Paying for a few letters in a particular order.

[brmfan]

Who's going to come out and say they bought a BMW or HK because of the name?? Of course they're reasons will be backed up by some sort of product-based reasoning other than pure prestige, hopefully.

These are the main reasons I dumped my Glocks (have owned a bunch over the years) and finally went all in with HK .45 USPs (standard and tactical models)
- Reduced recoil system turns recoil into a smooth pulse instead of an abrupt snap
- Match grade trigger and barrel
- Outstanding ergonomics
- Incredibly durable surface coating
- Hammer fired instead of striker (more versatility IMO)
- 100% reliability with all ammo (although lead bullets are not recommended in the polygonal barrel)
- Ambi magazine release button on trigger guard
- Superb fit and finish
- Aesthetically a work of art
- The tapered shape of the slide naturally draws your eyes right to the sights

Does it have it's own flaws? Sure, but would I bet the farm on any other pistol? Not a chance! Like others have said... I also think most of the more vocal HK critics have probably never fired one.

[Pond, James Pond]

So you bought an HK for a specific set of features. Good. It doesn't however mean that some people may not add to their budget to buy something with an HK roll-mark.

I also think most of the more vocal HK critics have probably never fired one.

Have there been any in this thread? I've not noticed any myself. In fact there has been no brand-bashing, just some views stating that some brand-names may carry a premium that others do not.

Someone thinking a brand is not worth what they charge is not bashing.
It's economics.

[brmfan]

I did not say there were bashers in this particular thread- just been around long enough to have seen it happen on forums and in person.

[Dashunde]

So you bought an HK for a specific set of features. Good. It doesn't however mean that some people may not add to their budget to buy something with an HK roll-mark.

Maybe they do spend more for the name without really understanding why.
Whether they know it or not, or even care, they're certainly getting much more than meets the eye with an HK.
Read on...

Someone thinking a brand is not worth what they charge is not bashing.
It's economics.

Lets talk about those economics, and I'll drag CZ in while I'm at it.
Many would say CZ is worth the money, right?

Consider:
CZ labor rates compared to HK's in Germany and the US. (has no bearing on the end product, but it is factored into the price)
CZ's internal machining appears to be chewed by tungsten toothed beavers, HK's are clean, precise and appear to have undergone several additional tumbling/smoothing processes (mine anyway).
Compare CZ's paint-like coating to HK's.

Thats really just a start... the additional effort and expense contained in the HK may not matter to many, myself included at $1000 for a poly 45.
I know what was in my HK and what was in my CZ... Personally, I'd rather be somewhere in between them with one of the many other brands.

Is the HK worth it? Yea, if the extra money is available and those features & attention to detail are a priority for the buyer...
So did someone buy an HK for its name? Or for the name because they know what was put into its production?
Who knows...

[Pond, James Pond]

The OP was about which brands people might be paying extra for or buying altogether because of the brand name they carry. I had some thoughts on the matter. So did others.

There was a branch of the discussion looking at the same product sold for more or less, but under a different name.

The thread was not "which brands are perfectly justified in having a higher price tag attached because of A, B and C?".
Nor is it about HK, although HK has been discussed.

As you point out, there is no way of knowing exactly why people bought a gun for the most part, but by that same logic, posting a stack of production comparisons won't help either. You still don't know if the end user bought it for the name.

I find it interesting that the most vocal opponents of discussing what is a fairly innocuous topic are either current or past HK owners.

Once more: this thread is not a personal attack on your own gun choices!!

[44 AMP]

back in the very early 70s, my whining little brother finally convinced my family to get a snowmobile. And they discovered that one could actually have fun in the winter without having to skate or ski.

At the time, the "Cadillac" of snow machines was considered to be the Arctic Cat. They cost more than others, so they must be better, right?

The same engines and performance was available in several other brands, but Arctic Cat owners acted like they were a cut above.

My mother (who had her own way with words) said they acted as if their s... didn't stink.

Certain Harley Davidson owners sneer at "rice burners" (Japanese bikes)

Some HK fans remind me of Arctic Cat owners....of course, some GLock fans remind me of idiots, so that means nothing, really....

[Pond, James Pond]

....of course, some GLock fans remind me of idiots, so that means nothing, really....

Forum induced soup dribble. Thanks!!
:

[44 AMP]

NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR STICKY KEYBOARDS!

(standard boilerplate disclaimer)

yw, James!

