pump 20g, short barrel, no PG, lots of shells?

hologon · November 2, 1999, 02:32 PM

I'm looking for a HD pump shotgun. The 870's and the 500's don't seem to fit my criteria, and I was hoping for some advice.

From what I've read here (and a frightening experience watching the rangemaster rapid-fire (4) 20gauge slugs), I think I'll settle with a 20.

A pump is important for reliability.

I'd like something with a short barrel, but full-size (I tried out a 870 Youth and a Bantam and the are definitely too short for comfort.) Something that's 26" looks way too long to hold in a house.

No pistol grip. (Thin wrists, and I just like the feel of the regular stock when its mounted.)

Of course, I'd like as many shells as possible. Does the 870 have a replaceable magazine to hold 6+ (rather than 4)? Are the mossbergs the only ones with the weird tube instead of the mag?

I'd prefer something synthetic, but this isn't so important as the three points above. The Mossberg Persuader looks good except for the damn pistol grip.

Is there anything out there that works? Can I take the PG off the Persuader? Or how much will it cost to replace?

Thanks!

-Jon

Skorzeny · November 2, 1999, 02:47 PM

Hologon:

I am glad that you plan to get a 20 gauge, but why in the world is a 21" barrel "too long for comfort" if you mean to use it for home defense?

Seems to me, for home defense, you want the shotgun barrel to be as legally short as possible for the sake of better maneuverability as well as superior retention.

In fact, I think that 21" is kinda pushing it. My wife and I have a Remington 870 Express in 20 gauge, with the stock cut to 13" length of pull and the barrel cut to 18 1/2". It is very handy and maneuverable around the house.

Increased barrel length is really for long-range shooting only. For home defense, you really ought to stick as close to 18" (legal limit) as possible.

Just my two bits.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

Josh D · November 2, 1999, 10:35 PM

Why don't you get what I have? I have a 20ga Remington 870 Express Magnum. Has a magnum reciever, and will shoot 3in rounds, if needed. This is a full size gun. Not too bad of a handler with the 26in bird barrel on it, but I bought a 21in deer barrel with rifle sights. WOW! Talk about quick. I plan on getting a magazine extention when I get some extra money. Bushmaster's website has them.

You can buy synthetic stocks for them, I think. The wood works fine for me. You also have the capability to change the round in the chamber while keeping a full magazine, I just figured out how to do this yesterday. The only complaint I have with this gun is that it rusts easily. Forget RemOil. Use CLP or something heavier on the reciever. One plus is that you can get one for around $225, and at that price, I drag it around in the mud and brush deer hunting without tears

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Don't turn around, uh oh oh, der kommisar is in town, uh oh oh!

Dave McC · November 3, 1999, 05:34 AM

We meet again, Hologon(G). Choate makes a 2 round extension of the 20 ga 870 mag tube.I like it for recoil taming more than the extra rounds. Face it, an A-S scenario that requires more than 4 shotgun rounds for resolution needs backup more than mo' ammo.

A Rem Youth Express in 20 ga with the Choate extender handles like an M-1 carbine.

There's still some kick, but it's not the bite you'd expect.

Skorzeny · November 3, 1999, 11:57 AM

Unless I am wrong, the Choate magazine extender for a Remington 870 20 gauge is for the older LT model only and will NOT fit 20 gauge Express models.

I could be wrong, but at least that's what the tech folks at Bushmaster told me.

I surely wish that weren't so, because I'd love to put an extension on my Rem 870 Express in 20 gauge.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

Dave McC · November 3, 1999, 12:00 PM

A good friend has one on a Youth Express. Maybe they were discontinued, but I'm sure more field grades have been sold than the LWs.

hologon · November 5, 1999, 09:23 AM

Skorzeny:

Oops! Let me clarify that:

What I meant is that the "pull" (???) (the rear-of-stock-to-trigger) distance was too short on the Bantam/Youth models (felt like my arm was all bent up and not nearly as comfortable as the full-size full-pull-length ones) BUT the 26" barrel on the regular 20gauge "hunting" shotguns are too long for in-house use.

-Jon

Skorzeny · November 5, 1999, 11:18 AM

Dave McC:

Those 20 gauge Rem 870 mag extensions must have been discontinued.

I went to Choate's website and could not find any.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

Dave McC · November 6, 1999, 09:50 AM

Thanks, Skorzeny, I guess I shoulda picked one up when I could. 20-20 hindsight.....

Some narcs of my acquaintance had made up raid guns like this,20 ga with extended mag, tactical lite and butt cuff. Even with all the extras, those weapons handled fast and sure.Those guys were also into the Para Ordnances with Trituim sights. Guess if I was a Baltimore Drug cop I'd want at least one of each....

Puddle Pirate · November 8, 1999, 12:41 AM

I'd try one of Remington's "slug guns." I have a 12 ga combo, Long barrel for skeet and rabbit, short with rifle sights for HD. Mossberg has the same kind of thing.

------------------
I gotta get a cheaper hobby.

