Who Carries Reloaded for Self Defense?

[rolyasm]

I have heard from several people that you shouldn't carry your reloads for self defense. I would be interested by show of hands (forum response) who is carrying reloads and why? It seems a little backwards. I mean, the biggest reason I know of to reload is accuracy. Aside from hunting, I can't think of a better time to have my best accuracy possible in a self defense reload. I am new to reloading, and at this stage, yes, I always carry factory. Later on... not so black and white for me.

[kyle663]

i've heard reloads are a lawyers wet dream when it comes time for the family of the crook to sue you because you were itching to kill someone with youre well developed killer bullet. they're lots of well developed sd loads and it gives the lawyers one less bit of ammo to use against you.

[OldMarksman]

I mean, the biggest reason I know of to reload is accuracy. Aside from hunting, I can't think of a better time to have my best accuracy possible in a self defense reload.

It would seem to me that accuracy would almost always be a non-issue at any distance at which the defense of justifiability of the use of deadly force is likely to prevail.

i've heard reloads are a lawyers wet dream when it comes time for the family of the crook to sue you because you were itching to kill someone with youre well developed killer bullet. they're lots of well developed sd loads and it gives the lawyers one less bit of ammo to use against you.

That's widely said and I think it's worthy of heed, not only for potential civil liability but for criminal as well. Some people have in this forum demanded objective proof, but they evidently do not understand that lawyers will never commit to writing something discoverable that may prove detrimental to their later advocacy of a client who has used reloads.

For me, the driving issue is the admissibility of gunshot residue evidence. Suppose that I'm forced to shoot someone with a knife who is at point-blank range. His surviving accomplice testifies that no, I was much further back and that there was no imminent threat. If gunshot residue supports my case and is admitted I'm OK. There has been precedent that in the case of reloads, such evidence was not admitted. Thanks to Massad Ayoob for pointing that out in his book, The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry. You will find reading it well worth your while.

[benzuncle]

There's a lot of "I have heard..." out there. Well, that's what I've heard anyway. Try this one on: "Heck no, I didn't load'em. I bought'em at a gun show!" I'm wondering if a person could simply reload using the box and tray of the SD brand of their choice and the same casings and bullets. Would anyone be the wiser? To be sure, it would be a lot cheaper. A person could practice with the same rounds they would be using if the SHTF. The only worry might be Horatio on CSI, Miami.

If a person chose to reload for SD, methinks they might want to consider not mentioning it on a forum. Scoot around the topic without actually admitting it. That way, those same lawyers that we've "heard about" can't use any printed word against said person in court. My 2¢

May your powder always drop to the nearest hundredth of a grain, and your OAL seat to the nearest thousandth! ASLT

[P5 Guy]

And can anyone cite a csae that this issue was a factor in the estate getting a big settlement?

[HeroHog]

I carry what I practice with. I practice with my hand loads. I hand load for reliability and accuracy.

[Nnobby45]

Aside from hunting, I can't think of a better time to have my best accuracy possible in a self defense reload. I am new to reloading, and at this stage, yes, I always carry factory. Later on... not so black and white for me.

I can't think of a worse time to worry about TARGET accuracy than when you're defending your life.

They tell me things happen fast, and there isn't time for perfect sight picture and smooth trigger press required to take advantage of the "best accuracy".

[HankB]

MANY years ago, before the advent of high-performance ammo from Super-Vel, handloads were a way to greatly increase the effectiveness of handgun ammo. One popular load in .38 Special was a 148 grain HBWC loaded backwards, on top of a powder charge that almost certainly would give gray hair to both firearms manufacturers and the guys at SAAMI who set pressure limits.

Today, there are plenty of good commercial loads available that are easy to equal but difficult to improve on by handloading, when the topic is self-defense against two-legged predators.

I'm in Texas, where we have laws that provide a good level of protection against civil lawsuits if you're involved in a good shoot, so ammo is pretty much moot . . . UNLESS you encounter an unscrupulous DA who thinks persecuting you will win him political brownie points. In which case ANY ammo choice can potentially be twisted and used against you.

* Handloads? Extra deadly killer ammo you cooked up in your basement.

* Hollowpoints? Dum-dum ammo, banned for use in war.

* FMJ? Extra-penetrating "warfighting" ammo.

