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September 10, 2010, 11:44 PM | #1 | |
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Firearms dealer goes to jail, straw purchaser goes free
I searched for the name "Copeland" in all forums so this should not be a repeat thread.
It seems that the government is more interested in going after citizens of this country for selling a firearm than they are for going after an illegal alien for purchasing a firearm. This is a sad state of affairs and threatens every dealer out there. SOURCE Quote:
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
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September 11, 2010, 09:59 AM | #2 |
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Not being familiar with the real facts (only a newspaper report), I fail to understand why folks are up in arms about this.
Class, can we answer the question of why the straw purchaser went free? Are we familiar with how the CJS works? WildmoremanufacturedoutragebasedonignoranceAlaska ™©2002-2010 |
September 11, 2010, 02:34 PM | #3 |
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The middleman purchaser cut a deal. Pretty common in drug cases.
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September 11, 2010, 02:53 PM | #4 |
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I see why.
The dealer did what they were required to do. They did the paperwork. Dude has a legit license and that makes it harder. In my state you are required by law to present a Birth Certificate, naturalization papers (forgot the actual name of the document, doesn't concern me), so on and so forth. I don't mind, cuts down on this kind of crap. The middle man is the one who should be locked up. He bought a firearm on false pretenses and should be arrested tried and convicted, not the dealer. Chances are the dealer did what was required.
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September 11, 2010, 03:14 PM | #5 |
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way that I see it: the Middle Man probably cut a deal with a member of the police force/ATF/court system who doesn't like guns. So, an illegal immigrant who knowingly broke the law got off scott-free for selling out a hard working citizen because of someone's stigma towards guns.
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September 11, 2010, 03:36 PM | #6 |
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I read the story, I read the court document and the ATF Report.
He was not a FFL Holder I feel outraged that there are people out there like this passing themselves off as responsible gun owners and wanting me to be outraged because he was responsible for the acts that led to his conviction. Am I surprised that the guy in the middle off this got off. Not at all he was probably cut a deal by the ATF to be a witness. Whatever just happened to reporting the facts in a story instead of trying to manufacture false outrage?
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September 11, 2010, 06:42 PM | #7 |
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I believe anyone, and I mean anyone, that doesn't follow the law in their state when transferring firearms, is an idiot period, and should pay the price! All the people that are involved in any illegal sale or purchase that knowingly participated should be prosecuted.
Flame On!
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September 12, 2010, 02:35 AM | #8 |
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As it turns out the guy was not a "dealer" but a hobbyist who sells firearms.
If the police who were following the illegals around are not allowed by law to "profile" these people, how is it expected that a common citizen should do so? The person had a valid ID issued by the state, which apparently did not ask about, nor care about, his immigration status. There is a good (actually bad) reason for this. They are not allowed, by law, to ask about his immigration status. That person then took that valid ID and subsequently used it to commit a crime. How is the common citizen expected to act in such a situation? The ID is valid, so are they expected to refuse the sale based upon a biased "profile" of the buyer? We all know that the racist accusations would be flying in such a case. Copeland was apparently expected to believe that these guys were illegals based upon the fact that they were Hispanic, spoke Spanish, and wore cowboy clothing. Profiling anyone?
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
September 12, 2010, 07:04 AM | #9 |
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When I first read the 'spin' on this I was up in arms too..
then someone posted a link to the Texas State Rifle Associations take on it:
https://www.tsra.com/index.php?optio...alk&Itemid=113 Maybe I'm being one sided... but when the Texas State Rifle Association says the guy was an idiot.... (well, not in those words...but you can get the drift in the article) Seems that the guy along with everyone else at the gun show was forewarned by the ATF (for right or wrong).... then this guy Copeland sold a gun in a transaction that the very dimmest of us would have known was suspect.... If I say I'm going to hit you in the head with a hammer and I go and get a hammer and I swing it over my head and start to bring it down.... don't then tell me you had no idea what I was about to do..... |
September 12, 2010, 10:15 AM | #10 |
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Good catch, Blume.
