How can I get my 308 reloads to be as good as out of the box168gr Fed GMM

[T. O'Heir]

"...had cases where the tips of the bullets get a bit banged up..." The points don't matter. Only the base matters.
Taking factory ammo apart and reassembling it is a gigantic waste of time. It does absolutely nothing and you cannot get the powders used by any manufacturer.
If you want ammo that shoot as well or (and far more likely) better than any Federal ammo, you must work up the load for your rifle.
I'd suggest using IMR4064 with your Sierra 168 grain Matchking(same bullet used in Federal Gold Match ammo) and quit taking factory ammo apart.

[Unclenick]

While there are some powders available to manufacturers that handloaders can't buy, more often it is just that the manufacturers buy a bulk grade version of the same powders to get lower cost, then use pressure barrels to adjust the load to compensate for its wider burn rate tolerance.

The GMM .308 with 168 gr. SMK that I tore apart twenty years ago was loaded with 43.5 grains of what looked exactly like IMR 4064. Federal claimed 2650 fps from a 24" test barrel, and when I run QuickLOAD's model with that load I get 2648 fps. So, the behavior was as close to handloader's 4064 as you could get. I subsequently had it verified by a source that it was, indeed, 4064. Whether they bought their 4064 in bulk grade, as most manufacturers do and just happened to get a lot close to average burn rate, or if they paid extra for canister grade to get the tighter burn rate tolerance is something I did not find out for sure. But that is what I would buy if I were advertising an ammunition as Match grade and charging a premium for it and had my reputation resting on its consistency.

I heard subsequently that Federal had switched to Reloader 15 for that ammunition, but when the military, which uses Reloader 15 in LC M118LR, discovered its pressures getting too high in desert conditions and Federal got a contract to create Mk. 316 Mod. 0 as a replacement, they went back to 4064. I don't know if they'd done the same for GMM or not. I haven't pulled any new GMM.

In any event, the Federal load barrel times should be copyable with canister grade 4064 if you use Federal 210M primers and adjust your load to match the velocity of the GMM ammunition that uses the same bullet produces in your same rifle.

[Bart B.]

To equal Fed's GMM load for accuracy, why not start with cases with outside dimensions and weight about the same as theirs? Either new cases or proper full length sized ones.

Then use their primer and about 43 grains of IMR4064 under the 168. I and others have done this with excellent results.

[hank jacobs]

Hi, everyone,

I thought to report back with where I am and what I think I have learned and a question of what I could do next...

1. Taking Factory GMMA apart and putting it back together reduces the accuracy, even if concentricity, load, and bullet seating depth is as good as before. Tried LEE, Redding, and in the end a Forrester precision seating die.
Even pulling the Bullet only partially and reseat to 71 mm increases the group size from 0.5 MOA to 0.8 MOA. Conclusion. The cause must be due to alterrations in the necktension! If someone repeats this and finds out that their accuracy is maintained I would hope to receive an email at jkheiko at gmail ....
I for now will have to give up on trying to learn to produce a load like the FED GMMA that produces 0.5MOA in both of my 308 rifles a Remington 700 and an old Mauser 98... Too bad..


2. So I gave up the taking appart business as suggested by a number of you and did some reloads with new unfired Lapua Brass and try an optimize this for one gun hoping it would also work in the other... I guess this is more in line with the standard approach. Anyway here the steps, Question follows later:
- New Lapua unfired Brass
- Sorted the Brass by weight.
- No-Necksizing was done
- Measured concentricity of empty cases which excceeded the spects of FGMM (mentioned at outset of this thread)
- Loaded 20 rounds (5 rounds each with 42gr, 42.5 gr, 43 gr, 43.5grains of N140 Vihtavuori, respectively)
- Seated weight sorted Sierra 168gr at 71 mm using a Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater die.
- Measured concentricity of bullet runnout which exceeded the spects of FGMM (mentioned at outset of this thread)
- Went to the range
- Result: Get 1 to 0.8 MOA (see images) using the reloads which is still not as good as the better than 0.5 MOA (see images) using the GMMA.

