Can Someone Explain "Second Strike" To Me?

[Martowski]

Not literally; I get what it is. The ability to pull the trigger and strike a primer multiple times without manually racking the slide. However, what I don't "get" is how this is "revolutionary." I saw a Taurus ad touting this as a big benefit in one of their pistols, and have seen this term come up on some forums in the recent past. I guess what I don't see is how this is such a big deal since evey double action auto since, oh, the Walther PP design and the P-38 (both from mid-30's vintage) not to mention an unmentionable number of DA/SA autos produced over the past 70 years incorporate this function.

I suppose it's somewhat of a unique feature for a striker fired pistol as many of them have no way of cocking a hammer or striker other than slide movement, but it just seems like it's making a big deal out of something that's not that innovative. Kind of makes me think of that episode of the Simpsons where Homer questions Marge about making an attractive display of canned corn on the kitchen counter, only to see Bart and Lisa storm in and grab cans of corn because of how well they were displayed.

[vladan]

marketing gimmick ... that's about it

[Mr.Blue]

It's a way of saying a hammer is better than a striker.

[RsqVet]

2 things, 1 the second strike idea gained traction in the 80's when the us military mandated it for the 9mm pistol trials. Maybe just to exclude glock and or other striker based guns but that is so logical that it almost can't be. Reality is likely that some idiot or realist figured sooner or latter we would give our fighting men 50 year old water logged ammo you have to have the ability to bang on the primer a few times until it goes off, your finger cramps or you get shot by the other guy.

In all other instances not involving 50 year old wet ammo that can not be replaced and where each round is likely as crapy as the last the preferred immediate action drill is not to pull the trigger again, thus second strike is kind of pointless.

Tarus using it in an ad shows their ad folks know a little about design and history though again it's a pretty pointless feature for most of us.

2. In that simpsons episode it was Apu and Marge.

[Will Beararms]

It is all about perspective. For us it is no big deal. If you are fighting in a war zone and end up pillaging some sub standard ammo from the enemy, it might be of value to have second strike capability.

[Aguila Blanca]

It's not a "marketing gimmick." It's what differentiates between a single action and a true double action. And it explains why Para USA's LDA ("Light Double Action") pistols ... aren't double action pistols.

With a single action pistol, the hammer must be cocked before the trigger is pulled. The trigger doesn't do this -- the hammer must be cocked manually, or by retracting the slide (either by hand or as a result of the firing cycle). The 1911 is exemplary of this. If you pull the trigger and the round is a dud -- pulling the trigger a second time doesn't do anything.

With a true double action, or a double action only, pulling the trigger both cocks the hammer (or striker) and then releases it. With a true double, if the round is a dud you can pull the trigger a second time and get a "second strike." Now ... is this "revolutionary"? I'm with Martowski in thinking that it is NOT revolutionary. But, as he suggests, perhaps it is novel to find it in a striker fired semi-auto. I have never fired a striker-fired pistol, so I don't know enough to comment.

[Win73]

I like and want second strike capability in my pistols. The only one I own that doesn't have it is my Ruger LCP.

I don't reload. I shoot all factory ammo. Even so, not often, but once in a while I will get a cartridge that does fire on the first strike. I have found that in the great majority of those times, the cartridge has fired on the second strike. Maybe the primer wasn't fully seated in the primer pocket and the first strike seated it enough for the second strike to fire it. Maybe it was a problem with the primer itself. Maybe the anvil was not seated properly in the primer. At any rate, in my experience, most of the time the second strike fires the cartridge.

And even if the second strike doesn't fire the cartridge, how much time have you lost in pulling the trigger a second time? Its almost instantaneous. Hold you hand like you are holding a gun with your finger on the trigger. Now flick your trigger finger twice. How much time did that take? Not nearly as much time as it takes to move your off hand up and rack the slide, then pull the trigger again. To me it is well worth it to take that small fraction of a second to pull the trigger again before racking the slide.

[vladan]

It's not a "marketing gimmick." It's what differentiates between a single action and a true double action. And it explains why Para USA's LDA ("Light Double Action") pistols ... aren't double action pistols.

I never understand the need for LDA, DAK, LEM or whatever companies coming out with to have something new or "improved" on the market... it just adds to the confusion while trying to operate the weapon.

Now, second strike is DA, pure and simple. To call it "Second Strike Capability" is marketing. It simply sound better than DA and tells the story to the customer that might or might not know what DA (or double action) is....

[Sport45]

1911's have 2nd strike capability. You just thumb the hammer back.

All revolvers have 2nd strike capability as well. You just have to wait for that chamber to come back around...

[mete]

The fact is that if you have a bad primer it's likely to be bad the second time you try to fire it !! There fore if you have a bad one get it out of the gun , cycle the action and get a fresh round in.

