explaining to an anti gun person - Page 3

Dave85 · March 23, 2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

"If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand"
Does that apply here? Or you think it would just make them pissy.

Whatever reaction they would have, it probably wouldn't be positive. It would certainly shut the door to a discussion that may very well end up with someone opening themselves up to the benefits of guns in society.

DieHard06 · March 24, 2009, 08:34 AM

Quote:

“He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” - Luke 22:36 (King James Version) (caution: this is so out of context that the meaning is most likely the opposite of what it sounds like, read by itself)

Not to get into a religious debate, but Luke 22:36 interpreted in context is Jesus telling His disciples that they should be prepared to defend themselves as they travel the roads which were often filled with bandits. I nor any commentary I have ever read would not interpret it any other way. I am not saying it is a good argument to use, unless of course, you are talking to a Bible believing Christian who does not believe in guns.

mrray13 · March 24, 2009, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieHard06

Quote:

“He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” - Luke 22:36 (King James Version) (caution: this is so out of context that the meaning is most likely the opposite of what it sounds like, read by itself)

Not to get into a religious debate, but Luke 22:36 interpreted in context is Jesus telling His disciples that they should be prepared to defend themselves as they travel the roads which were often filled with bandits. I nor any commentary I have ever read would not interpret it any other way. I am not saying it is a good argument to use, unless of course, you are talking to a Bible believing Christian who does not believe in guns.

i think it would be a perfect arguement to use, if that's the whole context of the original quote.(not that famalier with the bible) it couldn't apply any better then, then it actually applies today. honestly, how would it not apply? unless your speaking with an aethest. but then again, unless they are stupid, even they would be able to see the relativity in that verse.

DieHard06 · March 24, 2009, 09:10 AM

mrray13,

I agree with you. I just wanted to specify that I was contesting his interpretation of that verse not the merits of using that verse as an argument with an antigun person.

harleyriderTN · March 24, 2009, 09:31 AM

If you open carry you now become a target should a situation arise and most cops will harrass you too. To conceal is better for the element of suprise.

verb1 · March 30, 2009, 05:01 PM

Different people have different upbringings and exposures to guns. It shapes their opinions, and some people are just uncomfortable with the idea of guns. Just explain to them that they're for self-defense/fun/hunting/competition and not for hurting anyone. If they don't understand or are uncomfortable, what can you do? Everyone has a right to to their opinion.

IMO, by the way, carrying open is asking for problems. Best to keep it concealed.

OLNfan · March 30, 2009, 05:23 PM

I once talked with a fella great guy met him at the rod n gun club. He has a few houses one here in B.C Canada, U.S Oregon, and another one I cant remember (in the states). He told me that he hates going to the bar in Canada because theirs always a fight (which is true, but I belive its like that at any bar). He told me that theirs not even half the fights in a bar in the states than canada. He firmly believe the reason is conceal carry. And its a great detterent. He said no one picked fights casue you wouldnt want to pick on a guy who had a conceal carry. I thought this was really neat. I dont think that their is a difference in the fights in bars between Canada and the States but it was just intresting hearing his perspective.

brockgl · March 30, 2009, 06:05 PM

After reading this thread and all of its posts, I am now a much bigger proponent of Open Carry. The posters here in favor (or at least in the defense) of open carry have been the ones with the most calm and rational arguments.

I think we gun owners have been forced to feel like criminals for FAR too long. We need to cause waves. Those of us who have a kind demeanor and logical arguments at the ready should open carry for sure (if it is legal in your state)! Those of us who aren't ready or willing to defend the right should conceal. Seems simple enough.

I have yet to see any recorded evidence of an open carrier being the target of violence. So, that tired old argument has very little affect on me. The more I think about it, it seems as if it would be an excellent deterrent. If you are dressed presentably, criminals may just think you are an undercover cop.

I guess I don't have any arguments to make, but I have definitely learned from this thread.

Ricklin · March 30, 2009, 08:00 PM

Some departments require their troops to carry concealed while off duty. I know many if not most LEO's carry concealed.

You give up a decided tactical advantage, perhaps the #1 tactical advantage by open carrying when you could conceal.

