Played with a PPQ and P07 yesterday... - Page 2

balance · August 31, 2013, 12:08 PM

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I all honesty a plain glock,mp, xdm could squeeze out similar accuracy. There are many pistols capable of good mechanical accuracy...1 inch difference at 50yd difference doesn't really matter. You could change blackstrap and have better recoil management

So why have any choices other than either one of those mentioned?

Are Glocks, M&Ps, and XDMs overrated too, because the PPQ is similar?

What do you shoot, and why do you shoot it?

Glocks are currently suffering from issues where brass is being chucked back at people's faces. M&Ps are currently suffering from accuracy issues where groups begin to open up dramatically after 15 yards. XDM's are OK as far as issues, but some don't like the grip safety, or the fact that the roll pin on the top of the slide is prone to breaking.

The PPQ currently has no design related issues, with a grip and trigger that are considered excellent, out of the box, by many. I have yet to see an outfit offer a trigger job or grip reduction for a PPQ or P99. Some may consider this overrated, but I certainly don't.

Uncle Malice · August 31, 2013, 12:25 PM

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Glocks are currently suffering from issues where brass is being chucked back at people's faces. M&Ps are currently suffering from accuracy issues where groups begin to open up dramatically after 15 yards.

The Glock eratic ejection issue is known but dramatically overblown. I have owned 8 gen4 guns and not 1 of them have experienced this(or any) issues. Similarly, of the 4 close friends that have gen4 19's and 17's - none of them have seen this issue either. I'm not saying it doesn't happen... we know it does, but people try to make it sound like it's every gun off the line, it is most certainly not.

On a similar note, there were a small number of early M&P 9mm guns that had some issues with bullet tumbling, but that has been LONG since fixed.

balance · August 31, 2013, 12:39 PM

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I'm not saying it doesn't happen... we know it does, but people try to make it sound like it's every gun off the line, it is most certainly not.

I agree with you, but I can't help but wonder what the fate of the PPQ would be if it suffered a similar issue on a similar number of pistols.

People would more than likely revert back to the "just buy a Glock" mantra, but because it is Glock that has these issues, people are willing, or actively trying to give them a pass.

Quote:

On a similar note, there were a small number of early M&P 9mm guns that had some issues with bullet tumbling, but that has been LONG since fixed.

There were guys reporting this issue as little as a month ago.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...accuracy+issue

WVsig · August 31, 2013, 12:40 PM

Why does everyone feel the need to defend the PPQ. Except for the statements about the reset the OP has stated nothing new or out of the ordinary about the PPQ.

Look around the Walther world and many echo his sentiments about the length and 2 stage feel of the trigger.

"Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all..." Sam from Ronin

balance · August 31, 2013, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Why does everyone feel the need to defend the PPQ. Except for the statements about the reset the OP has stated nothing new or out of the ordinary about the PPQ.

I can only speak for myself here, but I'm not defending the pistol, I'm questioning the conclusions that the OP came up with.

If someone said that 1911 triggers were terrible, and then someone questioned them on that statement, would that be defending the 1911?

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Look around the Walther world and many echo his sentiments about the length and 2 stage feel of the trigger.

I've never heard anyone make a complaint about the length of the trigger pull before, but I have heard people refer to it as a "2-stage trigger".

Quote:

"Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all..." Sam from Ronin

But we have choices on what we purchase. I'm sure even Sam from Ronin has a preference.

WVsig · August 31, 2013, 12:50 PM

There is a huge difference between stating preferences vs arguing that the OP is wrong.

If someone said the 1911 had a crappy trigger I would ask about the gun in question. Is it NIB has it been modified? What was it you did not like about it? I would ask what criteria do you use to determine what = a great trigger?

I am not sure I would simply declare the OP to be wrong as so many in this thread have. I would be interested in how many of the people who stated that the OP is flat out wrong own and love a PPQ.

In regard to preference we all have one but preferences are not universal truths are they....

Sam preferred the 1911....

balance · August 31, 2013, 01:00 PM

Quote:

There is a huge difference between stating preferences vs arguing that the OP is wrong.

