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May 22, 2008, 09:40 AM | #76 | |
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+1 David Armstrong |
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May 22, 2008, 10:41 AM | #77 |
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What exactly classifies as a "worst case" scenario.
For example, about one month ago on cable they showed some security camera footage of the Angels and Mongols duking it out in a public gambling casino. One of them pulled a gun, one person was shot to death. Well, my wife and my SIL like to go to an Indian gaming casino nearby for the afternoons until their roll of pennies is gone. They also have a time-share in Vegas from a deceased uncle. So, the worst case scenario for my wife is being caught in the crossfire of a national biker gang war. My wife is a suburban teacher who's never even gotten a parking ticket. She's so squeaky clean I cannot figure out how we got together in the first place. So let's go to the other extreme. The worst I've seen is pool cues and knives. Got my nose broken twice watching drunken bubbas spit up all over themselves. By the parameters of the debate, my wife has a greater scenario risk. I'm not sure they sell GE mini-guns to teachers. |
May 22, 2008, 12:33 PM | #78 | ||
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"LIKELY is the operative word. I wouldn't bet my well being on "likely" and neither should you."
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When I'm out in the field I have a Smith & Wesson 629 Mountain Gun for curiously aggressive Black Bears. It's all called COMMON SENSE where I'm from. Your perceptions are obviously different. Quote:
So, why WOULD you even POSSESS a firearm - much less CARRY one if it's not for the scenario that you'd have to use it to full effect???
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May 22, 2008, 01:07 PM | #79 | |
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As stated earlier, no one here is saying a mouse gun is better... were saying a mouse gun is a tool for a job that the bigger weapons dont fit in. you can go secure yourself an attack helicopter incase the neighbor wants your wallet... but my neighbor wouldnt be getting that easy smash and grab with a mouse lodging a little pea in his guts. the pistol is to give an edge when someone doesnt get the idea your dont want to be messed with... not gurantee you can kill 10 armored guys with black rifles. if you want to talk about preparing for a revolution, your words have merit. Were talking about getting to the mail box. |
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May 22, 2008, 03:00 PM | #80 | |
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David
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However, with a lack of dependable data to prove that point, and while the choice of a mouse works for you, it does not work for me. That said, I don't feel the need to carry a Lupara on a daily basis, but I do draw the line with a J Frame Smith or a compact 9MM semi auto.
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May 22, 2008, 03:10 PM | #81 | |
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Better to Have and not Need...
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The "debate" is whether or not it is wise to carry something that you would actually WANT to have if you were confronted with deadly force or carry something that is ubber convenient and less than ideal. And last I checked being physically assaulted by someone(s) or something(s) with intent to do grave bodily injury or worse would, in fact, be a "worst case scenario". The probability and the possibility are entirely different. The end result is the same. The kind of thinking being advocated leaves too much of the door open for many scenarios - multiple assaulters, highly motivated assaulter(s), very combative dogs. I feel it's much better to have a proper fighting pistol and not need it than the reverse...
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"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783 |
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May 22, 2008, 06:15 PM | #82 |
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the gun i carry, 45
my house gun pistol grip 12 guage(7 shot, 18 inch barrel) |
May 22, 2008, 08:38 PM | #83 |
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Humor
I've had an epiphany. I'll just get a tattoo of a mouse and a Kel-Tec on each bicep and it'll act as a talisman. Now I can leave all of the polymer & steel at home.
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May 22, 2008, 08:45 PM | #84 |
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FWIW, my Kel-Tec PF-9 could be referred to as a "rat gun," since it has a bit more bite than a mouse gun, being a 9x19.
The K-T P-11 is 9x19 also, and can be easily converted to .40 S&W (then you have a P-40) . I am not a mouse gun fan, either. 9x19 is as low as I care to go, given a choice. I am also going to shoot it in IDPA matches. Even though I do my best to NEVER have to use it in earnest, I try to be prepared if the worst comes.
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May 23, 2008, 05:36 AM | #85 |
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Good for you, shep. Few who carry micro-pistols ever really run them.
