Police Lasers?

[Green Laser]

My neighbor and I had a discussion about the value of having a laser on a handgun for self defense. The neighbor said the police do not use lasers on their handguns because they are a detriment instead of an advantage in a close quarters gunfight. The tendency being to try to aim the gun with the laser while the bad guy gets off the 1st shots. Is this true?

[trooper3385]

I'm a police officer and I wouldn't think about putting a laser on a duty side arm. I could think of quite a few reason. For one, most police involved shootings happen at probably less that 20 ft. I don't believe there is much of an advantage at that range. Another reason kind of goes with the old saying, you play like you practice. If you practice with the laser, your going to get dependant on it. I don't have much experience with lasers, but I believe most of a switch to turn it on or at least a switch you turn on so when you press the pressure button it comes on. I promise you, there would be officers getting in a gun fight and pause to turn the laser on first because that's how they have practiced with the laser. Batteries can go dead as well. I don't believe they would be to practical in clearing houses or structures. It would be dictating your location to crooks that are hiding.

[m&p45acp10+1]

Watch the lasermax video on thier site. It shows an LEO that was served well by his. Some departments allow them. Some do not. They can be a helpful tool if used properly. I am a firm believer in using sights on a handgun. If i could afford a laser i would probably opt for the lasergrip, over the guiderod vesrion.

[Shin71]

I like lasers but not on pistols. I have been trained (so I am now indoctrinated) into believing that in a real gunfight a laser will slow you down as you wont pull the trigger until you "see" the dot where you want it and in a CQC situation you should be able to instinctively point and shoot (no sights) or be at a range where sights should be used; for most shooters this is going to be over 15 meters but for active shooters who practice with instinctive shooting this can be built up to 25 meters (but is uncommon).

As a reserve LEO you cannot use a laser on a pistol (at my agency) to do so in a non-deadly force situation will get you fired however on our Tasers they are a blessing. Tasers are considered Less-Lethal so pull and point is not an issue 90% of the time, the other 10% is when no use of force is acceptable but some people just have to pull theirs out... Painting a laser on someone who is getting ready to be tased anyway can actually de-escalate the situation (especially if they have taken the 5 second ride before). In this case a laser is great but involves less-lethal force and limited range with a "weapon" that has poor at best sites.

As a military member the AN/PAQ-4C is an awesome tool, especially if you are expecting trouble. You have to site it in of course but you can whack an entire ambush element before they even know you are there (Owning the night is fun). This is another situation where a laser is great but this is a free fire situation, is used in groups with NVG's.

Best bet, my opinion only, is to get a set of night sights.

[357 Python]

While a laser may have some advantages in certain situations I believe that at night it would be better to have a flashlight mounted as opposed to a laser. You must be able to identify the threat. How can you identify it if you can't see it? Also in the normal distances of home defense the flashlight should give you a decent target zone that you are able to see through your sights. Also a good strong flashlight beam in the eyes of a subject may be all you need to keep from having to shoot. If the assailant can't see how is he going to harm you? Be careful though. Improperly used flashlights have been know to draw fire from the subject.

[TylerD45ACP]

I agree especially with Shin71, I think laser arent that useful. I think they are more of a detriment than help as reasons stated above. I like my Novaks, thank you .

[4runnerman]

One more thing.Laser leads right back to you.Easy to find you,follow the light and shoot at it..No lasers for me.

[JollyRoger]

Maybe ten years ago I was helping out on a street survival school for area PD's and met an officer who had a laser installed on his Glock. At the time this was a rare custom job with the laser unit mounted on the front trigger guard, activated by a button on the grip (officers in his dept. purchased their own guns, restricted only by caliber). He claimed he had used it effectively on a couple of domestics with armed parties, intimidating them with the laser dot and convincing them to drop their weapons.

Guys on our SWAT team later got a couple Lasermax rigs for two SIG 226's to be used as "shield guns". The idea was when carrying the lighter raid shields (one-handed), an operator could have a weapon he could maneuver around the shield and aim with the laser. I don't know if they were ever actually used that way. I've used a shield on occasion and think this might be a pretty tough setup, though I've never tried it.

As I see it, there are several reasons law enforcement agencies might avoid lasers for general use:

1) added expense - figure an extra couple hundred per weapon, plus maintenance

2) confusion - LEO's rarely work alone on planned events such as warrants or sweeps. If you have three or four red dots cruising around a guy's chest, how do you tell which one's yours, or if yours is somewhere else?