I stated this in post #9:

"You are welcome to your opinion, but many people have, and will, disagree with your conclusions."

Quote:

If someone said the 1911 had a crappy trigger I would ask about the gun in question. Is it NIB has it been modified? What was it you did not like about it? I would ask what criteria do you use to determine what = a great trigger?

I stated this in post #6:

"I'm curious to know what pistols you currently shoot that have a shorter reset than a PPQ. There are few that do, and almost all are steel framed pistols, such as a 1911, or a 3rd gen S&W semi-automatic. Even then, the length of reset is similar.

I'm also curious to know which polymer pistols you have shot that have a noticeably shorter length of trigger pull than the PPQ."

Quote:

I am not sure I would simply declare the OP to be wrong as so many in this thread have. I would be interested in how many of the people who stated that the OP is flat out wrong own and love a PPQ.

I own one, but I don't love it. I'll drop it tomorrow if someone comes out with a pistol with similar features that I can shoot better.

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In regard to preference we all have one but preferences are not universal truths are they....

Absolutely not.

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Sam preferred the 1911....

If someone told him the trigger pull was too long, or that the reset was too long, he would probably still prefer it.

I'm currently carrying my PPQ.

I agree with what you are getting at, I'm just not sure if your post was aimed at me or not. I'm not emotionally attached to any piece of plastic, any piece of metal, or any combination.

PP99 · September 1, 2013, 06:55 AM

-issues-safety-recall-for-xds-pistols/

tahunua001 · September 1, 2013, 12:46 PM

how did we get on recalls with glocks and springfields?
brass to the face is an issue that to my knowledge has never actually be addressed, the glock recalls revolved around the new recoil pring designs that were causing FTF/FTEs.

the springfield issue is just released and only affects the XDS(not XD or XDM) handguns which have nothing to do with the guns discussed here.

as for being questioned vs being called a liar/troll/ just plain wrong:
I can really care less. no amount of positive reviews/insults in the world will magically make my experience with these guns in my hands change.

Fishbed77 · September 1, 2013, 03:58 PM

Quote:

The PPQ is unquestionably the best striker fire pistol trigger you can get, next to the Walther P99AS.

There, I fixed that for you.

Tactical Jackalope · September 1, 2013, 06:48 PM

I'm with tahunua on this. You can even find the thread in which I personally owned a PPQ and the other thread where I gave it to one of my good friends. I just didn't like it. Didn't understand what all the fuss was about. I really assumed I would be wow'ed by it with all the hype I was reading on the Internet, and I simply wasn't. It's just average to me. That's all. Take it easy people. Different opinions happen lol. The PPQ isn't the greatest handgun or trigger on a handgun in the world to everyone.

Anyways, made my left handed friend very happy.

armoredman · September 1, 2013, 08:49 PM

I have never tried any Walther poly pistols, but have owned more than one Cz poly pistol, including that horrible example of DAO trigger gone BAD, the mercifully discontinued CZ-100. THAT is the single worst trigger I have ever felt in my life.
The P-07 I had was an "A" model, and I thought the trigger was OK, nothing spectacular. It was accurate and serviceable. The grip texture was indeed quite similar to a cheese grater, and I pointed that out early that it was not exactly suited to CCW against bare skin, unless you LIKE rug burns. I did that in AZ summer heat, and while I survived the experience, and I felt quite comfortable that the pistol would be as reliable and accurate as always, the mere fact that it had to remind me of it's presence at every step was annoying. That grip texture was made so the gun will not slip from your hand whether you are shooting in rain, snow or the inside of an oil drum.

Now have you wrapped a hand around the new P-09? It really feels like one of the best poly pistols I have ever used, incredibly easy to shoot. The trigger has a long reset compared to, say, a 1911, but I had no difficulty shooting it straight. Heck, at 25 yards shooting from decock I had no difficulty keeping all rounds on my 1/2 scale IDPA steel target. Try one of those, or a CZ SP-01 Phantom if you can find one, for some really nice CZ polymer.