My opinion on this hasn't changed. From the first, I thought this guy was a idjut. The TSRA article only confirms it. Yes, I think it is a shame that the buyers are seldom, if ever, prosecuted (along with the seller), but that is the way it is and most of us know it. Jimpeel, it's apparent that Copeland knew a straw purchase was going down. If he had any inkling of the laws (which from the TSRA article, he did), he also knew that he was committing a felony. I have no sympathy for him. The law is, what it is. We obey the law, even while working to change it. Mr. Copeland it appears, would rather scream that it's his bloody constitutional right, while being dragged off to jail. Rather than working with others for change, and doing things in a manner that helps all gun owners, Copeland shows us the lone-wolf strategy. Never worked before, doesn't work now. |
September 12, 2010, 11:30 PM | #11 | |||
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Quote:
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That sounds very much like what I stated in the thread header. How either of you could come to the conclusion that the TSRA is calling him an idiot, or that he knew he was committing a felony, is beyond comprehension. They, in fact, say exactly the opposite.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
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September 13, 2010, 06:55 AM | #12 | |
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Blume, thanks for the link:
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2. The seller violated the rules of the gunshow. Gunshow rules required that all sales go through a licensed firearms dealer. 3. Exhibitors at that gunshow were well aware that they would be under close scrutiny. 4. Millions of illegal aliens have drivers licenses. At every gunshow there are those unlicensed sellers who are selling off their "private collections". Some of these guys sell dozens of guns every year. Last edited by thallub; September 13, 2010 at 07:09 AM. |
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September 13, 2010, 09:23 AM | #13 | |
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September 13, 2010, 10:11 AM | #14 | |
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Never said that we need any new laws: i do not see any need for new laws either. But the BATFE, state and local police need to step up to the plate and enforce existing federal law. |
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September 13, 2010, 10:45 AM | #15 | ||||
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September 13, 2010, 10:59 AM | #16 |
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"How either of you could come to the conclusion that the TSRA is calling him an idiot, or that he knew he was committing a felony, is beyond comprehension."
It's in the article. He said he broke the rules because it was his right. He's an idiot. "When we talked with him on the phone and asked him why he broke the "rules" of the show, he said, "By golly, it's my constitutional right."" |
September 13, 2010, 11:08 AM | #17 | |
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The relevant laws say that: -the seller cannot sell the gun if they have a reason to believe that the buyer is not qualified (being in the country illegally, having a felony conviction etc, not being resident in the state in the case of a handgun sale etc.) -the buyer is guilty of being in possession of a firearm while in the country illegally -the buyer is also guilty of transferring a gun to someone who they have reason to believe is not qualified (due to being in the country illegally) -the final recipient is guilty of being in possession of a firearm while in the country illegally. If you sell a gun to someone in a private sale knowing that they intend to transfer it to someone else, this is not a crime in itself. You have to have a reason to believe that the person you're selling to is disqualified. |
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September 13, 2010, 12:44 PM | #18 | |
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I haven't seen the specific federal law he was convicted of violating and the news reports haven't been too helpful in that regard. I am guessing he ran afoul of 18 USC 922 (a)(5):
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Also note that with this fact pattern it doesn't matter whether the buyers are three hispanic guys from Mexico or three white American citizens in overalls from Iowa. |
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September 13, 2010, 01:25 PM | #19 | |
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After all, the guy he transferred the firearm to did in fact had a Texas drivers's license. The worst thing is that the guy who walked free was in a much better position to know this fact than the seller was. But he wouldn't have made much of an example from the ATF's point of view - that's why they went after the seller. Really the fact that he ignored the rules of the gun show should not count as evidence against him. It might be ignorant but I'm pretty sure it's not a crime - and it doesn't indicate that he knew the guy was an illegal alien or a non-resident. I hope he appeals and wins. |
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September 13, 2010, 02:26 PM | #20 |
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"But the BATFE, state and local police need to step up to the plate and enforce existing federal law."
