Suppose this incident should occur and what do you do?

Doug.38PR · February 7, 2006, 04:45 PM

Suppose you wake up one night and see red and blue lights outside your window. You get up and look out and see in the backyard, not the police, but a UFO coming down out of they sky into your yard. A bright white light opens up from the ship and a half a dozen shadowy figures emerge and start walking towards your house. What would be the best tactic to use on them? Pick them off with an M-1 Carbine from the bedroom window or grab your .38 special and hide in the house and pick them off as they come looking for you. Or should you barricade the door and call the police or better yet the FBI X-Files division? How could you better prepare your home for just such emergency?.................

JUST KIDDING!

This is an indirect response to BillCA's comment on my .357 magnum encounter senario

Quote:

Doug38pr,

Do you lie awake at night thinking of these scenarios?

ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE, HERE IS MY REAL QUESTION:

Suppose you wake up one night and someone is breaking into your house up front (or downstairs). You grab your gun and go to investigate. You catch them. You have your gun on them. You tell them they are covered and to put their hands over their head, turn around facing away from you, get down on their knees, cross them and sit on them, then whip out cell phone and dial 911.
NOW: What do you do if they argue with you or refuse to comply or do anything that attempts to DISTRACT you or TAKE CONTROL out of your hands? Seems to me the proper response rather than arguing with them would be to simply shoot them. Arguing with them means listening to what they are saying and not watching what they are doing. Arguing with them is just making demands with no consequences. Shoot them because they are a threat to you and your home and are not complying. For you to argue or listen to them or any other kind of distraction that allows free movement and noncompliance is putting you in danger of them secretly reaching for a weapon or something of that sort. I would say that was the problem that poor policeman had who got gunned down by that crazy man with the M-1 carbine that we all saw posted on the video on this forum a few weeks back. If I remember right, the policeman kept saying "put your hands up" about a dozen times with the man being allowed to dance around, flop around, curse at him, reach into the truck, load a gun, and open up killing the poor officer. In my view, that SOB should have been dropped the second he started dancing and distracting to test what he could get away with.

Bender711 · February 7, 2006, 04:55 PM

ok first off im not saying any thing to him im just putting a round through his skull, and if he does attempt to taunt me then im putting a few rounds through his chest.
ill let god decide what to do with him from there.

Twycross · February 7, 2006, 04:55 PM

Well, they're not presenting any direct threat to you, so I would find it hard to justify shooting them. "Well, officer, I had to shoot him in self defense because he was arguing with me and wouldn't get on his knees." Something about that just doesn't sound right.

As for the cop-killing you mention, are you really saying that troopers should be able to shoot people who dance around screaming "kill me?" IMHO, that would have been an excellent point to utilize a taser, or OC, or some similar less lethal method.

In the scenario in your home, you are kinda stuck in the same position as the guy who gets jumped and mugged at gunpoint, and then has to stand there watching the BGs leave. You can't take retaliatory action, and in the situation you outline, really all you can do is stall him unless he is some sort of direct threat to you.

Doug.38PR · February 7, 2006, 05:04 PM

in all honesty, I find that absurd and downright dangerous, meaning no disrespect you personally. But seriously these people have violated you and your home. You have caught them and are holding them at gunpoint. until they are under your contol THEY ARE A DANGER. All this talk of "well you could just use some less than lethal means" is like saying "you could just shoot the gun out of their hand" or "shoot them in the leg." Even if you did (and most people don't, that's why they have a gun) have a Tazer or the like that is no guarantee that it will stop them especially if they are pumped up on drugs or such. The bullet is better insurance that their threat will end. Anything else is just a halfway measure that can get you killed.
Yes I think that officer should have been able and should have shot that guy. It was not a matter of the guy dancing, it was a matter of this guy being a danger to the officer. It was a distraction and defiance.
As a little boy, if a dad says to you "don't do that son" and you keep doing it anyway and the dad keeps saying "don't do it, don't do it, one, two, three okay now I mean it" it's not going to change the kids mind unless he knows he will get a spanking. Demands without consequences are hollow. I see parents today do this all the time and their kids have the run of the household

texdawg · February 7, 2006, 05:35 PM

in the house, he's a goner!!!!!!!