[Dashunde]

As you point out, there is no way of knowing exactly why people bought a gun for the most part, but by that same logic, posting a stack of production comparisons won't help either. You still don't know if the end user bought it for the name.

I find it interesting that the most vocal opponents of discussing what is a fairly innocuous topic are either current or past HK owners.

What I'm trying to point out is that sometimes the name says a lot about what is put into the product - the obvious features & style, and the not so obvious manufacturing processes.
Whether or not the buyer actually distills that info during their decision is anyones guess.
Few would admit to blindly buying one on name alone.

HK is a great example to use here because of their high price, name recognition, and their obvious & not so obvious attributes.

[Pond, James Pond]

What I'm trying to point out is that sometimes the name says a lot about what is put into the product - the obvious features & style, and the not so obvious manufacturing processes.
Whether or not the buyer actually distills that info during their decision is anyones guess.
Few would admit to blindly buying one on name alone.

HK is a great example to use here because of their high price, name recognition, and their obvious & not so obvious attributes.

Sometimes people just assume that a brand equates to certain intrinsic qualities. Sometimes they do, sometimes less so: that is where marketing comes in.

Unless you know how much more HK production costs than others and that it fully accounts for HK's higher retail price, then those conclusions are conjecture.

So you're using an assumption to disprove assumptions by other posters that some HK buyers are heavily drawn by the brand name.
Doesn't seem like sound logic to me.

I understand that you don't agree with the premise of the thread, but this is about people's impressions regarding certain brands impact on choice of purchase, not absolutes.
I never expected posters to have a window on the thought process of <INSERT BRAND> buyers, when they put cash on the counter, and they haven't claimed to.

[buckhorn_cortez]

Unless you know how much more HK production costs than others and that it fully accounts for HK's higher retail price, then those conclusions are conjecture.

HK uses a special steel for their barrels that is manufactured to their specifications and is not available on the open market as a standard product.

HK does more R&D and testing prior to releasing a gun than any other manufacturer I'm aware of. As an example, the VP9 was in development for more than four years prior to its introduction.

The coating on HK steel parts is a proprietary coating developed by HK for their guns.

All of that costs money.

The "HK's are too expensive" complaint is really no longer valid with the release of the VP9.

You can find them for about $550. By the time you upgrade Glock sights and the trigger, and then so some work on the grip - you're at or over the cost of a VP9.

One can hope that HK has seen the benefits of having a product at a lower price point and continues to release more guns in a lower price range.

[imp]

Does a stainless steel Rolex tell time any better than a Timex? How much better does a Emerson or Randall cut paper compared to a Gerber pocketknife? How many harbor freight screwdrivers can you buy for the price of one SnapOn?

All brands have a reputation attached, and you pay for it at the counter. Why should guns be any different?

[Dashunde]

Your not just paying for the reputation, your paying for the reason these brands got their reputation in the first place...

The Emerson is made in the US using higher grade steel from Crucible or similar, the handle slabs are usually G-10.
They heat treat to ~58-59rc and it'll hold a edge for a good long while.

Gerbers are made in Taiwan using obscure inexpensive steels and injection molded plastic.

The real question is how many Harbor Freight will you have to buy compared to the one off of the Snap-on truck that will come around and replace the metal blade for free many times and many years later?

[Pond, James Pond]

All of that costs money.

And yet...

Unless you know how much more HK production costs than others and that it fully accounts for HK's higher retail price, then those conclusions are conjecture.

Not "does it cost more?", not "Should it cost more?, but "How much more does it cost?"
And lacking that information, as I pointed out, that does not shed light on the issue in the OP: Do people buy it because of the name on the slide?

All brands have a reputation attached, and you pay for it at the counter. Why should guns be any different?

But is the reputation deserved? Not always.

Besides...one...more...time...this is not what the thread was about.

It was whether or not people would buy it because of the name on the slide.
It's not a difficult concept.

I don't know how many times I have written and emphasised that in this thread, yet fervently hope I don't need to again.

Questions of whether or not HKs are well made are for another thread.

Start one.
For the love of god, start one.

[Dashunde]

this is not what the thread was about.
It was whether or not people would buy it because of the name on the slide.
It's not a difficult concept.

I don't know how many times I have written and emphasised that in this thread...

Its not a difficult concept, but it is impossible to discuss in your doggedly simplistic approach, which is why people are constantly citing examples or comparing products here.
Which should tell you something... most people compare products before buying and the ones who don't and blindly buy based on a name aren't apt to speak up and discuss it here.