How do you propose that the state and local police enforce federal law? <scratches head> Do they have access to the federal court system? Maybe you meant refer the info to the federal authorities for review? |
September 13, 2010, 02:31 PM | #21 |
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Based on the recommendation for prosecution that Fox News linked to, it appears they charged him with both crimes:
1. Selling to someone he should have known was an illegal alien 2. Selling to someone he should have known was not a resident of Texas Based on the ATF Report, the ATF, who had been following the illegal immigrants via undercover officers, witnessed the following transaction: The three Mexicans (Huerta Sr., Aviles and Huerta Jr.) negotiated for a price on the handgun via Huerta Sr. and Huerta Jr who interpreted. Aviles handed Copeland the cash for the handgun and Copeland asked for an ID for the receipt. Huerta Sr. handed him his ID and Copeland responded "No, the cash has to come from the guy who has the ID." Aviles then handed the cash to Huerta who handed it to Copeland. Copeland handed the handgun to Huerta Sr. who immediately handed it to Aviles. Copeland then said "No, no, no. I sold you the gun. You have to hold the gun." and Aviles handed the gun back to Huerta. Also worth noting is that Aviles brother tried to buy a rifle from another non-FFL at the show. That deal fell through when the non-FFL wouldn't deal with Aviles's brother when he refused to show ID. The ATF report also indicates that Copeland had an assault/child abuse conviction in Maryland for which he served 2 years probation and that he may be potentially unable to legally own firearms to begin with. It also includes several affidavits from other gun show attendees saying that Copeland has been selling guns every month at the gun show going back 5-6 years - which kind of makes his status as a private seller disposing of his collection questionable. All in all, not the best set of facts to create a big pro-RKBA uproar over. |
September 13, 2010, 05:00 PM | #22 |
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Copeland was a regular on the gunshow circuit. He was known for running his mouth about how he did not need a federal firearms license. According to witnesses, Copeland threatened to shoot it out with the BATFE if they attempted to arrest him. i will shed no tears for Mr. Copeland.
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/...pelandCase.pdf |
September 13, 2010, 09:19 PM | #23 |
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The gun show had rules but rules of a private entity are not codified law. That he went against the rules of this private entity has nothing whatsoever to do with this case. That he knowingly broke codified law has everything to do with this case.
If everything posted here is factual then he was, indeed, an idiot. Assuming that what is posted here is accurate: If Huerta Sr. had presented the ID, and had produced the money from his own pocket, this thread would likely never have been posted. Where he went wrong was that he watched Aviles hand the money to Huerta Sr.; and that was enough evidence to show that Aviles was a party to the purchase. At that point, it made no difference as to whether Huerta Sr. had a valid drivers license or not. The problem with this case, and for which the TSRA is so incensed, is the fact that the criminal which instigated this crime is still running free to do the same thing to the next guy. That person could be a licensed dealer, pawn broker, etc. merely trying to ply their trade under the strictest scrutiny of any product in existence. This is the real threat. As TSRA so aptly put it, "As long as the prosecution for a straw purchase does not focus on the criminal-purchaser, all dealers are at risk including gun stores, a pawn shops, any FFL, much less a private dealer." Rallying around, or expressing enmity toward, Copeland is not the issue. The issue is that a United States citizen, entrapped by his own government and his own stupidity, is going to jail while a foreign national is free to roam the streets of this nation unmolested. Regardless, Copeland will do far less time for this act than he would for inadvertently bringing a couple of shot shells across the border into Mexico.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
September 14, 2010, 08:45 AM | #24 | ||
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So even though Mr. Copeland did not break any state or federal laws by not going through an FFL, he did create additional evidence that made his legal case worse. Quote:
So what is the complaint? That American citizens should get first right of refusal on the chance to sell out their criminal co-conspirators? |
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September 14, 2010, 09:06 AM | #25 | |
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Quote:
If their rules are that you need a FFL to sell guns, then WHY did this non-FFL have a table(setup) to sell at this gun show. Why did they allow him there w/o a license?
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