[PSP]

I like and want second strike capability in my pistols.

Ditto.

[Martowski]

It just cracks me up when companies tout a feature that has pretty much been in use since FDR was President. But I suppose with many of today's shooters growing up only with Glocks, XDs, etc., it may be a foreign concept to them.

Personally, my little fleet of pistols includes both revolvers and autos in sa, da/sa, and striker fired ignitions. I love variety, but my favorite auto actions are the da/sa varities.

[teeroux]

The fact is that if you have a bad primer it's likely to be bad the second time you try to fire it !!

High primers almost always go on a second blow. Don't think that high primers don't happen in commercial ammo either.

Its useful on a pistol that may become so dirty it won't lock into battery. In a what you go in with is all you got for a long time type situation it can be worth while. If you get a click and see the slide didn't shut all the way you can force it closed and pull the trigger without ejecting a good and maybe later needed round. Yes glocks can and will get dirty enough to not lock into battery.

[AK103K]

What I dont understand is, if the gun fails to fire in a critical moment, why would you stand there taking the time to analyse it, and pull the trigger again to confirm? Youre just wasting precious time on something that normally only gives you a confirmation "click".

mete summed it up nicely...... "if you have a bad one get it out of the gun , cycle the action and get a fresh round in". That IS the proper response.


Over the years, shooting all kinds of ammo, Ive had more than a few dud rounds on the first strike, and very rarely did they ever fire on the second, third, eighth, whatever strike. If you want to train your brain to stop in the middle of a possibly important event to analyse why your gun isnt working, thats up to you. I think youre making a mistake, but hey, its your mistake, so carry on.

[Scimmia]

The fact is that if you have a bad primer it's likely to be bad the second time you try to fire it !!

Not true. The figure I've seen quoted is 80% fire on the second strike. That's been my experience as well when I got ahold of some ammo that must have had hard primers or something.

Touting it as revolutionary or something is just marketing hype, but that doesn't mean it's useless. It's also not exclusive to hammer fired guns as people seem to be implying in this thread. Besides Taurus, the Walther P99, FN Forty-Nine, and probably others have this ability.

[Win73]

What I dont understand is, if the gun fails to fire in a critical moment, why would you stand there taking the time to analyse it, and pull the trigger again to confirm? Youre just wasting precious time on something that normally only gives you a confirmation "click".

In the first place only an idiot would "stand there taking the time to analyse it". I am not going to analyse anything. If it doesn't fire the first time, by reflex action I am just going to flick my trigger finger a second time. If you are used to double tapping, you will probably pull the trigger again before you even realize it didn't fire the first time. And since there was no recoil, your sights should still be on target. As I said in a previous post, flick you trigger finger twice. How much time does that second flick add? Maybe a quarter of a second?

[kozak6]

It's not a big deal at all.

It was a required feature for US Army pistol trials, so if Taurus is going to add a feature that wasn't there before, they are going to toot their own horn and make a big deal about it even though it's been a fairly standard feature since the 1930's.

[AK103K]

In the first place only an idiot would "stand there taking the time to analyse it". I am not going to analyse anything. If it doesn't fire the first time, by reflex action I am just going to flick my trigger finger a second time. If you are used to double tapping, you will probably pull the trigger again before you even realize it didn't fire the first time. And since there was no recoil, your sights should still be on target. As I said in a previous post, flick you trigger finger twice. How much time does that second flick add? Maybe a quarter of a second?

Youd be amazed at the number of "idiots" in the world.

Just watch at any range when the gun doesnt go bang when someone expects it to, and thats when they are not under stress. 99.9% of the people stop and look at the gun. They dont immediately pull the trigger again, or do a TRB. They stop and look at the gun. In doing so, they program the response.

Im just curious, but how do you train for that double strike, and what do you do after it happens again? If you load up the gun with a snap cap or dummy, then you know its not going to go bang again when the gun stops running, so do you pull the trigger again, or do you do a TRB and move on? Unless you have some sort of special ammo, that allows for selective primer mistrikes and second chance fires, how do you train?

The whole point to immediately doing a TRB and not pulling the trigger again is, the likelihood the gun will still not fire on the second strike is high, and in doing so, just a waste of time.

[44 AMP]

its like "fruit on the bottom" yogurt.

[mrray13]

I'm with ak103k, if pulling the trigger doesn't make a bang, it's trb. I'm not wasting time hoping a second strike goes bang. And yes, both of my duty weapons are da/SA. I still trb if first strike doesn't produce a bang.

[jmr40]

If the ammo does not fire on the 1st strike it probably won't on the second either. I'm neutral on the issue. I don't see it as an advantage or disadvantage, but if my gun does not fire on the first strike I'm not wasting time to see if it does on the second try. I'll be putting a new round in the chamber.