A gun on your hip might work in 1890, it don't work in 1990 and beyond.

Discretion is the better part of valor.

I sure can't think of a more appropriate time to use that old saw.

5Wire · March 30, 2009, 08:07 PM

Gun. what gun?

mrray13 · March 31, 2009, 10:18 AM

open carry makes one a target? so ever time i clock in, i'm a target? it's required of me to carry on my hip when at work, yet most BGs walk away from me. ok, the badge might help..blah, blah.

tactical advantage of CC vs open? ok...so they see your gun, they know you have a gun, are they really goning to mess with you? and then, let's see, if i carry open, i simply draw (unsnap is the same process) with my strong hand, my weakhnad can now be used for anything else, like getting my wife on the ground, using my flashlight, dialing 911....whereas in concealed carry, my weakhand has to come across my body (in most cases), lift my garment while my strong hand does it's work. or my strong hand has to reach into a pocket (what if i'm kneeling on my strong side due to cover issues) and hope my pocket holster grabs..and i could go on.

the element of surprise is a tactical advantage, but only if you can use it. there are many ways carrying concealed can forfiet any time gained by the surprise vs the fact the holster is already out. also, if a BG walks into a place and sees, oh i don't know, 6 people who are carrying openly (you know you aren't the only one carrying concealed, right?), or even just 2, do you think they are still going to try thier game? or wait until those people are gone and take their chances that noone is carrying concealed? openly guard dog or guard dog in sheeps clothing? the argument can go both ways, but ask yoruself this...

i am walking down the street, my glock strapped on my side in plainview. you are on the other side of the street, your sidearm tucked nicely wherever...BG gets out of a car and wants to rob one of us...which one do you think he picks??

also, my department does indeed require us to conceal offduty, my captain agrees with me, we should have the choice. however, our chief doesn't even carry offduty most times, so we'll never win that argument. but if given the choice, open carry every time. and if more people did, i personally believe that you'll find less waves being made then one thinks. and instead of a target, you'l find open carry is an even better deterrent then CC, because the bad guys know they aren't the only ones armed. but that's just my opinion...

1Badshot · March 31, 2009, 07:09 PM

There are sheep,shepherds and sheepdogs..woof woof!

OhioAAA · April 1, 2009, 05:07 AM

Quote:

open carry makes one a target? so ever time i clock in, i'm a target? it's required of me to carry on my hip when at work, yet most BGs walk away from me. ok, the badge might help..blah, blah.

tactical advantage of CC vs open? ok...so they see your gun, they know you have a gun, are they really goning to mess with you? and then, let's see, if i carry open, i simply draw (unsnap is the same process) with my strong hand, my weakhnad can now be used for anything else, like getting my wife on the ground, using my flashlight, dialing 911....whereas in concealed carry, my weakhand has to come across my body (in most cases), lift my garment while my strong hand does it's work. or my strong hand has to reach into a pocket (what if i'm kneeling on my strong side due to cover issues) and hope my pocket holster grabs..and i could go on.

the element of surprise is a tactical advantage, but only if you can use it. there are many ways carrying concealed can forfiet any time gained by the surprise vs the fact the holster is already out. also, if a BG walks into a place and sees, oh i don't know, 6 people who are carrying openly (you know you aren't the only one carrying concealed, right?), or even just 2, do you think they are still going to try thier game? or wait until those people are gone and take their chances that noone is carrying concealed? openly guard dog or guard dog in sheeps clothing? the argument can go both ways, but ask yoruself this...

i am walking down the street, my glock strapped on my side in plainview. you are on the other side of the street, your sidearm tucked nicely wherever...BG gets out of a car and wants to rob one of us...which one do you think he picks??

also, my department does indeed require us to conceal offduty, my captain agrees with me, we should have the choice. however, our chief doesn't even carry offduty most times, so we'll never win that argument. but if given the choice, open carry every time. and if more people did, i personally believe that you'll find less waves being made then one thinks. and instead of a target, you'l find open carry is an even better deterrent then CC, because the bad guys know they aren't the only ones armed. but that's just my opinion...