TexasSIGMan · February 7, 2006, 05:44 PM

Quote:

in the house, he's a goner!!!!!!!

Sounds about right. At this point he IS a direct threat to me, and I REALLY doubt he will get the chance to comply with my instructions, since I won't be giving any inside my home.

It's too late for that. I can't take chances with negotiations inside my house, there are others that I have to protect before some intruder.

DBOUNCE1 · February 7, 2006, 05:49 PM

You got me

Dwight55 · February 7, 2006, 06:10 PM

At the point they are running their mouth, . . . hands up, . . . they really are not a threat if I have my loaded 1911 or my semi auto shotgun with 7 rounds pointing at two bg's.

When one starts to move, . . . or gives any inclination to me that he feels he is smart enough to move on a drawn gun, . . . local undertakers are going to have business, . . . same goes for #2 when I get done with #1.

May God bless,
Dwight

PS: Same goes for Martians, . . . they just need to crank up that overstuffed saucer and hit the road.

bruchi · February 7, 2006, 06:12 PM

Once you got the guy on his knees, don't say a word, period, unless he asks a reasonable question in a reasonable way, if he taunts you, tries to con you, lay a guilt trip, "I got kids to feed", whatever, do not answer.

I would think that anyone with any common sense will eventually shut up after realizing that's useless trying to get anything verbal going on with someone that is pointing a gun at them and that has every right to blow them away.

If they don't have the sense to see talking is useless, let them blabber as much as they want and make it so like they are talking to a wall, as long as they don't make any threatening moves just ignore them. Words can't hurt you.

If they do move in a theatening way, put them down, permanently, you don't know if they have a blade, a hidden gun or any weapon for that matter and a motivated person can do a lot of damage even if they are hurt.

rex · February 7, 2006, 11:20 PM

I am with bruchi if the BG is complying. If he is refusing to follow my commands, I wouldn't hesitate to drop him.

Doug.38PR · February 7, 2006, 11:30 PM

Right on Buchi and Rex

Mannlicher · February 8, 2006, 07:19 AM

The far out scenerio king

invention_45 · February 8, 2006, 11:40 AM

Depending on the situation, lighting, etc., I might be so afraid I'd have shot already. But let's say it has gone like you say until you wrote "NOW".

Upon the very first sign of refusal to comply, I'd shoot. Now I wouldn't be asking him to stand on one hand, but something like "put your hands up".

I'd try to break commands into how I wanted them done. I.e., rather than say "get your hands where I can see them, then slowly kneel down, not moving your hands, and then lay face-down on the floor with your hands still above your head" which could be easily done wrong by the BG, I'd break it up into short clear commands, allowing compliance to each before issuing the next.

Put your hands up RIGHT NOW.
I'm going to give you a few simple commands. Follow them exactly.
Keep your hands up and get on your knees RIGHT NOW.
Keeping your hands away from your body, down on all fours RIGHT NOW.
Slide your hands away from your body so that you are face down on the floor RIGHT NOW.
Do not move one bit and do not speak one word.

That way I can tell intentional departure from what I want done from failure to understand a complex set of instructions.

I'm in Florida. He's already broken into my house. You better believe I'm SCARED. If, at any time, during any of this, the BG's movements didn't match my commands within 1/2 second, I start shooting. I'd be a very slight bit more tolerant of words, but unless they were something like "like this?", I would shoot if he kept yapping.

Twycross · February 8, 2006, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Yes I think that officer should have been able and should have shot that guy. It was not a matter of the guy dancing, it was a matter of this guy being a danger to the officer.

But until he went back for his gun, he was not a danger to the officer. He was goofing off. Should traffic cops be able to shoot people who won't hand over their driver's licenses?

Quote:

until they are under your contol THEY ARE A DANGER.

