitiful,, Havin' a hard time visualizing why the guide rod flange peening the frame abutment back is locking the gun up that tightly...unless the abutment has set so far back that the slide is actually hitting the frame instead of the flange itself...and locking up because of the wedging action between slide and frame rails. Maybe the flange gets cocked at an angle and forces itself against the bottom of the barrel??? Is it a full-length guide rod? If it is a FLGR...check for any sign of hard contact along the length of it...as in the rod OD and the bushing ID getting into a bind when the slide recoils. If, as you say it's just slightly battered ...I also can't imagine why you'd need a new frame to repair it. Lay the guide rod in the frame in its normal position and look to see if the front edge is sitting forward of the frame rails. Standin' by... __________________ If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck

March 23, 2005, 07:57 PM	#7
1911Tuner Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills Posts: 666	Dovetailed Slide A clew! When they clamped it in the mill vise, they coulda squeezed the slide in 'til it got into a bind with the frame. Take the barrel out and slip the slide on the frame. Work it back and forth...Any tight spots? __________________ If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck

March 26, 2005, 11:48 PM	#9
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	Old Days Commander To answer your question about commander frames Caspian makes one, here's a picture of my Old Days Commander and it's built on a Caspian frame. I'm not sure what Essex has to offer and McCormick frames come with Government length frame rails only. That being said the government frame could be machined for a commander slide. The commander in this picture is set up with a full length guide rod and runs like top, so I don't believe using a full length guide rod is the problem. Let us know how everything turns out. Also I would not be to quick to sell the gun or topend as I believe the gun could be repaired Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

March 28, 2005, 03:08 PM	#12
1911Tuner Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills Posts: 666	Sticky Slide Just for chuckles...Take the slide off and push on the disconnect to see if it moves easily. Try it with the with the trigger pulled and finger off trigger. Sometimes a short or kinked center sear spring leg can tie up the disconnect and put a lot of drag on the slide. Worth a look... __________________ If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck

March 23, 2005, 12:25 PM	#3
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	No Comment.

March 23, 2005, 04:31 PM	#4
mr. pitiful Member Join Date: March 26, 2000 Posts: 42	Thank you for the help. It is a full length guide rod. I laid it down like you said, and the front edge of the guide rod is still far infront of the rails, so it shouldnt be hitting together. The gunsmith I took it to figured the guide rod was angling up after a few shots and lodging itself against the barrel, but I see no signs of that on the barrel itself. I am not a gunsmith so I am having a hard time figuring it out. He said he was gonna try a regular plug type guide rod instead of the full length one, but then never said anything about how it went, just gave me back the gun and said "its F****d" I am at a my witts end trying to figure out just how it locks up and where it locks up. And VERY tightly. Maybe I should try putting in a shorter guide rod myself and see what happens. I guess it cant hurt to try. I appreciate the help. Mr. Pitiful

March 23, 2005, 06:41 PM	#5
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	I never recommend full length guide rods in Commander size 1911's. I don't think my reasons matter here. The Commander bushing is shorter: The recoil spring plug is shorter: the recoil spring is shorter. All of these are Commander Specific Parts. I would guess that something is out of kilter here and that is causing it to batter slightly. My advice? Install the correct parts all the way and DO NOT use a shok-buff. The correct recoil spring weight is 18 LBS. The correct mainspring weight is 23 LBS. I hope this helps.

March 23, 2005, 07:22 PM	#6
mr. pitiful Member Join Date: March 26, 2000 Posts: 42	It does help. I purchased this gun years ago and sold it to a freind. I bought it back, sent the slide off for a dovetail, and when I got it back, all of the problems started. The recoil spring that I took out of it is a VERY worn out 9lb spring, the guide rod is full length, and there was a shock buff in it. I know it worked with this setup for quite a while for him, but I suppose it finally gave out with that system. I will try all of the original parts and see how it goes hopefully this weekend. Thanks. Mr. Pitiful

March 26, 2005, 11:24 PM	#8
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	On the full length guide rod make sure the top of the back side of the recoil shield is angled so it will not bind on the lower lug or what some will term as the foot of the barrel. Also what 1911Tuner said about clamping the slide in the mill vice may be causing some of the problem. I personally use a slide jig bolted to my mill table on my mill when cutting sights on a slide, prevents the above mentioned problem and does not leave any marks on the side of the slide. Also is the slide and frame rails good and clean no overlooked metal chips from milling the sight dovetail. Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

March 27, 2005, 01:16 PM	#10
mr. pitiful Member Join Date: March 26, 2000 Posts: 42	Thank you all for all the help. And Thanks again Hunter Customs, this has been about the third or fourth time you have helped me. If I cannot get it to work, I may end up sending it to you. Thanks again. Mr. Pitiful

March 28, 2005, 02:44 PM	#11
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	If the slide were pinched bad enough to cause a problem, I do not not think the gun would cycle at all. Let us know how this works out.

March 28, 2005, 03:45 PM	#13
Bill Z Member Join Date: May 30, 2004 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 97	With the shockbuff now out of it, it may be possible that the slide is going back farther and getting 'jammed' on the tips of the rails. Detail strip the pistol down to bare frame and slide and dry it off. Paint up the leading egdge of the rails and slip the slide on all the way back. Does it bind? You should be able to see where by the missing marker color on the rail if this is it. Apply a judicious file or stone as necessary. I have encountered this when fitting a new slide and frame together every time. Bill __________________ Patriot Customs

March 28, 2005, 03:50 PM	#14
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	Guide Rod head per Hunter Customs Post.

March 30, 2005, 11:06 PM	#15
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	mr. pitiful You are welcome for any assistance I may have given you. I actually bevel my recoil shields more than the one in the picture. My bevel extends all the way to the top of the shield. What this does is let the barrel unlock without binding on the recoil shield of the guide rod. Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

March 31, 2005, 11:23 AM	#16
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	The one pictured is a factory guide rod from King's. The ones I use now all have the bevel done at the factory. I like the One Piece CMC Guide Rods. They can be cut to Commander size, also.