+1,000

Hornett · April 1, 2009, 10:15 AM

This is purely humorous, but here is a demonstration of the advantages of concealed carry

Code of Silence robbery scene Edit to add : Caution for foul language in this clip

There ARE a lot of good arguments for open carry in this thread, but it all hinges on a high percentage of people open carrying. Like in Arizona.

mrray13 · April 1, 2009, 10:41 AM

hornett...and we all know what happens in movies is exactly the way it'll happen in real life, right?

naw, it's funny, that is true. but in no way does that offer any kind of demonstration of the advantage of CC over OC. that just shows a well rehearsed scene.

Hornett · April 1, 2009, 12:12 PM

I always have mine concealed.
Because I do believe it add an element of surprise to my advantage.
Would the crime (whatever it was) have been prevented if my handgun was exposed? Maybe. Maybe not.
But then the perpetrator will just go on to find another victim.

OC or CC. It really doesn't make much difference to me.
I just want to see as much C(arry) as possible.

BTW that clip was meant to be humorous, not serious.
It is the first thing I thought of when I started reading this thread.

mrray13 · April 1, 2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

OC or CC. It really doesn't make much difference to me.
I just want to see as much C(arry) as possible.

and that's the statement that hits the nail square on the head...

TheTinMan · April 2, 2009, 12:00 PM

"Why? Because I don't want me or a member of my family to be a victim."

voyager4520 · April 2, 2009, 01:40 PM

I think law-abiding citizens(and there are some messed up laws, so even some non-law-abiding ones) should be able to carry at their leisure except when in a physical job that doesn't really allow you to or when you're visiting a jail or prison.

I don't see a reason for open carry unless you're hunting, going to a gun show, or going to a place with plenty of law enforcement, the latter two because there are already so many people there known to be armed that concealing yours doesn't really give you a tactical advantage.

johnwilliamson062 · April 2, 2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

I think that a CCW should be well concealed. Guns make people nervous.

Only b/c people are not used to it. Guns didn't have that effect 200 years ago. They don't on the hips of LEOs. Open carry a little and get people used to the idea.

OuTcAsT · April 2, 2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

the element of surprise is a tactical advantage, but only if you can use it. there are many ways carrying concealed can forfiet any time gained by the surprise vs the fact the holster is already out. also, if a BG walks into a place and sees, oh i don't know, 6 people who are carrying openly (you know you aren't the only one carrying concealed, right?), or even just 2, do you think they are still going to try thier game? or wait until those people are gone and take their chances that noone is carrying concealed? openly guard dog or guard dog in sheeps clothing? the argument can go both ways, but ask yoruself this...

i am walking down the street, my glock strapped on my side in plainview. you are on the other side of the street, your sidearm tucked nicely wherever...BG gets out of a car and wants to rob one of us...which one do you think he picks??

Exactly.

While I carry concealed some of the time due to my job, most of the time I carry openly, why? ...^^^

#18indycolts · April 2, 2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Only b/c people are not used to it. Guns didn't have that effect 200 years ago.

I can name a BUNCH of things that had a different effect on our society than it did 200 yrs. ago.

Tatsumi67 · April 2, 2009, 03:03 PM

I once met a woman who actively got uppity with me, for no apparent reason, without any provocation and said "guns should be banned, I dont event think cops should have them"

I laughed out loud and replied "Well we can't rewrite the laws of physics to make flying metal not harm the human body. So you might as well even the playing field."

Creature · April 2, 2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

I once met a woman who actively got uppity with me, for no apparent reason, without any provocation and said "guns should be banned, I dont event think cops should have them"

$5/US says she would change her tune if she were holding the door closed from a knife-wielding rapist\murderer...

Yankee Doodle · April 2, 2009, 04:42 PM

MY answer to my sister-in-law was, :I'm 70 years old, have a slight heart condition, am too slow to box, too light to wrestle, and not flexible enough for karate. However, I still love your sister, and will do anything I have to in order to protect her." The loudmouth was stuck for an answer.
Case closed.

