tumbeling loaded ammo?

Ammo Junky · April 9, 2006, 12:43 PM

I just started using my progressive for rifle ammo. I am wondering about tumbeling the loaded rnds to clean off lube. I know a lot of people tumble handgun ammo. I don't supose it is that much different. I am going to do an experemint with ball and stick powdwes and the chrono and I'll let you guys know if the 2hr tumbel had any effect. If I don't reply in the next couple of wk, you will know I had a kboom and am probably dead

armedandsafe · April 9, 2006, 02:11 PM

It is not a good idea to tumble loaded ammo, as that can break down the powder granules. Smaller granules, faster burn. Faster powder, higher pressure. Best case is that the ammo would then be inconsistent and, thus, inaccurate.

Just wipe them with a clean rag. If that is not sufficient to clean off the lube, you are using too much lube.

Pops

ConRich · April 9, 2006, 07:54 PM

I have to agree with what armedandsafe said, but if your determined to do it please post the results of your test.

Rich

hoghunting · April 9, 2006, 10:29 PM

I don't know what bullets you are using, but there is a slight chance of a bullet tip banging a primer. Granted it is a very small chance, but I have seen stranger things happen.

Ammo Junky · April 10, 2006, 06:21 AM

I am doing the test with 3030, but I don't think that will mater to the powder. The loads are not compressed. I am using H335 and H4895. I am using rn bullets. I will pull a couple of bullets and visualy inspect the powder and primers for changes. I will probably not get to fire the rnds untill this sat.

If the powder has visual changes I will stop there. If all looks well I will do a remote fireing from inside a building. I will chrono the reference loads and tumbeled loads so I have something to compare av and sd to. I'll let you guys know the results. Brian Enos tumbels all his handgun ammo and that is A LOT of ammo. He says that all factories tumbel their loaded rnds so I am not expecting any trouble. When all is said and done I am not sure I won't just wipe the cases anyway, but it will be interesting to know if tumbeling is an option.

P-990 · April 10, 2006, 08:11 AM

I've tumbled loaded .223 rounds without issue in the past. The worst that happened was the tips of the hollow-points collected media and I couldn't get it out. Didn't affect accuracy one iota and I shot some pretty good scores with that ammo!

Edited: The trick seems to do be doing this for only 15-20 minutes at a whack. This is just enough to get the lube off of the cases, IME.

Sport45 · April 10, 2006, 08:16 AM

If you're talking about tumbling for less than an hour I wouldn't worry about it. Think about how long that powder set it a canister in the trailer of an OTR (over-the-road) truck being hauled from the manufacturer, to the wholesaler, and finaly to your store. If vibration was a problem they couldn't ship the stuff.

Al Norris · April 10, 2006, 10:53 AM

Just to get out of wiping the cases off?

I'm not at all sure I understand the thought process here. You've went through the steps to handload your ammo but can't take the extra 2 to 5 second step of wiping your cases before you tray them?

Ah well. To each their own, I suppose...

Rivers · April 10, 2006, 11:40 AM

There's NO danger of a bullet tip's causing a primer to "go off." (Using a vibratory tumbler) There's no problem with breaking down the powder. The tumbling process, in order to remove case lube, requires only 15 minutes or so.

Commercial loaders/reloaders tumble loaded rounds every day, by the hundreds of thousands. Do a search for "tumbling loaded rounds," or something to that effect. This has been well-covered in numerous threads.

Ammo Junky · April 10, 2006, 05:36 PM

I talk to a tec at Hogden today, He said "a lot of people do it". He recomended not overdoing it. He could not tell me how much was too much, but just said, keep the time to a minimum. He said the primer would not be affected. I ran my tumbler for 2hr becaus that was way way more than normal. If 2hr cause no change, the normal 30 min should cause no change either. I will post later what I found after the bullet pulling.
As I said before I probably won't do it normaly, it's just an interesting project. Even when I load on the singel stage press and tumbel after sizeing, I still wipe the cases before tumbeling. David Tub says over tumbeling can make the cases too slick and affect accuracy. It is hard for me to belive that wipeing the lube off with a rag gets it a 100% off and if over tumbeling leaves cases too slick, seems to me trace amounts of lube would be at least as bad or worse. This is the some of the first rifle ammo (30-06) I have completly loaded on a progressive, including the sizeing. I will shoot some of the progressive loaded / wiped not tumbeld ammo and see how the groups compare to the single stage / tumbeled case ammo). To be fair charges are weighed with the single stage ammo and obiviously thrown with the progressive ammo.