3) liability - bad guys already claim nerve damage because the cuffs were too tight, etc. If you had general use of lasers, they'd all claim eye damage.

4) Other options such as red dot sights for long weapons, night sights and weapon-mounted flashlights work better with conventional techniques, especially after the first shot is fired, as reacquiring the laser can sometimes take longer than reacquiring conventional sights.

[demigod]

2) confusion - LEO's rarely work alone on planned events such as warrants or sweeps. If you have three or four red dots cruising around a guy's chest, how do you tell which one's yours, or if yours is somewhere else?

This is the reason smart agencies don't allow lasers for patrol. How do you end up figuring out which laser is yours? You wiggle it of course. Now you have four cops wiggling their lasers on some suspect.

[isanchez2008]

Batteries can go dead as well. I don't believe they would be to practical in clearing houses or structures.

Aren't Eotech holographic sights and Aimpoint Red dot sights battery powered? Seem to do the job just fine. As for lasers I'm not sure if the pros outweigh the cons.

[MTT TL]

The best police officer I know mounts a CT on his personal weapon and his duty weapon. He is not a patrol officer anymore but the leader of the city SWAT team. He has nearly 20 years experience on the job.

[Nnobby45]

I promise you, there would be officers getting in a gun fight and pause to turn the laser on first because that's how they have practiced with the laser. Batteries can go dead as well. I don't believe they would be to practical in clearing houses or structures. It would be dictating your location to crooks that are hiding.

No cops are going to be wasting time trying to turn their laser on.

The activation switch (on/off)does not turn on the laser. It simply enables the pressure switches on the grip to activate the laser when pressure is applied. The laser is still OFF when the grip isn't activating it.

The laser is highly effective in light so dim the regular sights can't be seen, but when it isn't dark enough to see tritium sights. It works great in- doors, in stairwells, and parking garages 24/7. They're worthless in direct sunlight, but may be useful on cloudy days.

My J-frames, with their little hard to see sights, also are equipped with CT Lasergrips.

When practicing, I've had no trouble getting on target with either the regular sights, when they're visible, or the laser when they aren't. No problems like "Jeez, which one do I use?".

Just leave the laser switch in the ON position and things will take care of themselves--albeit with a little practice.


I'm talking about the CT Lasergrip. Not something like the Streamlite that attaches to the rail, and is a different system that includes light and laser combos and different switch arrangement. These too are easy to operate, but require a little more training.


The laser does not give your position away, since it needn't be activated until you're in the process of bringing the gun to bear on the target. At the last split second.

On the other hand, activating the dot, a little early by choice, and placing in Bubba's eye might convey the message that he's picked the wrong victim and preclude the need for further hostilities. Just a thought--not an established tactic.

NOTE: The concept isn't perfect: There have been incidents, involving SWAT, where several laser equipped officers entered a building and confronted a suspect whose torso was covered with so many dots the officers didn't know which one was theirs. I suspect they've worked that out by now.

Not trying to be critical of others opinions about laser sights, but it's really interesting the concepts offered by those who've never used them.

[war_elephant]

Eotecs do use batteries, and they can and do go bad but that is why you have iron sights, it is called co witness, so you can fall back on the irons rather than go to different weapon.
Another agency that I have helped train used to just have eotecs on their M-4s but when I removed the batteries and told him to take a 75 yd shot he couldnt, they put irons back on the M-4s the next day. The M-4s were flat tops with gas block, no sight tower on front. Always have a manual back up sight for any weapon is my opinion. Maybe a duh but you would be surprised how many dont, in my 28 year LEO experience anyway
Oh and we dont allow lasers on duty weapons for the reasons stated in other posts.

[LordTio3]

Batteries can go dead as well. I don't believe they would be to practical in clearing houses or structures. It would be dictating your location to crooks that are hiding.

Wow. I just have to state conclusively (and please trust me on this) that to anyone who HAS had actual experience with laser sights; it is IMMEDIATELY apparent who in this thread has NOT had that experience, and is operating completely from hearsay and what they've seen in movies.