March 30, 2009, 05:23 PM	#57
OLNfan Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: British Columbia Canada Posts: 277	I once talked with a fella great guy met him at the rod n gun club. He has a few houses one here in B.C Canada, U.S Oregon, and another one I cant remember (in the states). He told me that he hates going to the bar in Canada because theirs always a fight (which is true, but I belive its like that at any bar). He told me that theirs not even half the fights in a bar in the states than canada. He firmly believe the reason is conceal carry. And its a great detterent. He said no one picked fights casue you wouldnt want to pick on a guy who had a conceal carry. I thought this was really neat. I dont think that their is a difference in the fights in bars between Canada and the States but it was just intresting hearing his perspective. __________________ "Dear Governor Axtell. I've heard that you will give 200 dollars for my head. Perhaps we should meet and talk. I am at the Juarez village at the border. Send 3 men, and instruct them not to shoot, as I am unarmed. In short, Sir; I surrender. Your obedient servant William H. Bonney. PS: I changed my mind. Kiss my ass."

March 30, 2009, 08:00 PM	#59
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,011	Do what the LEO's do! Some departments require their troops to carry concealed while off duty. I know many if not most LEO's carry concealed. You give up a decided tactical advantage, perhaps the #1 tactical advantage by open carrying when you could conceal. A gun on your hip might work in 1890, it don't work in 1990 and beyond. Discretion is the better part of valor. I sure can't think of a more appropriate time to use that old saw. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

March 30, 2009, 08:07 PM	#60
5Wire Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2008 Posts: 262	Gun. what gun? __________________ 5Wire (Bob) *We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.*

April 1, 2009, 10:15 AM	#64
Hornett Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2006 Posts: 569	This is purely humorous, but here is a demonstration of the advantages of concealed carry Code of Silence robbery scene Edit to add : Caution for foul language in this clip There ARE a lot of good arguments for open carry in this thread, but it all hinges on a high percentage of people open carrying. Like in Arizona. __________________ Guns don't kill people, Jack Bauer kills people.

April 1, 2009, 12:12 PM	#66
Hornett Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2006 Posts: 569	I always have mine concealed. Because I do believe it add an element of surprise to my advantage. Would the crime (whatever it was) have been prevented if my handgun was exposed? Maybe. Maybe not. But then the perpetrator will just go on to find another victim. OC or CC. It really doesn't make much difference to me. I just want to see as much C(arry) as possible. BTW that clip was meant to be humorous, not serious. It is the first thing I thought of when I started reading this thread. __________________ Guns don't kill people, Jack Bauer kills people. Last edited by Hornett; April 1, 2009 at 12:56 PM.

March 24, 2009, 09:10 AM	#54
DieHard06 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Easton, PA Posts: 216	mrray13, I agree with you. I just wanted to specify that I was contesting his interpretation of that verse not the merits of using that verse as an argument with an antigun person.

March 24, 2009, 09:31 AM	#55
harleyriderTN Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: LINDEN TN Posts: 87	If you open carry you now become a target should a situation arise and most cops will harrass you too. To conceal is better for the element of suprise.

March 30, 2009, 05:01 PM	#56
verb1 Member Join Date: March 23, 2009 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 21	Different people have different upbringings and exposures to guns. It shapes their opinions, and some people are just uncomfortable with the idea of guns. Just explain to them that they're for self-defense/fun/hunting/competition and not for hurting anyone. If they don't understand or are uncomfortable, what can you do? Everyone has a right to to their opinion. IMO, by the way, carrying open is asking for problems. Best to keep it concealed.

March 30, 2009, 06:05 PM	#58
brockgl Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2002 Posts: 246	After reading this thread and all of its posts, I am now a much bigger proponent of Open Carry. The posters here in favor (or at least in the defense) of open carry have been the ones with the most calm and rational arguments. I think we gun owners have been forced to feel like criminals for FAR too long. We need to cause waves. Those of us who have a kind demeanor and logical arguments at the ready should open carry for sure (if it is legal in your state)! Those of us who aren't ready or willing to defend the right should conceal. Seems simple enough. I have yet to see any recorded evidence of an open carrier being the target of violence. So, that tired old argument has very little affect on me. The more I think about it, it seems as if it would be an excellent deterrent. If you are dressed presentably, criminals may just think you are an undercover cop. I guess I don't have any arguments to make, but I have definitely learned from this thread.

