Why Certain Slug Preferences?

[DG45]

On another thread, a questioner was wondering what type of slug would be best for boar. Several people mentioned Brenneke as their slug of choice for that. I wonder why? Are some slugs better for certain types of game? What are your slug preferences and why?

[Doyle]

Not better for different game. Better for different barrels. Just like rifle ammo but even more so, slug barrels frequently show a preference for one brand of slug over another. One brand of slugs may shoot really well in a particular barrel and another brand may make the target look like you hit it with a load of buckshot.

Terminal performance in almost any game is going to be the same regardless of the brand you use - dead. An ounce of lead is going to destroy vital organs whether it is rounded, pointed, or whatever.

[hogdogs]

There are large differences in slugs. Some are in the shape but many higher end slugs are of a much harder metal make up. The cheap ol' stand by slugs are "dead soft" lead and this will severely limit penetration.

Sort of like the solid brass bullets for large thick game animals rather than a soft nose jacketed bullet.

Brent

[Old Grump]

Fosters are lighter and nose heavy, they are a bit more accurate in my guns but penetration is less. Brenneke's are heavier, accurate enough out of a barrel with the proper choke and they deliver more energy to the target. You don't want a 300 pound mama boar irritated you want her laying down there where you hit her and dying politely.

Original slugs were just large round balls and while very effective the range and accuracy was limited. The new slugs like xp3 Winchester, the Hornady SST, and Federal Fusion slugs are built more like jacketed bullets and cost more. They do more damage, leave the barrel faster and fly farther straighter. But dead is dead and at 100 yards the old standard Brenneke is the 30-30 of slugs. Still doing the job 110 years after the first one hit the market.

Sabot slugs if you want or need rifle like performance out of your shotgun but you need a rifled bore to shoot them where a smooth bore works for the others. The cost goes up considerably for that upgrade.

[jmortimer]

Take at look at the Dixie slugs - hard cast IXL-DGS (Dangerous Game Slug)
Scroll down http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html
Dixie slugs and the Brenneke 3" Black Magic http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/blackmagic.html
These are the best because they will penetrate and will not deform on large and especially dangerous game. They will smoke anything on the earth.

[skydiver3346]

Good question.
I have shot most every brand of slugs I could find over the past few years. The mfgs. keep getting better at building good quality and accurate slugs. However, each shotgun barrel shoots different from my experience and you will need to try a few brands out to find what shoots in your barrel the best.

After it is all said and done and many sore shoulders later, I have found that the finest, (most dependable and accurate) slug I could find for my Rem. 870 is the: LIGHTFIELD HYBRID EXP .12 GA slug.
They are awesome! They shot good in my Mossberg 500A slug gun too. Give 'em a try, you won't be sorry... Good luck.

[Deerhunter]

I have mentioned this in other posts. I have a Reminton 870 with a Remington slug barrel that I shoot the Hornady SSTs out of. My buddy has a Mossberg (with Mossberg slug barrel) that he shoots them out of. We have been hunting with those guns for about 12 years. We have tried a bunch of different slugs out of them. All the hollow points and everything that we could find. When the SSTs came out I bought some. I still had some old mix match slugs laying around and so did he. We hit the range and both found that the SSTs shot the best. I have hit several deer with them. Some flip over right there. Most we have had one run after getting hit with one of those SSTs was about 40 yards.

[Rob228]

Maybe I've been too modernized.... I shoot Federal Sabots out of a Hastings barrel on an old 870 wingmaster and get 3" at 100 yards, and I'm sure if I upgrade to higher quality slugs (Hornady etc) it will tighten up (even though it HURTS to get sighted in). However, if we're talking 100 and under, as long as you can hit what you aim at, the slug will kill it.

[DG45]

Thanks to all who've responded.

On the thread that inspired this one, the OP was advised to use Brenneke slugs in his rifled shotgun barrel instead of the sabot slugs which you normally would use in a rifled shotgun barrel. I'd had a couple of drinks before I read the thread and I apparently misinterpreted the Q & A to mean the OP was asking about and was being advised about using Brenneke slugs instead of sabots in a smooth bore shotgun. That's why I was wondering why Brennekes were being preferred over a Foster slug in a smooth bore. My mistake. Having now gone back and reread that thread, I'm not sure anyone ever said they were. This thread has clearly shown there are differences of opinion on the subject, although so far no one has said the Remington sluggers I use are better. The deerhunter using the Hornady SST's seemed quite positive that they are the best based on his experience with a number of different types of slugs. I tend to respect experience.