Ammo Junky · April 10, 2006, 08:29 PM

Pulled bullets and inspected powders. Absolutly no visible change in H335 or H4895 after two hr tumbeling. I will shoot / chrono the loads and control loads soon. I don't expect any change, which if is the case says a lot about the quality of the powders.

maxwayne · April 10, 2006, 09:32 PM

I tumble .223 for about 10-15 minutes after loading and have not had any problems to date.

Ruger4570 · April 12, 2006, 11:55 AM

Just personal opinion, but I prefer to wipe my loaded rounds with a rag and some alcohol. It also gives me a chance to take a good look at the finished rounds for any defects etc. I have also gone to Hornady one shot to lube cases. No more greasy lube for me.

**Unclenick** · April 12, 2006, 01:12 PM

This is one reason I don't load rifle in a progressive. A big factor in accuracy is consistent bullet pull, which has a strong relationship to seating pressure (see the RSI Load Force instrument). I usually clean lube off after resizing, but before proceeding with the other operations. This removes inside neck lube at the same time, if I've had to use a die I can't get a carbide expander ball for. The best approach for me is to dissolve the stuff off by soaking in low odor paint thinner. I then let the cases sit out for a couple of days to dry, then tumble them in clean, plain corncob. Occasionally the extra handling causes a neck indentation, but if you work carefully, that isn't often. The main nuissance is having to check for media stuck in flashholes before priming.

Regarding case slickness, check Varmint Al's work on bolt face thrust due to chamber smoothness. It turns out that even greasing a case and putting it in a polished chamber doesn't add a lot to boltface thrust or appreciably affect the ability of the brass to stick to the chamber walls under pressure. Out of about 4500 lbs of boltface thrust, that greased case increases that thrust maybe a couple hundred pounds. He had to try a static coefficient of friction of 0.01 (about twice as lubricative as molybdenum disulfide) to get the thrust up 50%. Al shows case head separation occurring about 25% sooner in a chamber that is rough.

So, with the bolt thrust demon shown to be largely a product of speculative imagination, I'm not sure what David Tubb is seeing? I don't disbelieve him. I just don't know what the mechanism is? Interesting.

Nick

Rivers · April 12, 2006, 02:07 PM

I don't tumble ammo that I've loaded for my bolt rifles, as I do load them on the old Rockchucker; however, I do tumble .223 rounds that I'm loading in bulk for plinking with my AR.

kingudaroad · April 12, 2006, 02:28 PM

I spend so much effort on my rifle rounds making sure the neck is sized just right. And that the case mouth is camfered and smooth and the neck tension is tight and even. I would be afraid of those rounds banging together in the tumbler and indenting the brass at the neck or case mouth.

The final wipedown of handloaded, accurate rifle rounds is the culmination of all my effort in making a perfect round. It's my favorite step of the handloading process.

Smokey Joe · April 12, 2006, 11:52 PM

Ammojunkie--Armedandsafe, and ConRich, are trying to perpetuate an Urban Myth, here. The "Don't Tumble Loaded Ammo It Breaks Down The Powder Granules" foolishness has been tested again and again. It's nice that you're going through it one more time. Apologize for calling it foolishness, but really, it's an idea whose time has come and gone.

One poster tumbled half a batch of reloads for quite a while--days, IIRC. Then he pulled a few bullets from the tumbled ammo--powder looked the same as it had when it went in. Then he took the whole batch out to the range and shot it and chrono'ed it. Surprise! No difference in the tumbled and non-tumbled loads. So there went that Urban Myth, down the drain. I wish it would stay there!!!

Armed, and Con--do a search on this forum and THR--This is Old News. Powder granules are tougher than that.

The other stuff referred to here seems sound enough, though personally I can't see putting a case with even traces of lube on it, into a rifle chamber.

I used to wipe cases off with a rag and rubbing alcohol. I use RCBS Case Lube 2, which is water soluble, and I figured the alcohol would be an even better solvent, and evaporate quicker. Worked fine, but on a large batch of ammo all that hand-work gets kind of old, kind of quick. Except, I do like Kingudaroad's comment about liking to handle each case.

I used to believe, too, that the case lube would gum up your tumbling medium and make the granules all stick together. A poster once warned of that occurring. No evidence of that so far for me. Been using the same batch of corncob medium for a couple of years now.

So, make up the ammo on the progressive! Tumble-clean away! Then get ye out and shoot the stuff! Urban myths, pfui!