[Win73]

Im just curious, but how do you train for that double strike, and what do you do after it happens again? If you load up the gun with a snap cap or dummy, then you know its not going to go bang again when the gun stops running, so do you pull the trigger again, or do you do a TRB and move on? Unless you have some sort of special ammo, that allows for selective primer mistrikes and second chance fires, how do you train?

The whole point to immediately doing a TRB and not pulling the trigger again is, the likelihood the gun will still not fire on the second strike is high, and in doing so, just a waste of time.

You don't train to do double taps? What would you do if you actually had to fire at someone? Would you stand there and analyze whether you should fire again or not? No thanks, I will just double tap him to begin with.

You keep talking about all this time I would be wasting to pull the trigger a second time. Just how much time do you think it would take? If you practice double taps, I think that by the time your brain registers that it didn't fire the first time, you could already have pulled it the second time. And obviously if it doesn't fire, then you automatically TRB.

Consider the time it takes to TRB. You have to move your off hand to the slide, rack it, reposition the gun, realign the sights, then pull the trigger. How much time does that take? Three, four, maybe even five seconds? And what is the perp going to be doing while you TRB. Will he stand there and wait for you to do it?

I use factory ammo. In the very few times that I have experienced a failure to fire on the first try with centerfire ammo, at least 80% of the time it has fired on the second try. I think that fraction of a second that it takes me to pull the trigger a second time is well worth the effort.

[AK103K]

You don't train to do double taps? What would you do if you actually had to fire at someone? Would you stand there and analyze whether you should fire again or not? No thanks, I will just double tap him to begin with.

Double tap, or double click?

I do double and triple taps all the time. If for some reason the gun stops in the middle of one, I immediately do a TRB. I do it with my Glocks, SIG's, 1911's, whatever, doesnt matter what the trigger type is (which actually keeps things a lot simpler too). I dont waste the time or effort on a proposition that has a high rate of failure.

You can pull the trigger again and again till the cows come home for all I care, I just dont see the point. I dont know where youre coming up with this 80% fire on the second strike figure either. My personal experience over the years has been more like 99% the other way, regardless of gun, ammo, or caliber too. How many "double clicks" does it take to prove to you, its time to do a TRB? If it didnt fire the first time., its not going to fire the next, get that round out of the gun and get back to it.



I carried and shot DA pistols for quite awhile. Still shoot them now too. If you shoot one on any regular basis, your brain is already wired for the second shot of the double tap not being as heavy a pull, and if it is, something is instantly different and noticeable, shifting your focus to the gun and why its not working. Your "loop" is now disrupted and yore falling behind every second you dick around not getting the gun back into action. If you dont train your brain to react in a manner thats proven to get the gun back to working in most cases, then youre training to fail.

Your second strike already has a very high likelihood of failure before you even do it, so why do it? Its not normal function, so its a malfunction, and you deal with it in that way, not by hoping the second strike "might" get the gun back in action. By the time you figure out its "clicking" again, those who have practiced doing a TRB have already done it and will have the gun back in action.

[gc70]

Another "you have to do it exactly MY way or you are totally WRONG" tactical argument; what a marvelous discussion.

Based on personal experiences, primers either nearly always fire after an initial failure (second strike advocates) or nearly never fire on subsequent tries (TRB advocates). Come on, it can't be both ways. I suspect both sides are fudging because my personal experience with discarded rounds (yes, I TRB) is that about half of them fire when I try them later.

I understand that the whole "gun doesn't go bang, look at the gun, then pull the trigger again" routine is a serious waste of time in a dire situation, but the argument over milliseconds lost in the middle of a double tap seem like an exercise in absurdity.

If you shoot one on any regular basis, your brain is already wired for the second shot of the double tap not being as heavy a pull, and if it is, something is instantly different and noticeable, shifting your focus to the gun and why its not working.

So you start your second trigger pull, your brain gets a signal that the trigger weight is too heavy, you react to abort the second trigger pull and go to TRB ... and you save any sort of meaningful time over finishing the trigger pull and then going to TRB? All I can say is that I am envious of people with such fast reactions, because some of us react so slowly that trigger pull would have been finished and it would really not make a difference.

Personally, I use TRB because I do not fully release the trigger between shots on a double tap. I train to release the trigger to reset; without a short reset, I hope I would realize that there was a problem before I ever got to full trigger release and started a heavy DA pull. If I was already in the process of pulling the trigger on the second shot, I would probably finish pulling through. DAO guns would pose a different situation, but I don't own any.

[SPUSCG]

I personally can't tap rack bang one handed....just saying, and i dont shoot 100,000 rounds a year and know that in a real encounter id probably pull again on reflex. Double strike is nice. Its not critical for me (i love sa guns) but honestly i don't see why people bash it either.