Wolf primers defective??

[medalguy]

I've been usine Wolf primers lately and I've had quite a few of them defective. Some trays have 1 or 2 primers missing the anvil as I open up the tray. I've also had a few primer anvils just drop out of the primer cup as I'm picking them up with the tube.

Anyone else seeing this? I've probably used 25,000 Remington primers in the past 2 years and never seen a single defective primer, I estimate 1 out of every 200 Wolf primers are defective.

[BDS-THR]

What lot number do you have? Are the primer cups nickel or brass? Are these small or large primers?

At THR.org forum, we identified a batch of Wolf small pistol primer that had harder cup than usual (nickel plated) but not missing anvils.

[floydster]

Wow! I have been using Wolf/Tula primers for the last several years, at least 25,000 and never a problem one.

[medalguy]

Lot 14-09, large rifle primers, nickel cups. All I've used thus far are LR and I bought them on price so I really can't complain too much about the percentage of bad ones. It's just a pain in the butt trying to use these in a Dillon because when I encounter a bad one in the process of loading it's a big time stoppage to fix it.

[chris in va]

No missing anvils, but one in 10 would misfire in my 45ACP reloads. It's come to my attention the Wolf primers need to be seated very hard compared to the other brands.

[warningshot]

I never knew what primer problems were until I started using Wolfe.

[floydster]

Seat the primers like you mean it, your problems will be solved.

[l98ster]

I was shooting a competition this weekend, and was squaded with a guy that was having really bad ammo problems. Primer strikes looked good, but no BANG!!

He was using wolf primers, and for the rest of the day, all the squad heard was this guy bitching about Wolf primers. He had called wolf several times before concerning this, but they are not correcting the condition to his satisfaction.

Normally, wolf primers had worked fine. They tend to run slightly big, so seating them takes some effort. If a primer is not seated flush against the bottom of the primer pocket, you will probably get a fail to fire. In a situation like this, the first strike on the primer seats it, and the second one goes bang.

I personally stick with winchester small pistol primers for my 9 and 38, and have never had a problem.

-George

[BDS-THR]

If a primer is not seated flush against the bottom of the primer pocket, you will probably get a fail to fire.

No, primers need to be seated below flush (0.004" below) to properly set the anvil against the priming compound in the cup.

Some lot of nickel colored SP Wolf primers have been known to have harder primer cup and harder to ignite. So far, no complaint about brass/bronze colored SP/LP primers. Been shooting 15K+ "bronze" colored Wolf LP since last year without issues. BTW, among bench rest precision shooters, Wolf primers are highly regarded. Also have shot TulAmmo (essentially same as Wolf) LP primers with consistent ignition. Yes both Wolf/TulAmmo LP is a bit larger than Winchester LP, so be sure to seat them to the right seating depth.

Here's a primer on primer seating from Forster (scroll 2/3 way down the page):
The following three drawings illustrate the critical nature of accurate primer seating.

Illus. 1: IMPROPERLY SEATED - This primer is improperly seated, preventing the cups of the primers from resting solidly on the bottom of the primer. Some primer cups measure .120” in height, and if seated with crowns more than .004” below the case head, the anvil would be forced through the crown, rendering the primer useless.

Illus. 2: IMPROPERLY SEATED - This primer is improperly seated too high. A high primer is erratic in performance. It is also dangerous and could explode in the chamber of a rifle when the breech block closes on it before it is locked.

Illus. 3: PROPERLY SEATED - This primer is properly seated, exactly as it would be with our Co-Ax® Reloading Press. The crown is .004” below the surface of the case head; the anvils are on the bottom of the primer well; and the primer mix is properly stressed by the anvil for sensitivity. It is also much safer than either of the two seated primers shown above.

[BDS-THR]

Here's some articles on primer testing from The Rifleman's Journal.

I tell you, these guys are hard core.

[Double Naught Spy]

If a primer is not seated flush against the bottom of the primer pocket, you will probably get a fail to fire.

No, primers need to be seated below flush (0.004" below) to properly set the anvil against the priming compound in the cup.

I think you misread. You can't seat a primer below flush of the bottom of the primer pocket without seating it inside the powder compartment.

So flush with the bottom of the primer pocket and not necessarily flush with the bottom of the round itself.

[BDS-THR]

New October Rifleman's Journal article on Wolf primers (scroll halfway down the page).

Primers and Priming
If you want ammunition with single digit SD, you are going to spend a fair amount of time working with primers - unless you happen to get lucky, but I wouldn't count on luck. Once you have the case necks turned, you can begin working with primers. Although my own primer testing has been incredibly detailed, maybe even obsessive, you don't need to go that far. Here's the shortcut that really pays off: test your primers by shooting each with a standard load over the chrono, varying only the primer. Fire at least 10 and preferably 20 of each primer type. Look for the one that gives the lowest MV and with a low SD although not necessarily the lowest SD (that will come later). That primer should be the one you use as you develop your load, now looking for the lowest SD load by varying powder charge and neck tension. There's a bit of judgment required here, but a low MV on the standard load and a reasonably low SD is the indicator of a good primer compared to the others.