A potential danger, not an actual danger. Yeah, if the guy is coming towards you, or reaching for the fireplace poker, by all means blow him away. But if he is just standing there, or starting to leave, I don't see why you can kill him.

Quote:

As a little boy, if a dad says to you "don't do that son" and you keep doing it anyway and the dad keeps saying "don't do it, don't do it, one, two, three okay now I mean it" it's not going to change the kids mind unless he knows he will get a spanking.

True. But this scenario is not really applicable here. Spanking would be the equivalent of a taser, versus throwing the kids out on the street.

Quote:

At the point they are running their mouth, . . . hands up, . . . they really are not a threat if I have my loaded 1911 or my semi auto shotgun with 7 rounds pointing at two bg's.

When one starts to move, . . . or gives any inclination to me that he feels he is smart enough to move on a drawn gun, . . . local undertakers are going to have business, . . . same goes for #2 when I get done with #1.

I think this is a more realistic plan.

Dfariswheel · February 8, 2006, 02:56 PM

The rules for intruders in the house are simple.

First, anyone entering an occupied home at night is NOT NORMAL.
He's ABNORMAL, and you simply don't take chances with your families life.
You simply don't allow strange, abnormal people to make life and death decisions for you and your family.

If you're a generous type person and in a very secure position, you can give him a chance at YOUR option.
ONE chance.
If he fails to obey INSTANTLY, that's HIS decision.
Remember, he's NOT NORMAL.

Second, forget paying any attention to anything he says, and forget the BS about "Watch his eyes".
As any cop can tell you, "Watch his HANDS".
His eyes can't kill you. His hands can.

People who enter occupied homes are so abnormal they are fully capable of anything.
Taking a chance that he won't suddenly engage you before you can shoot, is an absolutely insane risk, leaving your family totally at the mercy of an ABNORMAL person.

You can be assured HE won't be giving you or your family any breaks.

Bottom line, someone so dangerous as to enter an occupied home has "punched his own ticket" and whatever happens is HIS responsibility.

The hard fact is, for any home owner to take any chances whatsoever with an intruder is tantamount to suicide.

invention_45 · February 8, 2006, 03:51 PM

bruchi:

I don't think I would let him prattle on. One of my commands would be to not utter another word.

How could I possibly shoot somebody for talking?

Well, there are two factors. One, he's broken into my house and I'm in Florida, so I can.

But that's not enough for me.

Here's what would make me do that. Some criminals are EXPERTS at getting control over victims. By pointing the gun at them, you have momentarily interrupted their advance. They've now gone back to an "interview" mode, during which they use whatever they can to get information on how safe it is to do what. Letting them yack continues the interview, even if you don't answer. They'll see your body language. You could be encouraging a sudden continuation of the attack.

He's broken into my occupied house. I'm in Florida. It's only by my kind indulgence that he's not dead already. He must shut up and do it really soon in order to stay unshot.

OneInTheChamber · February 8, 2006, 06:32 PM

He can yack all he wants. He can yell, cuss, speak in tongues for all I care. The one thing he can't do is move. Once he's down on the floor, his next unauthorized movement will be his last.

He's going to be face down, hands behind his head with his fingers interlaced, and his legs crossed over each other.

This is not only for my safety, but his also. This prevents him from accidently moving from a position of stress (such as holding his hands above his head).

It also lets me know what kind of state of mind he is in. If he is drugged up, chances are he won't be able to do the following. If he follows it to the letter and seems scared _____less, he's heading in the right direction.

If he doesn't seem scared ____less, he's planning something.

Like others said, all commands would be short, loud, and to the point. You have to let him know who's boss and that he will not win.

My .02

DWARREN123 · February 8, 2006, 07:09 PM

I like the alien part better, invite them in for a beer!

gdm · February 8, 2006, 08:22 PM

yeah..I liked the alien one better too.Id enjoy living like the rich and slovenly after that discovery.oh well...

riverrat66 · February 8, 2006, 09:09 PM

The rules for intruders in my house are simple, there are no rules!