If you look at the groups I noticed the following
42 gr produces an even spread in all directions
42.5 gr produces a vertical string
43 gr produces an even spread again
43.5 gr produces a horizontal spread. (0.8 MOA a a bit better)
its out of a remington 700 sts tactical which has a heavy barrel.

Factory GMMA groups are better...

Questions. Any suggestions how I can get the groups to narrow further. Can someone explain the pattern of the groups.. Is this just coincidence or a pointer to what to do next..

thanks

hank

[Bart B.]

I don't think there's enough shots with any load for them to be statistically significant. If you shot each charge weight in 20 shot groups, a difference may show up. A 2/10" spread across all tells me they're all equally accurate.

Those groups are a normal distribution of four 5-shot groups randomly distributed in a single 20-shot group.

[Metal god]

Here is a pic of powder I pulled from a 308 168gr FGMM round last year . It's been in a small air tight container but has been taken out and weighed and looked at quite a few times



This pick is IMR 4064 bought around the same time



This pic is of them both side by side



Not sure if the GMM is different powder but it's shine is duller . That could be do to how much it's been handled . I have no idea what RL-15 looks like

[Bart B.]

Back in the days when military teams shot handloaded Federal .308 primed cases winning matches and setting records with M14NM rifles, few knew how that ammo was loaded.

Privates were sequestered to uniform new case mouths, meter IMR4064 into cases then seat Sierra 168's to feed reliably from magazines. Their accuracy equalled Federal 308 GMM. Little skill required.

T. O'Heir says:

If you want ammo that shoot as well or (and far more likely) better than any Federal ammo, you must work up the load for your rifle.

I've never worked up any .308 Win load with Sierra 168, 180, 190 and 200 grain or Lapua 170 and 185 grain bullets and they all shot better than what Federal match ammo produced. Used the same recipie as match winners and record setters used. They all tested as accurate as theirs. Same for two 30 caliber magnums. Worked well across several barrels from three makers. Won my share of matches with them, too.

Military teams pulled bullets from 7.62 NATO M118 match ammo replacing them with Sierra 180 or 190 or Lapua 185 grain bullets and sometimes a different powder (same charge weight for each powder - bullet combination) that shot near 1/2 MOA at 600 yards in their semiauto match rifles. Best long range loads in M1 and M14 rifles outperforming Federal match ammo. Same lot of ammo shot equally well across all team rifles.

Some years ago, a few people worked up loads for a prototype 30 caliber 155 gr match bullet for .308 Win ammo. A 45.3 gr charge of 4895 seemed good across half a dozen rifles. A couple hundred thousand rounds with new cases and metered charges were loaded on two Dillon 1050 progressives for a big match. That ammo shot about 1/2 MOA at 600 yds in 30 some match rifles with a range of chamber, bore and groove dimensions. 20 rounds picked at random shot into 2.7" at 600 in a test.

Working up loads is more often than not, a waste of ammo and barrel life. That's the smallest fraction over half the instances. In my opinion.

[RKG]

My 7.62 match load is 42.1 gr. RL-15, 168 gr. SMK, CCI #200. Cases are same HS and all trimmed alike. COAL is 15 thou jump. No crimp.

This load outshoots factory GMM all day long. (Rifle is Savage M12 VLP.)

[waveslayer]

Originally Posted by hank jacobs

How can I get my 308 reloads to be as good as out of the box168gr Fed GMM which shoots sub .5 moa out of Rem 700 SPS Tactical

Hi everyone, I am a newbie here and hope to get to get some advice.
I started reloading 4 months ago and am still not able (after 400 rounds) to match Fed GMM.

To cut the story short I am currently trying to reduce the variables and decided to pull the bullets from the FED gold medal match 168 gr factory loads to reseat them into the original brass leaving primer, powder charge, seating depth, unchanged.

I used the following procedure:
A) Unload fed 168 GMM using Unload Hammer
B) Necksize unloaded brass either using a
Lee collet die
and more recently I have also be trying an
RCBS neck sizer with expander ball
C) Refill with Orig. Powder and Re-seat the bullets to original depth using lee seater (nothing special)
D) Measured bullet runoff to make sure it on par or better than what it was.