Martowski · September 1, 2013, 11:38 PM

I do own and do love my PPQ. I currently have around 8 - 9 9mm pistols and have owned a number more (and shot others) in the past. The PPQ is one of my absolute favorite designs and wrestles with my STI Spartan as the most accurate "9" in my collection. Why do I "love" the PPQ so much?

1. Great trigger and short reset (in my opinion).
2. Great ergonomics; love the way the grip fits my hand.
3. Trigger guard mag release lever. I love this feature.

These are the three points that I love about the PPQ, but it's really the sum of all its qualities that make it one of my favorites. However, as always, I will say that guns are like cars: no "one" is right for everyone. While I think the PPQ is a great pistol and think that it must be fired before a firm opinion can be provided (just like you have to drive a car before passing judgement), it won't be for everyone and that's fine.

balance · September 2, 2013, 12:31 AM

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with the PPQ well over half the total travel was from the reset point to break point.

Length is not subjective. On a pistol with a .1" trigger reset, this statement must mean that the PPQ has shorter than a .2" total trigger travel.

The PPQ trigger resets at the break point, so the observation above is either incorrect, or the OP managed to get hold of a defective pistol. One with a defect that nobody else has ever encountered.

How questioning statements like these gets others to believe that someone is defending a manufacturer, is beyond me. Personally, I would consider it as just defending intelligence, or common knowledge, but so be it. Facts are facts, and the OP is in fact, wrong.

The XD has a 3" trigger reset and a 40lb trigger break.

Anyone who denies this, or insists that I'm wrong, is an XD fanboy.

RBid · September 3, 2013, 08:10 PM

First, I want to state plainly that I have a healthy respect for the OP. I've seen tahunua in many threads, and appreciate that he appears to be a great guy, and an asset to the board. This post is not a criticism of tahunua. It's simply relaying my experiences with the PPQ.

I managed an LGS for a bit. During that time, I obviously handled quite a few firearms. We had probably a dozen or so PPQs come through while I was there. I have also owned a PPQ, and ran more than 5,500 rounds through it, as well as getting a few thousand reps of dry fire (with snap caps) on it.

One of my routines when showing a PPQ to a customer was to demonstrate the reset by tossing a snap cap in, dry firing it + pinning the trigger back, running the slide manually, and then letting the trigger out. When I did so, I would leave my trigger finger on the blade, and use my support hand thumb to provide extra control during the let-out. Every time I have done this with mine or any other sample that I have handled, the trigger positively/audibly reset at the advertised 1/10". This makes sense, because of the fully staged striker mechanism of the PPQ-- running the slide primes it fully.

My assessment of the PPQ:
It's my favorite pistol on the market. IMO, best out-of-the-box trigger I've ever dealt with on a striker fired pistol, and I have a pretty healthy frame of reference (Caracal, etc). I would also say that it is tied with the HK P30 for best grip ergos on the market.

...but...

The PPQ has a high bore, and I do notice the relatively high muzzle rise. It's certainly not unbearable or a huge issue, but it's enough that I have an easier time tracking the front sight of my Glocks or Ruger SR9c during fast shooting. Mag price and availability were also huge annoyances for me.

Fishbed77 · September 3, 2013, 11:27 PM

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Mag price and availability were also huge annoyances for me.

You can buy mags for the PPQ (the original version with the proper paddle release anyway) all day long for $25 apiece:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/598...nd-steel-black

The mags for the Magnum Research MR9 (which is a Walther P99 Clone) are 100% identical to P99/PPQ mags, aside from the name on the polymer baseplate. They are made by Mec-Gar on the same assembly line as Walther-branded mags. I have a number of these mags, and they are flawless. Quality is identical to the Walther-marked ones, which is to say very high.

RBid · September 4, 2013, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishbed77

You can buy mags for the PPQ (the original version with the proper paddle release anyway) all day long for $25 apiece:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/598...nd-steel-black

The mags for the Magnum Research MR9 (which is a Walther P99 Clone) are 100% identical to P99/PPQ mags, aside from the name on the polymer baseplate. They are made by Mec-Gar on the same assembly line as Walther-branded mags. I have a number of these mags, and they are flawless. Quality is identical to the Walther-marked ones, which is to say very high.