From the CPL classes I've assisted in they don't seem to last. That would be my first comment and the micro-pistols, as a genre, are difficult to really run: securing a good grip, runing failure drills, magazine changes and engaging and effectively hitting multiple targets (A zone) beyond, say, 7 yds at speed. I've tried them in El Presidente drills & "mini' El Presidente drills and they do not give me much confidence, but neither does a J frame. Both are intended as Back-Up weapons. All silliness aside I'd like to see you (and others) transition to something else. Some I've found to be concealable and more than adequate for the type of shooting you're considering: HK P7 HK P2000 HK P30 essentially something much easier to draw, shoot multiple targets with multiple shots at speed and keeping all shots within a fist-sized group, reload and run failure drills at speed, under pressure. You'll find yourself with more confidence in your ability and, at least for me, I began to actually enjoy carrying. YMMV
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May 23, 2008, 07:22 AM | #86 |
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In nearly 20 years of CCW, I have gone from full-size (Colt Commander) to the rat gun.
The PF-9 has a remarkably easy trigger, for a DOA. I do most of my shooting at 10 yd, right hand, both, left. At 10 yd, keeping shots center-mass is pretty easy. The IDPA thing is to help imprint tactics in my responses. While IDPA was conceived to reflect the real world, the temptation to let it become another game is strong. I doubt I will ever win a match, since simple speed is not my goal. While the timer does add some pressure, I strive to do things like use available cover effectively or keep distance from the targets, as much as I would want to do if I were actually shooting for my life. For example, at the last (well, actually the first) match I shot, there was a stage which was simply draw and shoot 10 rd at 5 targets (threat determined by distance). There just happened to be a couple of barrels standing at the firing line, to place gear on while preparing. When the timer sounded, I dropped behind them for cover, then shot. And so on through the match. As expected, I came in dead last, but if I build reactions that could save my bacon, it is worthwhile.
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May 23, 2008, 09:27 AM | #87 | |
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May 23, 2008, 10:36 AM | #88 |
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Jogging Alone, Unarmed - Nature is INTOLERANT of Fools
For those who like to jog off of the beaten path please take a look here. This just in from Southern Indiana:
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ind-canids/
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May 23, 2008, 12:30 PM | #89 | |||||
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From www.getoffthex.com forum. You have to register so I simply cut and pasted some responses from the LE guys who are either dog handlers, agitators or had run-ins with aggressive dogs while on duty.
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May 23, 2008, 07:31 PM | #90 |
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Chui, THAT is scary!
I have had enough interaction with dogs that I can usually "read" them; sound, posture, hair, ears, etc. Recently, though, I had encounter with a friend's pit bull that was plain eery (scary eery). My friend got the pit when she (dog) was about a year and a half old, so she had already been conditioned. During the evening, is seemed that I had "made friends" with the pit; she was playful and friendly. Just before I left, I was standing and talking to my friend. The dog was near my feet. I glanced down, and suddenly, there was a change in her. She didn't move a muscle, but her eyes went cold. I had done nothing provocative, but suddenly she went aggressive. My friend saw it also, and immediately pulled her back. Until that night, I have always been able predict, to some degree, a dog's behavior; even the pit of another friend who had raised her from weaning.
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May 24, 2008, 07:37 AM | #91 |
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Yes, I was raised around "bulldogs" (i.e., APBTs or American Pit Bull Terriers) but these dogs were from dogfighting bloodlines (and stock) so we never had any issues with them around humans but they'd inhale other dogs - except for the incident with the reserve mail carrier who sprayed him with mace.