**44 AMP** · April 13, 2006, 03:02 AM

It may be now proven that vibratory "tumblers" don't break down the powder, and don't risk accidental discharge. All well and good. Personally I don't tumble loaded ammo, but then I don't fully utilize a progressive press. Back when I did, I found out the lack of precise "feel" when seating bullets occasionally created a problem. The force of sizing a case meant that when something went wrong seating (tipped bullet, etc) that I would not feel the extra resistance until too late, and then I lost a case, and usually a bullet. So, being cheap (I hate losing components to errors), I changed my methods. I now size all my brass batchwise, tumble, prime and then only use the progressive to assemble the ammo. So my loaded ammo is never greasy.

Ammo Junky · April 15, 2006, 07:19 PM

All rnds down range, rifle still in one peice. The tumbeled stick powder had a slightly higher av the tumbeled ball powder had a slighly lower av, none was beyond the normal es for this gun. As posted eariler the vibration that goes on during thousands of miles of transport prpbably far outweighs what could be done with a normal tumbler. I may start tumbeling plinking rifle ammo that I load on the progressive ie. 30-30 and .223, but I will probably wipe it frist to keep the works from guming up. I have had this happen with one shot. I now use a lube pad, maybe I will try tumbeling non wiped cases just to see.

Smokey Joe · April 15, 2006, 08:27 PM

for performing the experiment. We can point to yr work the NEXT time this urban myth resurfaces--which I'm unfortunately confident that it will.

Seems that provably untrue ideas are among the hardest to kill!

Well, there are still people who refuse to accept the "theory" that the earth isn't flat. Guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Good shooting to all, with ammo prepared whichever way you favor it.

Ken O · April 15, 2006, 08:39 PM

If tumbling loaded rounds was bad, the ammo would be worthless. As someone said, it gets trucked around when shipped. Also those that were in the service knows how beat around the ammo gets riding around in trucks, tanks, etc, and in my day, Jeeps, makes that tumbler a pillow by comparison. I read somewhere, but cant verify, that commercial ammo is tumbled to polish after its loaded.
I don't tumble my loaded ammo, but if I wanted to, I wouldn't hesitate.

April 9, 2006, 12:43 PM	#1
Ammo Junky Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: IL Posts: 537	tumbeling loaded ammo? I just started using my progressive for rifle ammo. I am wondering about tumbeling the loaded rnds to clean off lube. I know a lot of people tumble handgun ammo. I don't supose it is that much different. I am going to do an experemint with ball and stick powdwes and the chrono and I'll let you guys know if the 2hr tumbel had any effect. If I don't reply in the next couple of wk, you will know I had a kboom and am probably dead

April 9, 2006, 02:11 PM	#2
armedandsafe Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: Moses Lake WA Posts: 1,001	It is not a good idea to tumble loaded ammo, as that can break down the powder granules. Smaller granules, faster burn. Faster powder, higher pressure. Best case is that the ammo would then be inconsistent and, thus, inaccurate. Just wipe them with a clean rag. If that is not sufficient to clean off the lube, you are using too much lube. Pops __________________ Armed and Safe: Not just a theory If it time to bury them, it is time to dig them up. Remember, "Behind every blade of grass."

April 10, 2006, 08:11 AM	#6
P-990 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2002 Location: Only1/2WayThere Posts: 1,316	I've tumbled loaded .223 rounds without issue in the past. The worst that happened was the tips of the hollow-points collected media and I couldn't get it out. Didn't affect accuracy one iota and I shot some pretty good scores with that ammo! Edited: The trick seems to do be doing this for only 15-20 minutes at a whack. This is just enough to get the lube off of the cases, IME. __________________ NRA Master, Highpower Rifle, Across-the-Course NRA Expert, Highpower Rifle, Mid-Range Prone

April 10, 2006, 08:16 AM	#7
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	If you're talking about tumbling for less than an hour I wouldn't worry about it. Think about how long that powder set it a canister in the trailer of an OTR (over-the-road) truck being hauled from the manufacturer, to the wholesaler, and finaly to your store. If vibration was a problem they couldn't ship the stuff. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