Now that I understand the Q & A on that other thread, its clear to me that the main benefit of using a Brenneke slug in a rifled barrel is that the Brenneke is much less expensive than a sabot slug is, and the Brenneke is preferred in a rifled barrel over a Foster type slug because it supposedly isn't as harmful to a rifled barrel as a Foster type slug is.

So, the only question I have left is at what distance does the better long range accuracy of a sabot slug in a rifled shotgun barrel offset the cost benefit of the cheaper Brenneke price? I'm assuming from things I've read, not from experience, that a sabot slug from a rifled shotgun barrel has an effective hunting range of about 110 yards. So, what kind of effective hunting accuracy can be expected from a Brenneke slug fired from a rifled barrel? If its no more than about 45-50 yards, its no more accurate than a Remington Slugger is in my old smoothbore Remington Model 11.

[DPris]

Some assertions above I don't agree with.

Brenneke's are heavier, harder, and offer more of a cookie-cutter effect than softer roundnosed Fosters. On deer & people, Fosters will do just fine. For deeper penetration and greater tissue damage, along with superior large bone breakage (important in many cases on larger bears, for example) the Brennekes offer better performance.

Both Brennekes and Fosters can be reasonably accurate in a smoothbore out to 100 yards, depending on how well you match the load to your shotgun, and what type of sights (bead vs real sights) you have on your gun.

Neither Brennekes nor Fosters are "harmful" to a rifled bore. Softer Fosters will probably tend to leave a bit more leading in the rifling, but that again depends on how rough or how smooth your rifling is and how much you shoot it with Fosters. Leading is not harmful to rifling, it just needs to be cleaned out periodically, IF it occurs.

A saboted "slug", which is really a jacketed bullet, may run well beyond 110 yards with viable accuracy in a rifled bore, again depending on the gun & the sights on it. A good bore and even a low-powered scope can surprise you.
A Brennecke and a Foster can easily run beyond 100 yards in a rifled barrel, again with decent sights. A saboted bullet will frequently leave a plastic residue in a rifled bore from the sabot, again not harmful, just needs cleaning. The degree of residue depends on how many sabots you run through the barrel without cleaning.

Either slug will retain more energy at distance because of their greater weights than a saboted bullet.

Denis

[DG45]

Now I AM confused. The last poster - if I correctly understand his point - conveys the idea that there's very little reason to ever use a sabot, even in a rifled barrel, because its basically not much more accurate than a Foster or Brenneke slug, which he says can be accurate out to 100 yards or so, even in a smoothbore.

I have to wonder about that. I've shot a few Foster-type slugs myself from a smoothbore shotgun. I'd say that the maximum distance I can reliably hit anything with, with a 12 gauge Remington Slugger slug, when shot from my Remington Model 11, with its 26" I/C barrel, is 50-60 yards. Anything inside that distance is dead meat. Anything outside it has a chance.

[hogdogs]

Well the post by denis may or may not be accurate regarding the regular slugs in a rifled bore... First thing to consider is the fact that a bullet in a rifle barrel is a tight fit all the way down the bore. I think standard slugs are inherently smaller than the bore so they can be safely fired thru any traditional choke up to and including FULL... So the rifled bore may or may not impart the spin that it does on a sabot slug... Next consideration is that the design of a traditional slug is to fly straight and true with NO imparted spin. Just as a shuttle cock in badminton. So will imparting spin help it further or hinder it?

As for me and a regular slug, I am very confident that I can consistently put a 20 gauge slug in a pie plate size spot time after time from an 18 inch cylinder bore Mossberg at 60-65 yards. I could take a shot at 80 yards and probably hit the mark but "probably" shots are relegated to empty belly hunting rather than regular hunting.

Brent

[DG45]

hotdogs, the difference in your accurate range and mine is probably because my old gun was built primarily to shoot shotshells, not slugs. Its a 74 year old, all-purpose Remington Model 11 with a fixed I/C barrel and a bead for a sight. No rifle sights; no scopes, no adjustments. IMHO, it's one of the all time great shotguns, but its certainly not the best slug gun in the world.

[DPris]

DG,
The term "accurate" may be somewhat variable from user to user.

I said Brennekes and Fosters can be "reasonably" accurate to 100 yards in a smoothbore barrel, in matching a load to your own bore, and with sights.
What's "reasonably accurate" in that context, for me, is 6-8-inch groups. Some shooters and some guns can do better.

Others may feel that's not accurate, or sufficiently accurate, by their own definition. I'd say the term is a relative one in that 6-8 inches is poor accuracy in a rifle, but in a non-rifled shotgun designed for multiple pellets, that's actually not bad at all, and certainly viable for either hunting or self-defense uses at that distance.