So, my answer would be no. Nobody is buying HK or brandX solely because of the name on the slide.

PS.. nobody has mentioned HK in nearly a week, HK was never the real focal point here.
HK was used as an example, complete with explanations as to why they're priced high and likely deserving of loyalty and a good reputation. Perhaps explaining why someone might buy their products sight unseen based on the name alone, but theres the rub... their not really buying it just for the name if they know anything about the product at all.

[imp]

It doesn't matter if the reputation is deserved or not, it still follows the brand until....well until it doesn't.

Some people buy a Mossberg shotgun because it's affordable.

Some buy a Benelli because they appreciate the subtle improvement over the Mossberg.

Some people buy a Purdy or Perrazi because it's a status symbol.

They all shoot shotgun shells...

[Pond, James Pond]

Its not a difficult concept, but it is impossible to discuss in your doggedly simplistic approach, which is why people are constantly citing examples or comparing products here.

The first dozen odd responses didn't have a problem with discussing it. Nothing wrong with a "doggedly" simple question provided others don't complicate it.

PS.. nobody has mentioned HK in nearly a week, HK was never the real focal point here.

The only references to HK in the latter half of this thread have been yours and a couple of others and you steadfastly keep trying to draw the topic in a direction you yourself claimed was incalculable!! And not what I was asking.

Why, then, do you keep posting on the topic and taking the subject off-topic in the process?!

So, my answer would be no.

Finally.
Although your answer should rather be "none", as the OP was about which brands people might pay extra for given the name it carries.

Nonetheless, that answer would have wholly sufficed as it addressed what I wanted to get people's opinions on!

[Dashunde]

Nothing wrong with a "doggedly" simple question provided others don't complicate it

Complicate it? It started with Audi's and whatnot, culminating in a invitation for brand bashing in disguise...

Originally Posted by OP

I'd like to know which are the brands for which, to all intents and purposes, the buyer is paying a premium for the letters stamped on the side of the slide?

Did you think that naming brands wouldn't draw rebuttals or further discussing?

Originally Posted by OP

PS, let's keep this civil, eh? They're just brands, not family honours!

Of course you knew... stop playing the off-topic card.

[Pond, James Pond]

culminating in a invitation for brand bashing in disguise...

So there it is. That is the your gripe with this thread.

Well, excuse me, but don't judge me by your standards. You decided to see brand bashing where there was none and I made my request abot being civil , which you quoted so cynically, in good faith.
Case in point: There hadn't been any HK bashing up until your post number 32. And yet:

Folks who have never owned a HK but are here grinding on them based on others opinions?

Still, if you decide to believe I was trolling, so be it. My conscience is clear.

Did you think that naming brands wouldn't draw rebuttals

At least you now admit that is what they were, then.

Let's make something perfectly clear. I never asked why a brand might be expensive.

You (including a few others) took your posts that way, I gently asked you to return to the question at hand.
You took the topic that way again, I asked again, etc. Progressively I had to get more direct in my requests. To no avail.

It is not unreasonable to want people to stick to the question:
Your HK observations may well be true and interesting to read about but it took you till post number 65 to answer the OP.
Why could you not have done that in post 22 and then justified your point of view as a result?
That would have been fine as at least you'd have addressed the OP, not ignored it along with requests no to.

No one has really made any comment regarding the actual OP since about the beginning of the second page/end of the first.

Since then its been largely about why HK is worth the extra an so on. This thread is essentially killed off as far as the OP was concerned. On top of that you essentially claim I set out to bash brands. If you knew how indifferent I am to brand names.

So, yes, the off-topic card I think applies rather well.

This has made me feel quite frustrated because now the thread may as well be closed. I am not saying you are solely responsible but all the same, how would you feel?

If you feel I have been unfair to a particularly brand or to you, then that is something I'd never intended and therefore regret but I now note that I have spent quite some time on this response alone, trying to balance how I feel with how I can express it and I don't see it going anywhere.

All that time I could have been playing with my daughter. Not a good trade.
So I think I have made my position clear and I think I have had enough.
The floor is yours. Enjoy.

[Dashunde]

I learned something here long ago... the more we type, the less others will read.
Short, simple, clear OP's that get to the point are most fruitful.

All that time I could have been playing with my daughter. Not a good trade.

Coincidentally my 3 year old was in my office seeking attention while I was wandering down your rabbit hole.
No, not a good trade at all.

[44 AMP]

I think we're done here. The floor will be closed. If you folks care to dance some more, let's do it in another thread.

Closed.