I've asked a friend and police officer to put on a dog sleeve and allow his working dog to attack me such that I can "see for self" and use this as some sort of "fear innoculation". I don't think it's a good idea from a liability perspective, however. I love dogs and they never cease to amaze me when playing with them how agile and quick they are. Their ability to accelerate and change direction in mind boggling. I always remind myself that "a predator is showing signs of affection" as opposed to "hey, the nice dog wants to be petted". I adore them just the same but I've witnessed, first hand, the raw athleticism of dogs - from my own gamebred Pit Bulls (words defy their ability) to my cousin's French Bulldog-Standard Poodle cross (jaw dropping agility and strength). My brother owned a working strain Rottweiler pup and Caesar and I got very close as I'd always encourage him to wrestle when he was little. By the time he was 8 months old he must have weighed 70 lbs or more and he while I had him on his back wrestling with him a neighbor walked up. The speed in which he rolled, jumped and grabbed the guy's coat (only because he hit me on his launch) left me cold. Again, my biggest concern is to be ATTACKED not by two thugs though that would be horrible but to have something like an American Bulldog or Rottweiler deciding that I don't belong on the planet. ALL of your martial arts/pistol handling/pistol shooting will be severely tested. In fact, it's one of my recurring nightmares: American Bulldog interrupts whatever dream I'm having; his head is as large as mine and his teeth are the size of my thumbs. It aint pretty. This is why I've repeatedlyt suggested running at a local track and riding your bike with a full size pistol. That Labrador Retreiver down the street may well be friendly, but I cannot read their minds - only their body language - but this afternoon it may decide that you deserve nothing less than a full bore attack. Yes, you may be bitten but I'd like to read here that you vanquished it (i.e., DRT = dead right there). And just as your experience I had a Bassett Hound do the same damned thing to me. It snarled and snapped at me. Thank God I was really paying attention. I was pissed. I don't know what upset me more: me for misreading him or the dog for trying to bite ME, of all persons. Stay safe,
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May 26, 2008, 03:36 PM | #92 |
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Mannlicher, Some folks are fixated on statistics and probabilities. They choose to carry despite the high probability of never having to use the gun. Then they get crazy when we prepare for something slightly more improbable (having to force compliance by causing massive trauma and blood loss to the bad guy).
All IMO to justify not being willing, able, or both to carry bigger. I wouldn't go into bear country armed with a 9mm for the same reason I won't rely on a mouse against two legged critters. Lets break this down in probabilities. I am not statistically likely to be attacked by a bear despite being in bear country.....so a 9mm is adequate. If a bear does threaten me just the sight of my 9mm might frighten it away....so a 9mm is adequate. If a bear does attempt an attack firing a few rounds might frighten away the bear....so a 9mm is adequate. The last and most unlikely event is having to stop the bear still most sane folks who choose to carry in bear country carry bear medicine calibers. Self defense on the street to me is no different. The above is for those who carry mice on purpose only. for those who simply cannot carry larger anything is better than nothing. |
May 26, 2008, 06:57 PM | #93 | |
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May 26, 2008, 07:07 PM | #94 | ||||
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May 26, 2008, 07:11 PM | #95 | |
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May 26, 2008, 07:19 PM | #96 | ||
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May 27, 2008, 12:16 PM | #97 | ||
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I understand you perfectly David. I just disagree with you. Its hard to prove on paper of course but I feel a larger caliber could have swayed events in many shoot outs. Thats why I love your use of stats but only to an extent. There is a point were factors like a bullets ability to penetrate deeply and smash bones could have weighted heavier on the outcome. I know of 3 semi personal events were caliber might have changed the outcome. One I posted earlier.....had the bad guy hit the good lady with a heavier caliber (than a 22lr) she might have missed or been less accurate in her return fire. #2 My uncle, many moons ago, fired 3 rounds through the front door of his home at a man breaking his door down. The 38 special rounds penetrated the solid core door and struck the bad guy ending the attack. A 22 or 25 may not have been able to do so. #3 A friend visiting Miami for a family wedding got lost in the Liberty City area. While stopped at a light (pinned in by front and back traffic) a bad guy broke the passenger window with a pipe. My friend fired a single round through the metal between the front passenger door and rear glass. The round penetrated the metal and entered the bad guys lung ending the attack and allowing my friend and his wife to escape to call police. Could the 22 or 25 round have done the same? Here I have 3 semi personal examples were caliber might have effected the outcome. Yet I'm supposed to believe that caliber isn't a bigger deal than you and your stats indicate. Quote:
Stats are great but the real life around me seems to suggest that bigger is better as it relates to the mouse vs full sized carry gun calibers. |
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May 27, 2008, 12:44 PM | #98 | ||||||
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May 27, 2008, 01:00 PM | #99 | |
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May 27, 2008, 02:14 PM | #100 |
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Observation on dogs...
I have a few friends who have dogs that have never heard a firearm being shot, yet the moment any of us are ever handling firearms in a room, the dogs will usually clear the room in a hurry. These are different dogs owned by different people.
Epyon
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