In my testing, I've found the Russian primers to consistently yield the lowest MV and SD. They've been imported as KVB, PMC and Wolf. These primers are on the low end of the SAAMI height range and their cups are thick and hard, so if your ignition system is marginal, it'll show up right away. Improper seating, weak springs, inadequate firing pin protrusion, light firing pins and excessive headspace will all contribute to inconsistent ignition and thus higher SD. In extreme cases you may also experience misfires and that certainly won't do your frame of mind and your score any good.

Seating your primer is far more important than many reloaders realize. Today we live in a digital world and we've developed and on/off mentality. Primers aren't digital, they will fire under less than ideal conditions, but they will do so inconsistently. Perfectly consistent primer seating that ensures the cup is bottomed in the pocket and that a slight pre-load has been applied to the pellet by the anvil is a requirement of great long-range ammunition. There's no substitute for a high quality seating tool that gives you great feel for the process and the experience to use it well. I use the Sinclair tool, the K&M also meets the criteria.

[medalguy]

Guys you're off subject. My problem is not seating proerly, but missing anvils and anvils dropping out of the primers while I'm picking them up. Anyone else seeing this, or did I just buy a batch of bad primers? I hope not because I have 55,000 of them still left.

[Unclenick]

Sounds like you got a bad batch. If they're all that same lot number you gave, I would contact Wolf about replacing them. If they won't stand behind the product, let us know, as that information is useful in and of itself.

Wolf is an importer buying the primers packaged for their trademarked brand. The OEM is KVB, in Russia. Shooters in Russia and in other countries across the pond are, in general, more picky than many American hobbyists, so it surprises me that this has occurred. Tula is another brand that KVB is the OEM for, so they are the exact same product. Even though they are of the same origin, Tula may be a better company to deal right now as they are newer and trying to build a reputation. But I haven't had any dealings with Wolf or Tula, so I don't know. That's just speculation on my part. So call Wolf and ask what they can do?


BDS-THR,

I think you must have missed the new policy notification on inserting copyrighted material into posts. Might want to check it out.

[Cildian]

I use mainly Wolf LP primers, Id prefer CCI or Winchester, but given the current primer situation it's easier for me to get my hands on Wolf primers at times.
I mainly use them for target practice, but so far I havent had any misfires with the primers Ive used so far. Just my .02 worth.

[warningshot]

Yea, right.

[BDS-THR]

Unclenick, will do.

warningshot, talk to some bench shooters and you'll be surprised. These guys are OCD about component selection and will use what will give them the slightest edge in accuracy.

[Unclenick]

Warningshot,

BDS is correct. As I mentioned before, the shooters across the pond are picky, but that's not the only reason. Benchrest shooters are always in search of the mildest possible primers. They stuff their cases with powder so they don't need extrap priming strength to build pressure in empty space. By staying with the mildest primers, they are reducing the primer's role in the final pressure reached, and instead are controlling it more with the powder charge precision, which they like to do. The KVB primers sold by Wolfe and Tula are the mildest available here since RWS stopped selling to the U.S. market. Here's a test of large rifle primer strength that includes KVB, as an example.

[orionengnr]

There was a similar (identical) thread either here or on THR very recently (<30 days). I posted on that one, and don't remember where it is, so I'll recap:

Yes, I purchased 2-3000 Wolf LPP within the last year or so--it was all I could find, so I bought them.

I had an unprecedented number of failures to ignite. Not hundreds, but perhaps a 5% rate. Second or third strikes failed to ignite as well.

Disassembly revealed several missing anvils. Whether they disappeared in the box, or during priming is unclear.

That they were not correctly assembled seems likely. I have not bought any more Wolf primers, nor will I (unless they are all that is available).

[BDS-THR]

Whether they disappeared in the box, or during priming is unclear.

Well, can you verify the rest of the box and see if any are missing anvils?

I have gone through 10K+ Wolf LP (brass cup) and PMC SP (brass cup) primers since last year due to shortage and have not experienced any missing anvil or failure to ignite.

Most of people who reported Wolf FTF primer problems I had experience with were due to slightly larger primer cup size that weren't seated all the way down the primer pocket. Once the primers were seated deeper, no more FTF.

I do believe there was a small lot of nickel colored Wolf SP primers last year that had harder cups that WERE indeed harder to ignite. I think we are past this now unless you bought an older nickel colored SP primer of the same lot.

I really think the Wolf primer issue is from not seating them deeper.

[warningshot]

I think I wil stand on the shoulders of those who have Wolfe primer issues and stick to primer brands that have no QC issues.

[BDS-THR]

Wolf primer cups (especially LP) are indeed larger than Winchester cups by 0.001" and will require more "ooomph" to seat them properly (0.004" below flush).

I too had to resort to buying Magtech/Wolf/PMC last year with primer shortage as I have been a longtime user of Winchester primers. Now that the price of primers have started to come back down (Powder Valley has Winchester primers for $25/1000 - Happy days again!), I am happy to return to Winchester again.

However, would I have problem using Wolf/TulAmmo primers for my pistol match loads? Of course not. I hand prime all of my match cases, so properly seating them is not a problem for me. I also won't have any problem using Magtech/PMC primers either.

Given the choice, I will gladly support the domestic-made products as I prefer to see my money go to support US companies and families.

[Uncle Buck]

Have you contacted the company and have they replied? If so, what have they said?

If you have not contacted them, why not? They do have a reputation of standing behind what they sell.