A saboted bullet generally offers better accuracy in a rifled bore WITH good sights. The bullet is designed for better ballistics in terms of both aerodynamics and terminal performance (flies better in bucking air resistance & SHOULD retain better accuracy farther with its "bullet-shaped" profile than a slug of either type, and it's designed to expand during penetration) on most lighter animals.
The sabot engages the rifling down the barrel, and once it drops off a few feet from the muzzle, it continues on as a true bullet, with stabilizing spin as it goes.

Either type of slug will engage rifling, and both will spin as they fly. That adds a certain amount of stabilizing influence, but the blunt noses and cylindrical configurations will not provide the best aerodynamics as they go.

On deer, all three types will work just fine, assuming you place them correctly. Your odds of doing that at distance increase substantially with sabots in a rifled bore with sights. More so with a low magnification scope mounted. In such cases you're essentially converting a shotgun to a rifle, firing a bullet, and you can & should expect better long range performance on appropriate targets.

Slugs of either type CAN be very viable through a smoothbore at 100 yards, but for most of us to achieve it the gun has to have real sights. In a recent discussion of this issue elsewhere, a couple posters said they were able to use slugs effectively in their bead-sighted smoothbores out to 200 yards. I can't, and I'd say they're the exception.

I'd assume your 26-inch Remington Model 11 has a bead sight, in which case it's hardly surprising that you find your practical accuracy limited to about 50 yards. I've taken slugs a bit farther with a bead, but I consider 50-75 yards about average in realistic expectations.
Regulation with beads is often problematical, they may or may not put a slug anywhere near point of aim, which increases the difficulty of placing one where you want it as distances increase and you have to hold over or under. Beads also don't provide repeatable reference points in sighting like real sights do, and you can't match up point of aim with point of impact with a bead like you can with sights.

I'm not saying there's little reason to use a saboted round. They can extend the effective hunting range of a rifled barrel with sights over slugs in the same barrel. They do so at the cost of less penetration, which is more important in certain defensive applications (large hostile critters that may come after YOU) than in hunting smaller animals like deer.

In my own case, since I don't hunt with a shotgun, I prefer either the Remington BuckHammer or one of the Brennecke slugs for ATV carry in high timber as a defensive package. All three of my 870s have sights. After some years in policing with a bead, I will not handicap myself with one again.
That's just me.

Last week I was working with an inexpensive Savage/Stevens 350 shotgun with 18-inch smoothbore barrel that put three Brennecke slugs into 1 7/8 inches off the bench at 50 yards. WITH ghost-ring sights. No doubt that combo would easily hold hunting accuracy out to 100 yards & beyond if it had to. Conversely, another brand of slugs put three into 8 inches at the same distance in the same gun.
Matching your gun & load is important for best accuracy, and every shotgun barrel's different in what it likes best.

No need to be confused, it's just a matter of understanding the variables and not trying to equate the three projectile types equally in application.
Slugs can be "reasonably" accurate through a smoothbore to 100 yards, can be more accurate in a rifled barrel, assuming sights & not a bead for either use.
Saboted bullets can extend that useful range farther in a rifled bore, again with sights.

Some people may very well be phenominally accurate with a beaded smoothbore, but for most of us it's infinitely harder to do than with real sights, and most shooters can't maximize slug effectiveness with a bead.

What works "best" and what does or does not justify costs over other alternatives depends on the user, the platform, and the context.
I prefer the BH or the Brennecke because they offer decent accuracy at DEFENSIVE distances in my guns that are set up for them, along with hardened lead that's capable of deeper penetration and bone-busting than sabots. My applications don't include 150-yard deer hunting.
In a hunting context, using an appropriate platform (rifling & sights or glass), the sabots can offer superior range, accuracy, and utility.

You have to match the gun & load to the context.

Hog,
Slug diameters can vary, but most are close to the smoothbore's internal diameter. Standard slugs generally deal with different chokes by using the so-called "rifling" on the slugs to swage their walls down as they pass through the choke. They can be full bore size (or very near) and still not create excessive pressures at the choke.

The saboted bullet never touches the rifling anyway, the sabot does. The saboted bullet is much smaller in diameter than the inside of the bore.

Denis

[Deerhunter]

DG45

Like I said I have used a lot of the sluggs out there. My buddy has a nice scope one hit shotgun and can get a good look at the 100 yard target and has his sighted in for 100 and knows POA for 50. I have a red dot on my shotgun so 100 yard target is a bit much to see through it. I am sighted in for 1 inch high at 50. I then took a couple shots at the 100 (paper target is different then a deer at 100). I have no issues hitting at 100 if I have to.