You come into my house uninvited you are a dead man, period!

When the police get here they will find some sort of weapon in the dead intruders hand.

tjhands · February 9, 2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

You come into my house uninvited you are a dead man, period!

When the police get here they will find some sort of weapon in the dead intruders hand.

Let's suppose this scenario actually took place and you killed the guy and then stuck one of your knives in his dead paw. During the investigation, let's say that somehow (through a family member, friend, enemy, whatever) the bad guy's family attorney finds out you frequent a gun website called thefiringline.com He/she gets on here and looks up your past posts. Voila! Here is this friendly quote from the riverrat about fixing a crime scene up. Your rock-solid case of self defense crumbles a bit.

If this is your plan, great, but I wouldn't be singing it out to the world on a public forum.

raveneap · February 9, 2006, 11:51 AM

dwarren123: >>... I like the alien part better, invite them in for a beer! ... <<

Agree!

riverrat66 · February 9, 2006, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Here is this friendly quote about fixing a crime scene up. Your rock-solid case of self defense crumbles a bit.

You've been watching too much "Law & Order" on TV. That argument wouldn't hold water in a real court. Anyone could be sitting at this keyboard typing these words.

Sorry but I don't buy it.

invention_45 · February 9, 2006, 01:06 PM

riverrat: I'm no lawyer, but I think you are right about that. But anything you say here might have to be defended as someone else's words, adding cost to your attorney fees.

They charge by the hour, and the more you complicate your case, the more you are going to spend trying to clear yourself.

Tankist · February 9, 2006, 03:00 PM

This is all fine and dandy. But what about those of us who live in an area where law enforcement officials dont have such great respect for citizens right to own and use firearms in self defense.

This concern is near and dear to my heart since I happen to live in NYC. The justifications for the use of deadly force are much more complicated in a self defense scenario here. Instead of calling 911 one would have to call their lawyer.

February 7, 2006, 04:55 PM	#3
Twycross Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 1,187	Well, they're not presenting any direct threat to you, so I would find it hard to justify shooting them. "Well, officer, I had to shoot him in self defense because he was arguing with me and wouldn't get on his knees." Something about that just doesn't sound right. As for the cop-killing you mention, are you really saying that troopers should be able to shoot people who dance around screaming "kill me?" IMHO, that would have been an excellent point to utilize a taser, or OC, or some similar less lethal method. In the scenario in your home, you are kinda stuck in the same position as the guy who gets jumped and mugged at gunpoint, and then has to stand there watching the BGs leave. You can't take retaliatory action, and in the situation you outline, really all you can do is stall him unless he is some sort of direct threat to you. __________________ The test of character is not 'hanging in' when you expect light at the end of the tunnel, but performance of duty, and persistence of example when you know no light is coming. - Vice Admiral James Stockdale, USN (ret.)

February 7, 2006, 06:10 PM	#8
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	At the point they are running their mouth, . . . hands up, . . . they really are not a threat if I have my loaded 1911 or my semi auto shotgun with 7 rounds pointing at two bg's. When one starts to move, . . . or gives any inclination to me that he feels he is smart enough to move on a drawn gun, . . . local undertakers are going to have business, . . . same goes for #2 when I get done with #1. May God bless, Dwight PS: Same goes for Martians, . . . they just need to crank up that overstuffed saucer and hit the road. __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

February 7, 2006, 06:12 PM	#9
bruchi Junior member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 26	shut up! Once you got the guy on his knees, don't say a word, period, unless he asks a reasonable question in a reasonable way, if he taunts you, tries to con you, lay a guilt trip, "I got kids to feed", whatever, do not answer. I would think that anyone with any common sense will eventually shut up after realizing that's useless trying to get anything verbal going on with someone that is pointing a gun at them and that has every right to blow them away. If they don't have the sense to see talking is useless, let them blabber as much as they want and make it so like they are talking to a wall, as long as they don't make any threatening moves just ignore them. Words can't hurt you. If they do move in a theatening way, put them down, permanently, you don't know if they have a blade, a hidden gun or any weapon for that matter and a motivated person can do a lot of damage even if they are hurt. Last edited by bruchi; February 7, 2006 at 09:52 PM.