* Same ammo as local cops? You're a Walter Mitty cop wannabe.

etc. etc.

If it comes to that, a good lawyer, prepared in advance, will be able to shoot down the opposition's arguments. I personally carry factory ammo, but really, I have no problem with handloads.

[OldMarksman]

And can anyone cite a csae that this issue was a factor in the estate getting a big settlement?

P5, once more, lawyers will never commit to writing something discoverable that may prove detrimental to their later advocacy of a client who has used reloads, and no one else can credibly make such a statement. And your risk extends well beyond "the estate getting a big settlement'....

[rolyasm]

Well, all of you who think that accuracy in a "hot" situation is a waste of time, I highly disagree. I am a lot more apt to make mistakes when stressed, so to me, every few inches of accuracy are benificial. I probably won't be aiming at all, just drawing and shooting. All the practice I have done, the thousands of rounds I have shot, might make a little difference. If your arguement is that you don't need accuracy, then the same arguement could be applied to practice. And this wasn't really my intent to start this debate. But what I see your reasoning leading to is this. I should just go out, buy the cheapest ammo I can, not practice, and hope to hell that it never happens to me. Wrong. Have the best ammo, have the best training, and maybe 15% of it will be beneficial when you are wetting your pants. Maybe I should just buy a bat?

[zxcvbob]

I don't *carry* reloads, but I do keep reloads in my HD gun. They duplicate "the FBI load".

[enstorm]

I think that IF you shoot someone under questionable circumstances, or hit a bystander, with either handloads or commercial ammo, your choice of components, no matter what it is, could be manipulated to portray you as something you are not. FMJ? Going for indiscriminate penetration. HP? Going for a big gory wound channel. "Self Defense" load? Looking for trouble and going for overkill. Precision load? You're cold blooded. Etc etc...

Bottom line, I agree with the guy who says if you are legally justified to shoot to begin with -- and I would add hit the right target--your choice of ammo is going to be moot because nobody will jump on you anyhow.

As I see it, the real question about what to carry is what ammo do you trust the most from a reliability standpoint? Heck, if your Federal HydraShock round misfires at the wrong time in your meticulously maintained Glock, YOU can sue THEM.

[nate45]

First, I don't use re loads for SD ammo, but I do use hand loads, the distinction being that my hand loads are in virgin brass.

Each case is measured for OAL, each powder charge is hand weighed, I also use the Lee Factory Crimp die for uniformity of semi auto pistol rounds. The bullets are all hand seated and are all premium HP.

As far as legality goes, there is no law that says you can't use hand loads for SD. There are no citable instances of someone using hand loads for SD being criminally or civilly prosecuted.

Second, I would never mention that my ammo was hand loaded. If it came up, I would say that the popular and effective bullet that I used is sold by the same company for SD and the reason I assembled my own was that, at the time none were available at my local gun store and I mail ordered and hand assembled the components. I would also point out that my hand loads are no more, or no less deadly, and very little different from factory assembled rounds. In fact the ones I load are slightly less powerful. I also have a good quantity of each SD hand load I produce, to supply for testing, this will prove my claim and demonstrate that my ammo is just as I claim it to be and nothing more.

An SD shooting is either justifiable or it is not. If you are extremely worried about something that in the past has never happened, by all means do not use hand loads for SD. If you are like me and take simple precautions and don't feel like things that have never happened are worth worrying about then do.

[DWARREN123]

I do because I can reload good ammo for a lot less than factory. I use my reloads for all my shooting.

[Sport45]

I don't. My snubby will feed anything that will fit in the cylinder and I don't plan on shooting so much that cost savings would be a factor for reloading.

[Ben Shepherd]

I carry handloads. I built them. I know for a FACT that there is a good primer and powder charge in that case.

As far as the lawyers go:

If your case hinges on what ammo you used VS. the fact you pulled the trigger period, you're most likely already on shaky ground, or have an incopetent lawyer.

The forensic investigation(IF it really goes THAT far) could get a bit wierd if they are trying to prove exact distances involved with handloads. With commercial they just grab some more ammo with the same lot #.

[Sevens]

There is no chance that any round you made yourself is any more likely to fire as intended than high quality factory ammo. This is because you don't make your own primers.

If you could make your own primers, you could give your argument some teeth.