Beano · November 8, 1999, 07:46 PM

Dear jon,

Twenty guage is fine. Standard length of pull on an adult stock is usually around 14 - 14 1/2 inches. I would think that anything between 13in and 14in should be fine for you as you have indicated that you are not big.

Seek advice from someone familiar with shotgun 'fit'. He/She does not need to be an expert and only needs to be able to determine if the stock is too long or too short for you.

It may be possible for you to determine this yourself. When the shotgun is mounted your right hand should have a natural bend at the elbow of approximately 90degrees. It comes from the shoulder, bends at the elbow goes to the grip on the shotgun. Your left hand will be straighter, but not straight as it holds the fore end.You should be holding the approximate middle of the fore end. Above all you must be comfortable. Grip is firm but not tight.

Do you know what the comb of the stock is? Its on the top of the stock and the little hump between where the stock attaches to the gun (the receiver) and the back of the stock (the Heel). As your cheek rests on the stock in its natural position, your nose should be about an inch back of the comb. This is a good indicator of whether the stock is too long or short. However, like most indicators it is important that the gun is mounted correctly.

With regard to the number of cartridges. Four is quite enough in most single or double intruder situations although six does feel better. It is much more important to be competent shooting the thing as the first shot will not stop a badguy if you miss or fail to hit a non critical area. Shotguns do not guarantee hits.

After you have learned to shoot AND TO RELOAD WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK, buy or have cut an 18 inch barrel (shortest legal). If you can find an extension mag, put'er on, the extra weight up front will help balance the weapon. Load with buckshot, 00 is devastating.

The most important thing is not to panic under pressure and to make the first shot really count. You can always fire the warning shot into the roof once the badguy is dead. Also remember that Deadguys tell no tales i.e. lies in court (a lot less grief).

Guns and Gun Accessorizing, we live for this, but realistically it is secondary to shooting skills in the face of a SERIOUS THREAT. You will not have time to ask the guy to hold on while you get your gun or please wait while you check on your stock length. You've got to be able to grab the gun and shoot the guy, DEAD. I don't mean to sound rude but I do feel that you are concerning yourself with little stuff that really makes little difference to experienced shotgunners. If you are worried about home defence you must LEARN TO SHOOT shotguns. It must be second nature, then most of these questions will answer themselves as they will simply be personal preferences and you will configure your gun to suit yourself.

Opinion only, I may be wrong.
ENJOY SHOTGUNNING and try ISSF Skeet

November 2, 1999, 02:32 PM	#1
hologon Member Join Date: September 17, 1999 Posts: 69	I'm looking for a HD pump shotgun. The 870's and the 500's don't seem to fit my criteria, and I was hoping for some advice. From what I've read here (and a frightening experience watching the rangemaster rapid-fire (4) 20gauge slugs), I think I'll settle with a 20. A pump is important for reliability. I'd like something with a short barrel, but full-size (I tried out a 870 Youth and a Bantam and the are definitely too short for comfort.) Something that's 26" looks way too long to hold in a house. No pistol grip. (Thin wrists, and I just like the feel of the regular stock when its mounted.) Of course, I'd like as many shells as possible. Does the 870 have a replaceable magazine to hold 6+ (rather than 4)? Are the mossbergs the only ones with the weird tube instead of the mag? I'd prefer something synthetic, but this isn't so important as the three points above. The Mossberg Persuader looks good except for the damn pistol grip. Is there anything out there that works? Can I take the PG off the Persuader? Or how much will it cost to replace? Thanks! -Jon

November 2, 1999, 02:47 PM	#2
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	Hologon: I am glad that you plan to get a 20 gauge, but why in the world is a 21" barrel "too long for comfort" if you mean to use it for home defense? Seems to me, for home defense, you want the shotgun barrel to be as legally short as possible for the sake of better maneuverability as well as superior retention. In fact, I think that 21" is kinda pushing it. My wife and I have a Remington 870 Express in 20 gauge, with the stock cut to 13" length of pull and the barrel cut to 18 1/2". It is very handy and maneuverable around the house. Increased barrel length is really for long-range shooting only. For home defense, you really ought to stick as close to 18" (legal limit) as possible. Just my two bits. Skorzeny ------------------ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

November 2, 1999, 10:35 PM	#3
Josh D Member Join Date: June 30, 1999 Posts: 76	Why don't you get what I have? I have a 20ga Remington 870 Express Magnum. Has a magnum reciever, and will shoot 3in rounds, if needed. This is a full size gun. Not too bad of a handler with the 26in bird barrel on it, but I bought a 21in deer barrel with rifle sights. WOW! Talk about quick. I plan on getting a magazine extention when I get some extra money. Bushmaster's website has them. You can buy synthetic stocks for them, I think. The wood works fine for me. You also have the capability to change the round in the chamber while keeping a full magazine, I just figured out how to do this yesterday. The only complaint I have with this gun is that it rusts easily. Forget RemOil. Use CLP or something heavier on the reciever. One plus is that you can get one for around $225, and at that price, I drag it around in the mud and brush deer hunting without tears ------------------ Don't turn around, uh oh oh, der kommisar is in town, uh oh oh!