February 8, 2006, 07:19 AM	#12
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	The far out scenerio king __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

February 8, 2006, 06:32 PM	#17
OneInTheChamber Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Posts: 789	He can yack all he wants. He can yell, cuss, speak in tongues for all I care. The one thing he can't do is move. Once he's down on the floor, his next unauthorized movement will be his last. He's going to be face down, hands behind his head with his fingers interlaced, and his legs crossed over each other. This is not only for my safety, but his also. This prevents him from accidently moving from a position of stress (such as holding his hands above his head). It also lets me know what kind of state of mind he is in. If he is drugged up, chances are he won't be able to do the following. If he follows it to the letter and seems scared _____less, he's heading in the right direction. If he doesn't seem scared ____less, he's planning something. Like others said, all commands would be short, loud, and to the point. You have to let him know who's boss and that he will not win. My .02 __________________ Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.

February 7, 2006, 04:55 PM	#2
Bender711 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 340	ok first off im not saying any thing to him im just putting a round through his skull, and if he does attempt to taunt me then im putting a few rounds through his chest. ill let god decide what to do with him from there. __________________ From a Mod "Seeing as how "butt Smurf" is not profanity in the usual sense and humorously creative, I'll leave this up for now"

February 7, 2006, 05:04 PM	#4
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	in all honesty, I find that absurd and downright dangerous, meaning no disrespect you personally. But seriously these people have violated you and your home. You have caught them and are holding them at gunpoint. until they are under your contol THEY ARE A DANGER. All this talk of "well you could just use some less than lethal means" is like saying "you could just shoot the gun out of their hand" or "shoot them in the leg." Even if you did (and most people don't, that's why they have a gun) have a Tazer or the like that is no guarantee that it will stop them especially if they are pumped up on drugs or such. The bullet is better insurance that their threat will end. Anything else is just a halfway measure that can get you killed. Yes I think that officer should have been able and should have shot that guy. It was not a matter of the guy dancing, it was a matter of this guy being a danger to the officer. It was a distraction and defiance. As a little boy, if a dad says to you "don't do that son" and you keep doing it anyway and the dad keeps saying "don't do it, don't do it, one, two, three okay now I mean it" it's not going to change the kids mind unless he knows he will get a spanking. Demands without consequences are hollow. I see parents today do this all the time and their kids have the run of the household

February 7, 2006, 05:35 PM	#5
texdawg Member Join Date: January 12, 2006 Location: Big D Posts: 56	in the house, he's a goner!!!!!!!

February 7, 2006, 05:49 PM	#7
DBOUNCE1 Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2006 Location: OMAHA Posts: 189	You got me

February 7, 2006, 11:20 PM	#10
rex Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2005 Location: Illinois Posts: 147	I am with bruchi if the BG is complying. If he is refusing to follow my commands, I wouldn't hesitate to drop him.

February 7, 2006, 11:30 PM	#11
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Right on Buchi and Rex

February 8, 2006, 11:40 AM	#13
invention_45 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Broward County Posts: 972	Depending on the situation, lighting, etc., I might be so afraid I'd have shot already. But let's say it has gone like you say until you wrote "NOW". Upon the very first sign of refusal to comply, I'd shoot. Now I wouldn't be asking him to stand on one hand, but something like "put your hands up". I'd try to break commands into how I wanted them done. I.e., rather than say "get your hands where I can see them, then slowly kneel down, not moving your hands, and then lay face-down on the floor with your hands still above your head" which could be easily done wrong by the BG, I'd break it up into short clear commands, allowing compliance to each before issuing the next. Put your hands up RIGHT NOW. I'm going to give you a few simple commands. Follow them exactly. Keep your hands up and get on your knees RIGHT NOW. Keeping your hands away from your body, down on all fours RIGHT NOW. Slide your hands away from your body so that you are face down on the floor RIGHT NOW. Do not move one bit and do not speak one word. That way I can tell intentional departure from what I want done from failure to understand a complex set of instructions. I'm in Florida. He's already broken into my house. You better believe I'm SCARED. If, at any time, during any of this, the BG's movements didn't match my commands within 1/2 second, I start shooting. I'd be a very slight bit more tolerant of words, but unless they were something like "like this?", I would shoot if he kept yapping.

