The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 25, 2002, 11:29 PM   #26
zot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 1999
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 566
I'm like marshall Dillion, point and shoot gun right out of your hand. no brag just fact!
zot is offline  
Old June 26, 2002, 09:27 AM   #27
fix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2001
Posts: 919
A little common sense is needed when discussing point shooting. If the guy is so close that you will have to angle the weapon more than 45 degrees to miss his vitals, point and pull. If the guy is so far away that he's smaller than the front sight, get a rifle. Anywhere in between, use the sights.
fix is offline  
Old June 26, 2002, 02:48 PM   #28
armedbutnotdangerous
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2001
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 171
My humble opinion on the matter, after several thousand rounds
of rapid fire range time, hundreds of draws, and some IPSC
shooting, is that with some practice, you can use a good sight picture as fast as you can point shoot, with more accuracy.

After all, the best shooters in the world are using their sights in
competition, and are far faster and more accurate than any of us
could hope to be (yes , I realize there's a difference, but what's
good enough for them is good enough for me).

For what it's worth....
Steve.
__________________
Louis L'Amour said it best!!
armedbutnotdangerous is offline  
Old June 26, 2002, 03:09 PM   #29
Oleg Volk
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 7,022
I got a SW617 (.22) to practice point shooting...and a .22 conversion kit for the Glock. That way I could fire a lot of ammo, fast and without beating myself up on recoil.

Here's my impression:

Some guns point well (HK P7, Sig 232, Colt Govt.380), some so-co (Glocks) and some not well at all (CZ52, TT33). For those of us who routinely alternate between different gun types, point shooting ability is reduced.

Point shooting requires constant practice, also requires a particular posture. Sighted shooting is more flexible. It is slower but, except at almost contact distances, more accurate by far. At least in my case, I can't fire follow-up shots fast enough to make the first round worth missing.

Crouch+look over the sights concept works fairly well but it is only applicable to a small number of situations (no cover available, short range). Also, if the target moves on a tangent with you (dog going for your leg), sometimes pointing works better...but sighted shooting seems to be a necessity, at least for me.
__________________
Oleg "peacemonger" Volk
blog.olevolk.net
Oleg Volk is offline  
Old June 27, 2002, 12:57 AM   #30
Seeker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2001
Location: Lacomb, Oregon
Posts: 1,393
IMO, point shooting would be most useful in very up-close and personal situations, where weapon retention may be an issue. While I don't believe anyone could argue against using sighted fire for accurate hits on target, some situations may recommend against extending your arms and raising the pistol to eye level.

Some fam-fire maybe worth the time - in the interest of a well rounded education.
__________________
Molon Labe
Seeker

"The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson
Don't Tread On Me!
"Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none" -- Thomas Jefferson

In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us.
-Thich Nhat Hanh
Seeker is offline  
Old June 29, 2002, 08:59 AM   #31
Eric Larsen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2001
Location: Bountiful....Ut.
Posts: 3,226
Point shooting is a lost art IMO. I have an SP101 with a CTC laser grip that is a blessing for point shooting. I spent the first 3 weeks I had it practicing on everything in my house. I got pretty good at it...and feel I can hit pretty well with the gun. EVEN without the laser..it just helps to "train your brain, hand/eye coordination" I may need to use it sometime..hope to never have to, but its nice to know I will do fairly well if it does happen......
Shoot well
__________________
If they dont know you have a gun.....then I did alright!

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice......Rush
Eric Larsen is offline  
Old July 4, 2002, 02:36 PM   #32
VictorLouis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2000
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,302
LawDog, your buddy's one gutsy SOB!

Were it me, I would've dumped my WunderPistole in the dirt and proceeded to engage him in fisticuffs. IMO, he needlessly took his life in his hands by doing that and handing the kid a LOADED GUN! Or, was this a class in the Israeli Method where such training was what he signed-up for.

You also referred to the infamous Newhall Incident(Massacre) in California. Certainly the low-water mark in CHiPs history of gunfights. It was commonplace in LE training of the day for everyone to police their brass. IIRC, qualification in that era was based on the PPC competition that was en-vogue at the time. I don't recall reading that the issue with shell-cases was witnessed by anyone, though I'm not disputing it, either. I seem to remember reading that shells were found in the pockets of one of the dead officers. My point is, with the whole of America LE training that way, why is THAT the only such recorded instance?

I used to be of the 100% front sight mentality. Afterall, I grew up reading Masaad Ayoob. Does anyone recall his article in American Handgunner last year(?)? He took about 100 shooters, some of whom were familiar with Glocks, and some who weren't. He had them go through a course of fire at 3-5-7-12-15-25yds. with the standard pistol. Then, they repeated the excersise with the same model pistol with its sights REMOVED. In summation, he didn't notice any degradation in accuracy/score until the 12yd. point. It was not markedly different until the 15yd. point! He must've tasted foot in his mouth, as I've not read of him ever mentioning it since then.