April 12, 2006, 01:12 PM	#14
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	This is one reason I don't load rifle in a progressive. A big factor in accuracy is consistent bullet pull, which has a strong relationship to seating pressure (see the RSI Load Force instrument). I usually clean lube off after resizing, but before proceeding with the other operations. This removes inside neck lube at the same time, if I've had to use a die I can't get a carbide expander ball for. The best approach for me is to dissolve the stuff off by soaking in low odor paint thinner. I then let the cases sit out for a couple of days to dry, then tumble them in clean, plain corncob. Occasionally the extra handling causes a neck indentation, but if you work carefully, that isn't often. The main nuissance is having to check for media stuck in flashholes before priming. Regarding case slickness, check Varmint Al's work on bolt face thrust due to chamber smoothness. It turns out that even greasing a case and putting it in a polished chamber doesn't add a lot to boltface thrust or appreciably affect the ability of the brass to stick to the chamber walls under pressure. Out of about 4500 lbs of boltface thrust, that greased case increases that thrust maybe a couple hundred pounds. He had to try a static coefficient of friction of 0.01 (about twice as lubricative as molybdenum disulfide) to get the thrust up 50%. Al shows case head separation occurring about 25% sooner in a chamber that is rough. So, with the bolt thrust demon shown to be largely a product of speculative imagination, I'm not sure what David Tubb is seeing? I don't disbelieve him. I just don't know what the mechanism is? Interesting. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 9, 2006, 07:54 PM	#3
ConRich Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 299	I have to agree with what armedandsafe said, but if your determined to do it please post the results of your test. Rich

April 9, 2006, 10:29 PM	#4
hoghunting Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2006 Posts: 1,559	I don't know what bullets you are using, but there is a slight chance of a bullet tip banging a primer. Granted it is a very small chance, but I have seen stranger things happen.

April 10, 2006, 06:21 AM	#5
Ammo Junky Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: IL Posts: 537	I am doing the test with 3030, but I don't think that will mater to the powder. The loads are not compressed. I am using H335 and H4895. I am using rn bullets. I will pull a couple of bullets and visualy inspect the powder and primers for changes. I will probably not get to fire the rnds untill this sat. If the powder has visual changes I will stop there. If all looks well I will do a remote fireing from inside a building. I will chrono the reference loads and tumbeled loads so I have something to compare av and sd to. I'll let you guys know the results. Brian Enos tumbels all his handgun ammo and that is A LOT of ammo. He says that all factories tumbel their loaded rnds so I am not expecting any trouble. When all is said and done I am not sure I won't just wipe the cases anyway, but it will be interesting to know if tumbeling is an option.

April 10, 2006, 10:53 AM	#8
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Just to get out of wiping the cases off? I'm not at all sure I understand the thought process here. You've went through the steps to handload your ammo but can't take the extra 2 to 5 second step of wiping your cases before you tray them? Ah well. To each their own, I suppose...

April 10, 2006, 11:40 AM	#9
Rivers Junior member Join Date: November 5, 2005 Posts: 670	There's NO danger of a bullet tip's causing a primer to "go off." (Using a vibratory tumbler) There's no problem with breaking down the powder. The tumbling process, in order to remove case lube, requires only 15 minutes or so. Commercial loaders/reloaders tumble loaded rounds every day, by the hundreds of thousands. Do a search for "tumbling loaded rounds," or something to that effect. This has been well-covered in numerous threads.

April 10, 2006, 05:36 PM	#10
Ammo Junky Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: IL Posts: 537	I talk to a tec at Hogden today, He said "a lot of people do it". He recomended not overdoing it. He could not tell me how much was too much, but just said, keep the time to a minimum. He said the primer would not be affected. I ran my tumbler for 2hr becaus that was way way more than normal. If 2hr cause no change, the normal 30 min should cause no change either. I will post later what I found after the bullet pulling. As I said before I probably won't do it normaly, it's just an interesting project. Even when I load on the singel stage press and tumbel after sizeing, I still wipe the cases before tumbeling. David Tub says over tumbeling can make the cases too slick and affect accuracy. It is hard for me to belive that wipeing the lube off with a rag gets it a 100% off and if over tumbeling leaves cases too slick, seems to me trace amounts of lube would be at least as bad or worse. This is the some of the first rifle ammo (30-06) I have completly loaded on a progressive, including the sizeing. I will shoot some of the progressive loaded / wiped not tumbeld ammo and see how the groups compare to the single stage / tumbeled case ammo). To be fair charges are weighed with the single stage ammo and obiviously thrown with the progressive ammo.

April 10, 2006, 08:29 PM	#11
Ammo Junky Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: IL Posts: 537	Pulled bullets and inspected powders. Absolutly no visible change in H335 or H4895 after two hr tumbeling. I will shoot / chrono the loads and control loads soon. I don't expect any change, which if is the case says a lot about the quality of the powders.

April 10, 2006, 09:32 PM	#12
maxwayne Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2001 Posts: 402	I tumble .223 for about 10-15 minutes after loading and have not had any problems to date.

April 12, 2006, 11:55 AM	#13
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	Just personal opinion, but I prefer to wipe my loaded rounds with a rag and some alcohol. It also gives me a chance to take a good look at the finished rounds for any defects etc. I have also gone to Hornady one shot to lube cases. No more greasy lube for me.