Contrary to what Hollywood has told you, laser sights do not produce a rod of visible light that can be traced back to your position. They produce a dot of light where the beam is broken.
Hollywood:

Actual:


Now, Hollywood uses a lot of tricks to make that beam visible and cool-looking; like adding air contaminants like smoke or dust particles that can impact the beam and make it visible, but most of it is post production highlighting.

Crimson Trace laser grips are spec-ed for 4 hours of constant on-time before the batteries die. When was the last time it took ANYONE Half that long to "clear a house"?

And you guys make it sound like in order to install a laser, you have to completely knock off your iron sights and never use them again. You only get dependant when you abuse a tool. If you know that the laser is just a specific tool with a specific function, then you know that there is no reason to even bring this up. Use whichever sights the situation dictates are most suitable and be trained in the use of both of them. Rocket science it ain't.

If a LEO was so enclined, I'd tell him that he is at no tactical disadvantage for installing a lasergrip or sights on his weapon; and in fact he would probably be better suited for taking a shot in low lighting, one in which he could not look down his sight-picture or was wounded, or a critical situation where one shot could decide who lived or died.

And to whomever thinks that confusion over who's sight-dot is who's; allow me to ask you a question.
At this point...


Who the hell cares? If HALF of them pulled the trigger, would not the problem be solved? It is a complete non-issue, just like every other "con" discussed here so far.

~LT

[MTT TL]

Wow. I just have to state conclusively (and please trust me on this) that to anyone who HAS had actual experience with laser sights; it is IMMEDIATELY apparent who in this thread has NOT had that experience, and is operating completely from hearsay and what they've seen in movies.

Contrary to what Hollywood has told you, laser sights do not produce a rod of visible light that can be traced back to your position. They produce a dot of light where the beam is broken.

I am guessing you have never seen a green laser before. Probably never been on a raid where flash bangs and smoke are in use either.

Crimson Trace laser grips are spec-ed for 4 hours of constant on-time before the batteries die. When was the last time it took ANYONE Half that long to "clear a house"?

The issue is the laser being carried for several months. Then suddenly it is needed for a few minutes, then it dies. Having carried a CT laser on my M9 I can tell you the thing used to go off all the time by bumping into stuff if I did not deactivate it.

NOTE: The concept isn't perfect: There have been incidents, involving SWAT, where several laser equipped officers entered a building and confronted a suspect whose torso was covered with so many dots the officers didn't know which one was theirs. I suspect they've worked that out by now.

The military uses patterned reticules on their lasers. There are five different patterns (square, triangle, etc) that are easily recognizable.

Lasers can be useful under certain circumstances. They also have some serious shortcomings and issues. You have to figure out what works for you.

[Skans]

mess-up.....Deleted.

[Skans]

I like lasers but not on pistols. I have been trained (so I am now indoctrinated) into believing that in a real gunfight a laser will slow you down as you wont pull the trigger until you "see" the dot where you want it

I completely agree with this. Reaction time is critical. I have a hard enough time just getting my reaction time down below 3 seconds from concealed carry to firing. Lots of bad stuff can happen to me while I'm fiddling around trying to get my gun out in 3 seconds - farting around with a laser is out of the question!!!


I think the best thing most of us can do is practice getting your gun out from CC to the point of actually firing while someone is holding a gun (unloaded, checked and verifited of course) at close range. That means carrying like you normally do - not shirt up above an external holster from a standing position with your hand 2 inches above your holstered gun ready to draw.

I honestly don't see how you can expect to be ready to use your gun in a carry situation unless you've practiced getting it out from concealment while under some kind of simulated attack.

[MTT TL]

Deleted

[LordTio3]

I am guessing you have never seen a green laser before. Probably never been on a raid where flash bangs and smoke are in use either.

Easily solved. If you think you're at a disadvantage using a laser before you're making an incendiary-device-mediated-tactical-entry because of the air contamination and the location trace it could offer; turn it off.

I like lasers but not on pistols. I have been trained (so I am now indoctrinated) into believing that in a real gunfight a laser will slow you down as you wont pull the trigger until you "see" the dot where you want it

I have no doubts that this has become the case for the overwhelming majority of people who've adopted these sights. A laser sight is a VERY easy tool to use as a kickstand or a replacement for proper training and marksmanship. But this can be easily overcome with proper training and the right frame of mind. Believe me, when I pull my weapon at any significant distance, I'm not even going to be thinking about the laser sight, let alone looking for the reticle. I'm focusing on my target and my frontsight. Now if there is a pause/standoff/hostage situation/etc...; and I have time to take a careful shot that I have my sight zeroed for, then I'm clicking that badboy on hoping that the solution will diffuse itself, but preparing to stop it if need be.