I have been very carful at this and repeated this now several time. However back at the range I can only get 0.8-1MOA with these which means something is already off either with the seating step or with the neck tension..? or with something else? Before unloading (to reduce the variables) I was reloading adding many more steps. Results were 0.7-1 MOA as well but I had no clue where the problem could be. Now the error needs to be in steps A-D above. But where?

What should I do…?

In a few weeks I should be getting a few more dies to try. Specifically a 1. Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die and a 2. Redding Competition Bushing Neck Sizer Die together with a 336 Diameter Titanium Nitride Bushing to see if this helps.

Anyway I am getting frustrated that I cannot get close to what the factory ammo delivers. And that I have to keep buying stuff without getting anywhere near the factory loads..

Can someone shine some light into what is going on?

Go to the Hide, Snipers hide that is and Dan Newberry has copied the FGMM. Basically 2.805 COL. 4064 at 42.7 grains and some federal brass and some primers you should be good to go

[Bart B.]

A Federal rep told me their GMM ammo had very uniform lots of their 210M primers. I think Tulammo ones are as good or better.

He also said they use about 43 grains of IMR4064; whatever weight met their velocity and pressure specs. Charge weights could easily vary near a whole grain.

[green_MTman]

If the out of box factory ammo is so good,why reload it then

[Bart B.]

Less out of pocket cost.

And if one refines some of the reloading details, reloaded Federal cases can be more accurate than they were in original factory configuration.

[hank jacobs]

Hi everyone....

I went to the range again and I am getting a little closer... but also there are open questions...

Here what I tried:

5 rounds of new unfired lapua loaded with 42.5 gr N140 -- Neck Runoff 0.001' (result 2 inch circle) OD = Lapua new -- tight necktension
5 rounds of new unfired lapua loaded with 43 gr N140 -- Neck Runoff 0.001' (result 1.6 inch circle) OD = Lapua new -- tight necktension
5 rounds of new unfired lapua loaded with 43.5 gr N140 -- Neck Runoff 0.001' (result 1.5 inch circle) OD = Lapua new -- tight necktension

5 rounds of factory 168 FGMM Neck Runoff 0.002' (result 0.7 inch circle)

7 reload lapua 43.5 gr N140 -- Neck Sized w Redding Comp. Die -- Runoff 0.0025' (result within 1.5 inch circle) EmptyNeck OD = Lapua new + 0.008' -- less tight necktension
7 reload lapua 43.5 gr N140 -- Full Body Sized w Lee B Die -- Runoff 0.0016' (result within 1 inch circle) EmptyNeck OD = Lapua new + 0.003' -- less tight necktension
7 reload lapua 43.5 gr N140 -- Neck Sized w Lee Collet Die -- Runoff 0.0011' (result within 1 inch circle) EmptyNeck OD = Lapua new + 0.008' -- less tight necktension

A photo of the groups is attached.
Question 1: Neck tension. I think the necktension must be different between the different cases. I measured the OD of empty cases and compared it with the new Lapua cases. I got the following values:
1. New Lapua = call it reference OD = call it tight
2. Once Fired and Neck Sized w Redding Neck Comp w Bushing = reference OD + 0.008' less tight
3. Once Fired and Full Body sized w Lee B Die = reference OD + 0.003' tight
4. Once Fired and Neck Sized w Lee Collet Die = reference OD + 0.008' less tight

Here the Question:

1. Is this normal that a Lee full body die brings it very close to what the new original Lapua shell had?

2. Would any full body die always bring the neckOD to the same value or are there some where you can choose how much neck tension you would like to have?

3. So The Lee Collet Die and the Redding Comp die with the Bushing I presently use is very close to each other in terms of OD. However, the neck runoff is not as good with the redding which was hard to believe and this seems to impact the accuracy. I get tighter groups with the LEE dies.. well still not there where I would like to be. So is there a trick to get the Redding die to work. Or should I try and sell it. It is certainly not working for me and I do not thick it is working the neck very much...