No proponent of point-fire/shooting defends it's use much past 10yds. Heck, I'm looking for a front sight at that point. However, after research and trial for myself, I've come to the realization that not only do you not need your sights in-close, they can slow you down. Granted, the difference is probably measured in tenths of a second, but we know just how long of a period of time that really can be. Reaction time from accelerator to brake pedal on the road and the Tueller Drill(AKA-21ft. Principle) are two illustrations which quickly come to mind. That miniscule amount of time can mean the difference between you getting at least a coarse hit on the goblin, and him deflecting or getting hold of your weapon, or YOU.
VictorLouis is offline  
Old July 5, 2002, 09:20 AM   #33
Blackhawk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2001
Posts: 5,040
Ironbarr,
Quote:
I just did a search on "point and shooting" and "point". Too many returns to peruse. So I'm asking for some tried and true facts and actions re point and shoot technique(s).
You're too lazy to read what's already been posted about the subject so you want TFLers to "say it again" in this one convenient place for you, is that right?

I'm still thinking about that, but they probably will....
Blackhawk is offline  
Old July 5, 2002, 10:17 AM   #34
Ironbarr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2000
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 1,188
BH... Yup...

Quote:
I'm still thinking about that, but they probably will....
and they did... do.. er, will (maybe).

Actually, I've seen a few threads revived from the dusty archives that have gone on to great success. I'm happy this one is - I've modified my opinion on point shooting some because of these comments. Also, currency is important since experiences and time can change thinking. One of my failings though is getting the attention of others - I have yet to produce a string of "successful" Subject lines (headlines, if you will) - attention grabbers - thus have many of my "fantastic people-moving" pennings fallen flat, relegating, after a read or two, my wonderful prose to a spot right close to the bit bucket.

Alas, Alack - I am but a poor hack.

To all, thanks for your attention and comments. And BlackHawk - I know your joshing me.

Andy
.
__________________
-AndyB

FWTV - For Whatever The Value
...When seconds count, most help is just minutes away.
Ironbarr is offline  
Old July 5, 2002, 11:05 AM   #35
Blackhawk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2001
Posts: 5,040
Quote:
I have yet to produce a string of "successful" Subject lines (headlines, if you will) - attention grabbers -
But maybe you're trying to sell sand to Polynesians.

This particular forum doesn't get much traffic (906 threads right now), and the ones who frequent it are likely the more, shall we say, skilled and knowledgeable (which is why I almost never check it out ).

Secondly, "Point & Shoot" doesn't mean anything, and what you meant was "Point Shooting."

Third, "What's the good word?" isn't provocative, it's just chatter bait.

A title like "Point Shooting -- Is it something worth practicing?" might lure the knowledgeable curmudgeons out of their caves to offer more gems of wisdom, or to repeat those already offered.

I used to love point shooting, but I've recently become enamored of a very fast combat stance with aimed shots. Probably looks hilarious to distant observers, but it's fun!

Joshing you? Never! Guns and shooting are ALWAYS very serious topics, and we should never kid about any aspect of them!
Blackhawk is offline  
Old July 5, 2002, 12:45 PM   #36
Ironbarr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2000
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 1,188
Quote:
But maybe you're trying to sell sand to Polynesians.
Here in Virginia Beach we are always buying sand for the beach.
Quote:
This particular forum doesn't get much traffic (906 threads right now)
Now you tell me. But this has gotten attention, no?
Quote:
Secondly, "Point & Shoot" doesn't mean anything, and what you meant was "Point Shooting."
I owned up to that with
Quote:
'And I realize that there is much yet to learn - not only "technique", but the language too.',
and, '(I'm not up on the learning curve with the language)'
Quote:
Third, "What's the good word?" isn't provocative, it's just chatter bait.
Yes.
Quote:
A title like "Point Shooting -- Is it something worth practicing?" might lure the knowledgeable curmudgeons out of their caves to offer more gems of wisdom, or to repeat those already offered.
Other than this: "but Point & Shoot did get (your) attention, right?', I won't touch this.
Quote:
I used to love point shooting, but I've recently become enamored of a very fast combat stance with aimed shots. Probably looks hilarious to distant observers, but it's fun!
I wouldn't laugh, but please, watch your vertibrae.
Quote:
Joshing you? Never! Guns and shooting are ALWAYS very serious topics, and we should never kid about any aspect of them!
I heard that!

In fact, I heard it all (and if we keep using this space for jabber, we'll hear about it shortly). Stay

Thanks, folks for accomodating this - I just couldn't let it pass.

I'm done.

-Andy
__________________
-AndyB

FWTV - For Whatever The Value
...When seconds count, most help is just minutes away.
Ironbarr is offline  
Old July 5, 2002, 01:34 PM   #37
glockgazda
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2000
Posts: 105
The idea is to make a shot/shots as fast as possible and get effective hits, right?

Provided that you have learned to index the gun correctly in your hand it boils down to distance and size of the target.

Straight from Ray Chapman's mouth (paraphrased):"...Learn to use as precise sight picture as neccessary.... same goes for trigger pull."

30yd shot will require quite clear sight picture and very controlled trigger break. 4yd shot will need no sights (maybe not even bringing the gun to eye level, but still indexed properly), and the fastest possible trigger pull (without jerking).
glockgazda is offline  
Old July 5, 2002, 02:22 PM   #38
Blackhawk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2001
Posts: 5,040
Quote:
Other than this: "but Point & Shoot did get (your) attention, right?', I won't touch this.
Touche!

I wondered what somebody could possibly mean by that, and it had recently been bumped to the top.
Blackhawk is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07993 seconds with 10 queries