~LT

[Skans]

MTT - I messed up my first post on this - it was acutally a quote from someone else (supposed to be in quotes, and I didn't realize that was even posted) - thanks for pointing this out. I'm going to delete that first post, but just wanted to clarify this. However, I did agree with the guy I quoted.

The bottom line is that there is too much (for me anyway) going on for me to concentrate on using the laser too. Getting the gun out of concealment ain't all that easy for me, as I've learned - I don't need any more do-dads to slow me down further.

[MLeake]

Problem: Possible to get overly dependent on something that might have an inopportune battery failure.
Mitigation: Practice with both laser and iron sights, and become proficient with either.
Additional mitigation: Set up a preventive maintenance schedule, and include adding new batteries as part of that schedule.

Problem: Looking for the dot could affect speed on trigger.
Flipside: Focus on front sight makes it harder to scan area; easier to watch BG, and possibly additional BG's, if focus is NOT on front sight.

Problem: Laser doesn't help identify targets.
However,
Problem: Night sights don't help identify targets; neither do iron sights.

Veer problem: EOTech batteries could die.
Mitigation: Iron sights can be seen through EOTech. My AR has flip-up sights, that are zeroed. If the batteries die, I can flip them up in a second or two, and I'm none the worse for wear. In fact, I usually leave the front sight up, so I'd really only have to flip the rear into place.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

I have a laser on my PM9. Works well. I don't have lasers on my other handguns, in part because they don't have rails, and in part because I trained for so many years with iron sights.

Note: the laser on my PM9 is a CTC LaserGuard. I like this much better than lasergrips, because it doesn't have any horizontal parallax issues. I have it sighted about 1/2" low at 10 yards, and get reliable hits with it on 25yd targets, so the argument about distance is kind of silly - except in very bright light conditions, or if my target is wearing bright red.

Note2: lasers are awesome tools for dry-fire practice, and for training away flinches.

So what is my overall point?

Train with whatever you are using. Know your equipment and its limitations. Train for operation in degraded modes. Don't knock what the other guy is using if you haven't tried it (with exceptions - some things would obviously be stupid; using lasers isn't one of them.)

Cheers,

M

[LordTio3]

MLeake:
Yup. I think the head on that nail is flush with the board now. Good job.

~LT

[jimbob86]

The tendency being to try to aim the gun with the laser while the bad guy gets off the 1st shots. Is this true?

IIRC, that is what Jeff Cooper found when he examined the problem back in the 90's ..... people wasted time looking for the red dot on the target, and moving the dot to where they wanted it, instead of presenting the pistol with the front sight on the target (flash sight picture) and squeezing the trigger.

[MLeake]

With regard to Cooper's study:

Since it was done in the 90's sometime, the question is begged - how much experience and training did the shooters in Cooper's study actually have with lasers?

If these people were relatively unfamiliar, then reductions in performance should have been expected, and may be meaningless for purposes of this discussion.

A link to the study would be helpful, if you have one.

As far as point shooting goes, a couple of observations:

1) I winnow out guns from my collection, or select guns from my collection for CCW, based on several factors:
a) will it go bang when I pull the trigger?
b) can I hit my target with it?
c) do I have to work hard to hit my target with it?

c) basically addresses a pair of factors:
c)i. pointability (for me, I don't care how it points for somebody else)
c)ii. trigger (again, for me personally)

and

2) a laser can be a HUGE aid for point shooting, since during dry-fire practice one can (and I do) draw and point, then squeeze to see where the dot is relative to where one thought it would be.

I could try to do the same thing (and do with my non-laser handguns) by moving my eye to the sights after pointing. However, the problem with that is I can't be entirely sure that I haven't moved the gun while bringing my eye to bear. It works, but it works better with the laser.

This goes back to my earlier post: If you train with your weapon, you can reap lots of advantages. If you don't train with it adequately or intelligently, you can sow lots of disasters.

Cheers,

M

[jimbob86]

I read it somewhere in his comentaries, IIRC ... am unable to find it with a quick search.

As I remember it, he did have a use for a laser pistol sight- his dog enjoyed chasing the dot around the living room floor...