March 31, 2009, 10:18 AM	#61
mrray13 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 911	open carry makes one a target? so ever time i clock in, i'm a target? it's required of me to carry on my hip when at work, yet most BGs walk away from me. ok, the badge might help..blah, blah. tactical advantage of CC vs open? ok...so they see your gun, they know you have a gun, are they really goning to mess with you? and then, let's see, if i carry open, i simply draw (unsnap is the same process) with my strong hand, my weakhnad can now be used for anything else, like getting my wife on the ground, using my flashlight, dialing 911....whereas in concealed carry, my weakhand has to come across my body (in most cases), lift my garment while my strong hand does it's work. or my strong hand has to reach into a pocket (what if i'm kneeling on my strong side due to cover issues) and hope my pocket holster grabs..and i could go on. the element of surprise is a tactical advantage, but only if you can use it. there are many ways carrying concealed can forfiet any time gained by the surprise vs the fact the holster is already out. also, if a BG walks into a place and sees, oh i don't know, 6 people who are carrying openly (you know you aren't the only one carrying concealed, right?), or even just 2, do you think they are still going to try thier game? or wait until those people are gone and take their chances that noone is carrying concealed? openly guard dog or guard dog in sheeps clothing? the argument can go both ways, but ask yoruself this... i am walking down the street, my glock strapped on my side in plainview. you are on the other side of the street, your sidearm tucked nicely wherever...BG gets out of a car and wants to rob one of us...which one do you think he picks?? also, my department does indeed require us to conceal offduty, my captain agrees with me, we should have the choice. however, our chief doesn't even carry offduty most times, so we'll never win that argument. but if given the choice, open carry every time. and if more people did, i personally believe that you'll find less waves being made then one thinks. and instead of a target, you'l find open carry is an even better deterrent then CC, because the bad guys know they aren't the only ones armed. but that's just my opinion...

March 31, 2009, 07:09 PM	#62
1Badshot Member Join Date: February 13, 2008 Location: Chicago Il Posts: 18	There are sheep,shepherds and sheepdogs..woof woof!

April 1, 2009, 10:41 AM	#65
mrray13 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 911	hornett...and we all know what happens in movies is exactly the way it'll happen in real life, right? naw, it's funny, that is true. but in no way does that offer any kind of demonstration of the advantage of CC over OC. that just shows a well rehearsed scene.

April 2, 2009, 12:00 PM	#68
TheTinMan Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2008 Posts: 102	"Why? Because I don't want me or a member of my family to be a victim."

April 2, 2009, 01:40 PM	#69
voyager4520 Senior Member Join Date: April 1, 2009 Location: SE Colorado Posts: 840	I think law-abiding citizens(and there are some messed up laws, so even some non-law-abiding ones) should be able to carry at their leisure except when in a physical job that doesn't really allow you to or when you're visiting a jail or prison. I don't see a reason for open carry unless you're hunting, going to a gun show, or going to a place with plenty of law enforcement, the latter two because there are already so many people there known to be armed that concealing yours doesn't really give you a tactical advantage.

April 2, 2009, 03:03 PM	#73
Tatsumi67 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Posts: 575	I once met a woman who actively got uppity with me, for no apparent reason, without any provocation and said "guns should be banned, I dont event think cops should have them" I laughed out loud and replied "Well we can't rewrite the laws of physics to make flying metal not harm the human body. So you might as well even the playing field." __________________ "Do what you can, what you want, what you must,feel the hunger inside, just don't lose your trust" - KMFDM, Trust. NRA Member,Minnesota State Safety Certified, Eagle Scout Currently schemeing on an AR-15 build.

April 2, 2009, 04:42 PM	#75
Yankee Doodle Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 619	MY answer to my sister-in-law was, :I'm 70 years old, have a slight heart condition, am too slow to box, too light to wrestle, and not flexible enough for karate. However, I still love your sister, and will do anything I have to in order to protect her." The loudmouth was stuck for an answer. Case closed.