For me, high quality personal defense factory ammo from a reputable source is what I want, need, and what I load for home defense and carry. It always will be. It's a small hedge against a motivated prosecutor.

It's a simple risk/reward analysis. This isn't factory Remington Kleen-Bore ammo from 1948 here, this is new manufacture, high quality factory ammo. Nothing I can make and nothing you can make can be proven to be more reliable when it comes to a misfire or a dud round. Until you can make your own primers, you can't guarantee a primer will explode unless you pull the trigger on it.

Considering that whatever I have to gain by using my own loads over factory is quite small compared to the (real or perceived) risk of liability from "building my own ammo for the select purpose of killing people", it's not much of a contest. I'm using factory defense ammo.

So I shot a box or two of whatever I intend to use, and that's it. All the rest of my shooting is handloads and reloads.

I wouldn't pretend to tell anyone else what they should do, but that's what I do and I'm comfortable with it.

[Ben Shepherd]

Sevens- a couple points-

Factory primers upside down in "premium" factory ammo? Seen it. With more than one brand.

But the one the really switched me over to handloads for defensive carry? I've had exactly ONE failure in 10s of thousands of handloaded ammo: I had a 44 mag round that didn't ignite. I went home and pulled it apart to figure out why. No priming compound in the cup. The anvil and cup were both as they should be.

There is absolutely NO WAY to verify this with factory ammo. But I CAN verify this when it's me putting the primer in.

Rare? Yes. But it happened. It won't happen again.

[mkg]

I currently handload only for my rifles.

I have wondered about the leagal issue of handloads vs. commercial loads for SD.

My plan is to reproduce factory loads as closely as possible for practice and use factory for SD.

Why take a chance ?

Mike

[Ben Shepherd]

Clarification-

I AM NOT advocating that everyone(or anyone) should carry handloads for defense. My choice to do so was/is a personal one, and was not made lightly.

I'm just putting information out there so that others may make thier choice with all the information and input possible.

[OldMarksman]

As far as legality goes, there is no law that says you can't use hand loads for SD.

True!

There are no citable instances of someone using hand loads for SD being criminally or civilly prosecuted.

Not true, I'm afraid, and even if there weren't two cases mentioned in Ayoob's book, that would seem extremely unlikely. All cases of homicide are investigated, and many are prosecuted before the jury finds them justifiable or otherwise. Are you saying that none involved hand loads? I doubt that that's true. Did the subject come up in court? In the two cases Mas mentions, yes, and the way prosecutors work, you can bet that that's not unusual.

Anything that might help establish guilt in terms of mens rea (state of mind) in the minds of the jurors will come up. That's how criminal prosecution works.

That's not to say that the fact that hand loads have been used cannot be defended, but when your continued gun rights, life, fortune, and personal freedom are in the hands of twelve people, you do not want to have added to your risk.

Do not take any of this as legal advice.

[putteral]

.45 cailiber 185 gr XTP with 5.9 grs of HP38 using winchester brass is my carry load.

[w_houle]

There isn't much that you can handload that you can't buy as a factory load. I still find it a mixture of funny and annoying that my dad still referrers to Federal Hydra Shok as that "Bone Splitter" ammunition. I do not see getting convicted on use of ammunition alone. If you start doing stupid stuff like putting glass, poison, excrement/ biological contaminants et c., then you seriously are looking for problems. I have one pistol that only runs reloads... My 1851!

[Wuchak]

I'm not opposed to carrying my handloads and I have in the past. Then I bought some Double Tap and found it to be very accurate in my carry guns so that's what I carry around town. Now I just use my handloads for practice.

I still carry my 180gr .357 handloads when hiking.

[nate45]

Not true, I'm afraid, and even if there weren't two cases mentioned in Ayoob's book, that would seem extremely unlikely. All cases of homicide are investigated, and many are prosecuted before the jury finds them justifiable or otherwise. Are you saying that none involved hand loads? I doubt that that's true. Did the subject come up in court? In the two cases Mas mentions, yes, and the way prosecutors work, you can bet that that's not unusual.

If you are going to write that what I said is not true, it would be good form to post a link or two to some evidence.

You post the musings of Mas Ayoob like you are the only one thats ever read it or heard of him. I've been reading about and discussing the judicious use of force for a long, long time. You did not find some amazing wisdom that the rest of us were not aware of.