February 8, 2006, 02:56 PM	#15
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	The rules for intruders in the house are simple. First, anyone entering an occupied home at night is NOT NORMAL. He's ABNORMAL, and you simply don't take chances with your families life. You simply don't allow strange, abnormal people to make life and death decisions for you and your family. If you're a generous type person and in a very secure position, you can give him a chance at YOUR option. ONE chance. If he fails to obey INSTANTLY, that's HIS decision. Remember, he's NOT NORMAL. Second, forget paying any attention to anything he says, and forget the BS about "Watch his eyes". As any cop can tell you, "Watch his HANDS". His eyes can't kill you. His hands can. People who enter occupied homes are so abnormal they are fully capable of anything. Taking a chance that he won't suddenly engage you before you can shoot, is an absolutely insane risk, leaving your family totally at the mercy of an ABNORMAL person. You can be assured HE won't be giving you or your family any breaks. Bottom line, someone so dangerous as to enter an occupied home has "punched his own ticket" and whatever happens is HIS responsibility. The hard fact is, for any home owner to take any chances whatsoever with an intruder is tantamount to suicide.

February 8, 2006, 03:51 PM	#16
invention_45 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Broward County Posts: 972	bruchi: I don't think I would let him prattle on. One of my commands would be to not utter another word. How could I possibly shoot somebody for talking? Well, there are two factors. One, he's broken into my house and I'm in Florida, so I can. But that's not enough for me. Here's what would make me do that. Some criminals are EXPERTS at getting control over victims. By pointing the gun at them, you have momentarily interrupted their advance. They've now gone back to an "interview" mode, during which they use whatever they can to get information on how safe it is to do what. Letting them yack continues the interview, even if you don't answer. They'll see your body language. You could be encouraging a sudden continuation of the attack. He's broken into my occupied house. I'm in Florida. It's only by my kind indulgence that he's not dead already. He must shut up and do it really soon in order to stay unshot.

February 8, 2006, 07:09 PM	#18
DWARREN123 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: BETWEEN TN & KY Posts: 1,758	I like the alien part better, invite them in for a beer!

February 8, 2006, 08:22 PM	#19
gdm Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2005 Posts: 319	yeah..I liked the alien one better too.Id enjoy living like the rich and slovenly after that discovery.oh well...

February 8, 2006, 09:09 PM	#20
riverrat66 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2004 Location: Western New York Posts: 394	The rules for intruders in my house are simple, there are no rules! You come into my house uninvited you are a dead man, period! When the police get here they will find some sort of weapon in the dead intruders hand.

February 9, 2006, 11:51 AM	#22
raveneap Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2005 Location: Maine Posts: 229	dwarren123: >>... I like the alien part better, invite them in for a beer! ... << Agree! __________________ ... ed ... -- MAINE -- The Way Life Should Be NRA/C&R/CCW

February 9, 2006, 01:06 PM	#24
invention_45 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Broward County Posts: 972	riverrat: I'm no lawyer, but I think you are right about that. But anything you say here might have to be defended as someone else's words, adding cost to your attorney fees. They charge by the hour, and the more you complicate your case, the more you are going to spend trying to clear yourself.

February 9, 2006, 03:00 PM	#25
Tankist Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2000 Posts: 222	This is all fine and dandy. But what about those of us who live in an area where law enforcement officials dont have such great respect for citizens right to own and use firearms in self defense. This concern is near and dear to my heart since I happen to live in NYC. The justifications for the use of deadly force are much more complicated in a self defense scenario here. Instead of calling 911 one would have to call their lawyer.