We were out 2 years ago and he jumped 2 doe. They broke out across a field before they got up to where I was. I took a shot and missed. Figured they might be further away then I though they were. I held just over their back and fired. The lead was good problem was that I held high, right over their back. My buddy asked me later and we walked out to see where they were running, turned out to be about 130 yards. I aimed about about 2 to 3 inches high, right over them.

I have shot all the Remington slugs and some winchesters and well just about anything they had on sale between my Mossberg 500 smooth bore, my buddy's 500 rifled and my Reminton rifled and the SSTs are our choice.

[DG45]

DPris, I think my problem with slug accuracy is not just with my gun, which has only a bead for a sight, but I don't get a lot of practice with slugs either.

I used to shoot handguns a lot. Mine were all old style guns without adjustable sights. But I shot them so much, that I knew almost by osmosis, where to aim so that my bullets would hit my target at various distances. When I was shooting my own guns, I was easily as accurate with my "Kentucky windage" techniques as most of the guys I knew were who used adjustible sights.

The same thing might be true if I shot a lot of slugs, but I don't go hunting in the woods anymore, and really don't have any reason to use heavy loads like slugs (or buckshot either) anymore. I just shoot a fivepack of slugs and double ought once or twice a year at targets, just to stay familiar with my guns and the different types of ammo they shoot. I just sort of aim at what i want to hit. That doesn't work when using slugs on distant targets.

[rantingredneck]

IMO, the biggest reason to use Brenneke's on hogs is the harder cast lead, which will resist deformation and thus increase penetration on tough skinned game. Their designer, Otto Brenneke, developed them for hunting European boars after all.

They also tend to be fairly accurate out of every rifle sighted smoothbore shotgun I've tried them in. Due to the attached wad they amplify the weight forward design that helps stabilize slugs from a smoothbore since they aren't spinning.

Brent,
The slugs may be slightly underbore, but as DPris said,they're close and the slugs themselves have either a hollow base (Foster) or attached plastic wad (Brenneke) or a combination (Federal Truball) which expands to bore diameter.

[DPris]

DG,
I'm not trying to sell you on anything, just explaining & trying to answer your questions.

Over the past three or four centuries people have accomplished various goals with various guns using beads (even on handguns) and fixed sights.
It's entirely possible to achieve solid hits at different distances with different platforms using fixed sights.
It is not, however, particularly efficient across the board.

I've used fixed sights on duty handguns and never had a problem qualifying.
In some cases, the issued cartridge of the day did not match up well with where the sights were regulated, but distances (25 yards max) were close enough that it didn't matter all that much. With some Alabama Overunderage I could place hits in center mass well enough to score.

When circumstances allowed, though, I did appreciate the ability to zero the duty gun using adjustable sights in mating POA to POI.
It just required less work.
It was also a nuisance at times in switching around from gun to gun in trying to remember which one shoots where relative to POA.
I like to, wherever possible, regulate my adjustable handgun sights to print the same place at 25 yards from gun to gun. Again- simpler & less work.

My father several decades ago switched from a fixed S&W Model 10 to an adjustable Model 15 at work after getting tired of having to adjust himself from load to load, instead of adjusting the gun.

Yes, you can, with sufficient familiarity, develop workable skills with a lesser sighting system, but as distances increase it does involve more work, and more guesswork. That can increase when switching to a different load that doesn't perform the same.

Even with adjustables there's still some need for experienced "guesswork" at varying distances, but once zeroed to put a slug in a specific spot relative to your sights (at 50, 75 or 100 yards), you have a known standard of performance for your gun & load, along with repeatable points of sighting reference to line up your eye with two sighting points that offer infinitely better consistency than trying to center the bead in the same place on the receiver top grooves and trying to find the same bead elevation above them.

Brennekes or saboted bullets are probably better reserved for shotgunners who are more into an advanced level of accuracy on a regular basis than the casual shooter who throws a few downrange each year, like you. And that's no insult.

The Brenneckes & the sabots are high-performance loads, and if you don't need high performance & don't have a gun set up to take full advantage of it, there's probably not much point in spending the money.

Denis

[SomeGuyInMidwest]

If you have a rifled barrel, Winchester Partition Gold slugs are tough to beat for accuracy and penetration. They are, of course, a little more expensive. Another one that is good for rifled barrels with lots of knockdown power is the Remington Buckhammer. They come in a shoulder crushing 3 inch version that are pretty accurate and sure to ruin the day of any walking porkchop.