4. Or are there parts which change the Redding Comp Neck Die into a Full Body Comp Die?

Comparing the fired OD with calibrated necks I get
0.007 reduction for the Redding Comp. Neck Die (is this a small or a large number. Does the die need a certain amount for it to work?)
0.012 reduction for the Lee Full Body Die
0.007 reduction for the LEE collet Die (would these number make sense...?, I guess it depends )

Any more suggestions on how I get the accuracy to match FGMM..

Thanks

Hank

[Bart B.]

Those groups are too close to the same size for me to pass good judgement on accuracy. Shooting several 5-shot groups in a row with a given load, it's normal to have a 2X to 3X spread from the smallest to the largest. Stastically, they're all the same to me. But they're larger than the FGM ammo, so someting's not set right.

1. Is this normal that a Lee full body die brings it very close to what the new original Lapua shell had?

Maybe. It depends on the die's inside dimensions. Full length sizing dies do bring case dimensions back to almost new case dimensions.

2. Would any full body die always bring the neckOD to the same value or are there some where you can choose how much neck tension you would like to have?

Yes. But full length bushing dies can be used with different bushing diameters for different neck tension. For a given standard die neck diameter, expander ball, case neck wall thickness and bullet diameter, they'll all end up the same.

3. So The Lee Collet Die and the Redding Comp die with the Bushing I presently use is very close to each other in terms of OD. However, the neck runoff is not as good with the redding which was hard to believe and this seems to impact the accuracy. I get tighter groups with the LEE dies.. well still not there where I would like to be. So is there a trick to get the Redding die to work. Or should I try and sell it. It is certainly not working for me and I do not thick it is working the neck very much...

Is the bushing free to float side to side in that Redding die? If it's not, that may end up making crooked necks.

4. Or are there parts which change the Redding Comp Neck Die into a Full Body Comp Die?

I don't think so. You will need to get a full length bushing die but the same bushing can be used.

Full length sizing dies typically make straigher case necks than neck only ones when set up and used correctly. If yours doesn't, something not set up right. If you remove the full length bushing die from the press and shake it, can you hear the bushing rattling as it slides from side to side?

[Jimro]

Hank, have you tried swapping out primers yet?

Jimro

[hank jacobs]

Finally I found the problem that has cost me a fortune...


Interestingly this happened as a surprise. I was loading Vit n140 before and had no success as mentioned here. Then I tried Vit N150 from a friend who told me that the n140 will not get the 168 sierras close enough to the 2650 ft/s the FGMM gets. N150 does..

So I tried the following load Vit N150 44.5 gr (2630 ft/s) with 168 Gr Sierras set to 2.8 coal
in
5 cases new unfired lapua cases and
5 cases once fired(not cleaned) lapua + neck sized with a lee collet die
5 cases once fired(not cleaned) lapua + neck sized with redding type s bushing neck sizer

and everything improved from 1MOA to sub 0.5 MOA

Oh my god what a struggle to get here. Worries about concentricity, bullet seating depths, neck tension (tested different bushings..), pep work of cases etc. I still find it strange since others had good luck with N140, but for now I am happy that I am at least able to reload something that shoots as good as hoped for at the outset of the thread..

All the best and thanks..

Hank

[Bart B.]

According to VV's web site's reloading data, 44.5 grains of N150 should push Sierra 168's out at about 2636 fps:

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloadi...inchester.html

And their N140 load of 42.8 grains puts 'em out at 2558 fps.

Every barrel I've shot FGM match through has shot them at least 2560 fps, 2650 or thereabouts sometimes when I chrono'd them. Federal's specs for it are 2650 fps:

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/rifle.aspx

[zach_]

Hank, you have helped me come to the conclusion that reloading might be a rewarding experience. It looks like it is more than just saving a few bucks for you. I will start the process of making final decisions on the equipment needed to start reloading. I am also going to find a place to take a class. Good luck. Off to the range in the morning for this lazy, no reloading, ammo chasing shooter.