April 12, 2006, 02:07 PM	#15
Rivers Junior member Join Date: November 5, 2005 Posts: 670	I don't tumble ammo that I've loaded for my bolt rifles, as I do load them on the old Rockchucker; however, I do tumble .223 rounds that I'm loading in bulk for plinking with my AR.

April 12, 2006, 02:28 PM	#16
kingudaroad Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Location: austin Posts: 735	I spend so much effort on my rifle rounds making sure the neck is sized just right. And that the case mouth is camfered and smooth and the neck tension is tight and even. I would be afraid of those rounds banging together in the tumbler and indenting the brass at the neck or case mouth. The final wipedown of handloaded, accurate rifle rounds is the culmination of all my effort in making a perfect round. It's my favorite step of the handloading process.

April 12, 2006, 11:52 PM	#17
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	We've been there, done that! Ammojunkie--Armedandsafe, and ConRich, are trying to perpetuate an Urban Myth, here. The "Don't Tumble Loaded Ammo It Breaks Down The Powder Granules" foolishness has been tested again and again. It's nice that you're going through it one more time. Apologize for calling it foolishness, but really, it's an idea whose time has come and gone. One poster tumbled half a batch of reloads for quite a while--days, IIRC. Then he pulled a few bullets from the tumbled ammo--powder looked the same as it had when it went in. Then he took the whole batch out to the range and shot it and chrono'ed it. Surprise! No difference in the tumbled and non-tumbled loads. So there went that Urban Myth, down the drain. I wish it would stay there!!! Armed, and Con--do a search on this forum and THR--This is Old News. Powder granules are tougher than that. The other stuff referred to here seems sound enough, though personally I can't see putting a case with even traces of lube on it, into a rifle chamber. I used to wipe cases off with a rag and rubbing alcohol. I use RCBS Case Lube 2, which is water soluble, and I figured the alcohol would be an even better solvent, and evaporate quicker. Worked fine, but on a large batch of ammo all that hand-work gets kind of old, kind of quick. Except, I do like Kingudaroad's comment about liking to handle each case. I used to believe, too, that the case lube would gum up your tumbling medium and make the granules all stick together. A poster once warned of that occurring. No evidence of that so far for me. Been using the same batch of corncob medium for a couple of years now. So, make up the ammo on the progressive! Tumble-clean away! Then get ye out and shoot the stuff! Urban myths, pfui! __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe

April 13, 2006, 03:02 AM	#18
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	urban myth It may be now proven that vibratory "tumblers" don't break down the powder, and don't risk accidental discharge. All well and good. Personally I don't tumble loaded ammo, but then I don't fully utilize a progressive press. Back when I did, I found out the lack of precise "feel" when seating bullets occasionally created a problem. The force of sizing a case meant that when something went wrong seating (tipped bullet, etc) that I would not feel the extra resistance until too late, and then I lost a case, and usually a bullet. So, being cheap (I hate losing components to errors), I changed my methods. I now size all my brass batchwise, tumble, prime and then only use the progressive to assemble the ammo. So my loaded ammo is never greasy.

April 15, 2006, 07:19 PM	#19
Ammo Junky Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: IL Posts: 537	All rnds down range, rifle still in one peice. The tumbeled stick powder had a slightly higher av the tumbeled ball powder had a slighly lower av, none was beyond the normal es for this gun. As posted eariler the vibration that goes on during thousands of miles of transport prpbably far outweighs what could be done with a normal tumbler. I may start tumbeling plinking rifle ammo that I load on the progressive ie. 30-30 and .223, but I will probably wipe it frist to keep the works from guming up. I have had this happen with one shot. I now use a lube pad, maybe I will try tumbeling non wiped cases just to see.

April 15, 2006, 08:27 PM	#20
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Thx, Ammo Junkie for performing the experiment. We can point to yr work the NEXT time this urban myth resurfaces--which I'm unfortunately confident that it will. Seems that provably untrue ideas are among the hardest to kill! Well, there are still people who refuse to accept the "theory" that the earth isn't flat. Guess I shouldn't be surprised. Good shooting to all, with ammo prepared whichever way you favor it. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe

April 15, 2006, 08:39 PM	#21
Ken O Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan Posts: 353	If tumbling loaded rounds was bad, the ammo would be worthless. As someone said, it gets trucked around when shipped. Also those that were in the service knows how beat around the ammo gets riding around in trucks, tanks, etc, and in my day, Jeeps, makes that tumbler a pillow by comparison. I read somewhere, but cant verify, that commercial ammo is tumbled to polish after its loaded. I don't tumble my loaded ammo, but if I wanted to, I wouldn't hesitate.