November 3, 1999, 05:34 AM	#4
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	We meet again, Hologon(G). Choate makes a 2 round extension of the 20 ga 870 mag tube.I like it for recoil taming more than the extra rounds. Face it, an A-S scenario that requires more than 4 shotgun rounds for resolution needs backup more than mo' ammo. A Rem Youth Express in 20 ga with the Choate extender handles like an M-1 carbine. There's still some kick, but it's not the bite you'd expect.

November 3, 1999, 11:57 AM	#5
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	Unless I am wrong, the Choate magazine extender for a Remington 870 20 gauge is for the older LT model only and will NOT fit 20 gauge Express models. I could be wrong, but at least that's what the tech folks at Bushmaster told me. I surely wish that weren't so, because I'd love to put an extension on my Rem 870 Express in 20 gauge. Skorzeny ------------------ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

November 3, 1999, 12:00 PM	#6
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	A good friend has one on a Youth Express. Maybe they were discontinued, but I'm sure more field grades have been sold than the LWs.

November 5, 1999, 09:23 AM	#7
hologon Member Join Date: September 17, 1999 Posts: 69	Skorzeny: Oops! Let me clarify that: What I meant is that the "pull" (???) (the rear-of-stock-to-trigger) distance was too short on the Bantam/Youth models (felt like my arm was all bent up and not nearly as comfortable as the full-size full-pull-length ones) BUT the 26" barrel on the regular 20gauge "hunting" shotguns are too long for in-house use. -Jon

November 5, 1999, 11:18 AM	#8
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	Dave McC: Those 20 gauge Rem 870 mag extensions must have been discontinued. I went to Choate's website and could not find any. Skorzeny ------------------ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

November 6, 1999, 09:50 AM	#9
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks, Skorzeny, I guess I shoulda picked one up when I could. 20-20 hindsight..... Some narcs of my acquaintance had made up raid guns like this,20 ga with extended mag, tactical lite and butt cuff. Even with all the extras, those weapons handled fast and sure.Those guys were also into the Para Ordnances with Trituim sights. Guess if I was a Baltimore Drug cop I'd want at least one of each....

November 8, 1999, 12:41 AM	#10
Puddle Pirate Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 1999 Location: Indy Posts: 128	I'd try one of Remington's "slug guns." I have a 12 ga combo, Long barrel for skeet and rabbit, short with rifle sights for HD. Mossberg has the same kind of thing. ------------------ I gotta get a cheaper hobby.

November 8, 1999, 07:46 PM	#11
Beano Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Barbados Posts: 28	Dear jon, Twenty guage is fine. Standard length of pull on an adult stock is usually around 14 - 14 1/2 inches. I would think that anything between 13in and 14in should be fine for you as you have indicated that you are not big. Seek advice from someone familiar with shotgun 'fit'. He/She does not need to be an expert and only needs to be able to determine if the stock is too long or too short for you. It may be possible for you to determine this yourself. When the shotgun is mounted your right hand should have a natural bend at the elbow of approximately 90degrees. It comes from the shoulder, bends at the elbow goes to the grip on the shotgun. Your left hand will be straighter, but not straight as it holds the fore end.You should be holding the approximate middle of the fore end. Above all you must be comfortable. Grip is firm but not tight. Do you know what the comb of the stock is? Its on the top of the stock and the little hump between where the stock attaches to the gun (the receiver) and the back of the stock (the Heel). As your cheek rests on the stock in its natural position, your nose should be about an inch back of the comb. This is a good indicator of whether the stock is too long or short. However, like most indicators it is important that the gun is mounted correctly. With regard to the number of cartridges. Four is quite enough in most single or double intruder situations although six does feel better. It is much more important to be competent shooting the thing as the first shot will not stop a badguy if you miss or fail to hit a non critical area. Shotguns do not guarantee hits. After you have learned to shoot AND TO RELOAD WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK, buy or have cut an 18 inch barrel (shortest legal). If you can find an extension mag, put'er on, the extra weight up front will help balance the weapon. Load with buckshot, 00 is devastating. The most important thing is not to panic under pressure and to make the first shot really count. You can always fire the warning shot into the roof once the badguy is dead. Also remember that Deadguys tell no tales i.e. lies in court (a lot less grief). Guns and Gun Accessorizing, we live for this, but realistically it is secondary to shooting skills in the face of a SERIOUS THREAT. You will not have time to ask the guy to hold on while you get your gun or please wait while you check on your stock length. You've got to be able to grab the gun and shoot the guy, DEAD. I don't mean to sound rude but I do feel that you are concerning yourself with little stuff that really makes little difference to experienced shotgunners. If you are worried about home defence you must LEARN TO SHOOT shotguns. It must be second nature, then most of these questions will answer themselves as they will simply be personal preferences and you will configure your gun to suit yourself. Opinion only, I may be wrong. ENJOY SHOTGUNNING and try ISSF Skeet