Now, sure. I have had the part # memorized for awhile: magfa915. I've referenced it here, myself. At the height of the craziness, I couldn't find them anywhere, and had orders in through 3 sites for a month. During that same period, I picked up multiple mags and holsters for a Glock 23, no problem.

Again, I'm a PPQ and P99AS fan. GREAT pistols. My favorites, even. Glocks are not better pistols, but they're convenient.

Tactical Jackalope · September 4, 2013, 08:08 AM

Lol ^^^^ I think Glocks are better pistols.

Around and around we go.

Fishbed77 · September 4, 2013, 08:55 AM

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At the height of the craziness, I couldn't find them anywhere, and had orders in through 3 sites for a month.

Magnum Research (Kahr's) website had the MR9/P99/PPQ mags orderable. They were not listed as "in-stock" but they shipped as soon as they got more. Most folks at waltherforums.com reported getting them about a month or so after ordering.

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Lol ^^^^ I think Glocks are better pistols.

If you like pistols with crude ergonomics, sloppier fit & finish, worse triggers, erratic ejection, and that seem to get less-reliable with each new generation, sure they are better!

Tactical Jackalope · September 4, 2013, 09:11 AM

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If you like pistols with crude ergonomics, sloppier fit & finish, worse triggers, erratic ejection, and that seem to get less-reliable with each new generation, sure they are better!

Okay...lol opinion. Some say..

If you like pistols with good ergonomics, durable fit & finish, crisp triggers, 3 o'clock ejection, and that seem to stay as reliable with each new generation, sure they are better!

There..I fixed it for a whole lot of other people to our own opinions.

thanks for tuning in!

Fishbed77 · September 4, 2013, 10:40 AM

Quote:

If you like pistols with good ergonomics, durable fit & finish, crisp triggers, 3 o'clock ejection, and that seem to stay as reliable with each new generation, sure they are better!

There..I fixed it for a whole lot of other people to our own opinions. thanks for tuning in!
__________________

But you said "better." This comment just describes Glock pistols through Gen 3. Not what makes them better. The P99/PPQ excels in each of the categories you mention (with the notable exception of the PPQ M2's step backwards in terms of the mag release design).

FYI - I like Glocks too. Definitely superior in terms of availability of pistols, accessories, and mags.

Tactical Jackalope · September 4, 2013, 11:01 AM

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The P99/PPQ excels in each of the categories you mention (with the notable exception of the PPQ M2's step backwards in terms of the mag release design).

That's still just your opinion. Not a general fact. Mine differs. What's the problem? lol carry on.

armoredman · September 4, 2013, 12:10 PM

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If you like pistols with good ergonomics, durable fit & finish, crisp triggers, 3 o'clock ejection, and that seem to stay as reliable with each new generation, CZ pistols are better!

Since opinion are being thrown about as fact.

For the record, I qualify with Glock 19s and 17s every year with my Dept, and shoot Expert or Distinguished Expert with them. I can't stand 'em. The grip angle doesn't fit me, I don't like the trigger, and I have had more than one fail in my hand. OTOH, Glocks are generally reliable, durable well made pistols that are accurate and dependable, otherwise even the dirt cheap prices Glock offers to LE agencies wouldn't suffice to keep them in cops holsters this long. I don't believe they are the be all, end all of handguns, nor do I believe my favorite CZ pistols are the be all, end all of handguns, but for me, I'd MUCH rather bet my life on my CZ, and I do, every day.

The above is personal opinion and personal experience, nothing more, nothing less.

lechiffre · September 4, 2013, 12:37 PM

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Why does everyone feel the need to defend the PPQ. Except for the statements about the reset the OP has stated nothing new or out of the ordinary about the PPQ.

I think that when someone familiar with Walthers reads something like "the reset of the PPQ's trigger seems longish" the first that comes to mind is something like "are you certain it wasn't a PPX, or P99QA, or PPS".

Fishbed77 · September 4, 2013, 04:36 PM

Quote:

That's still just your opinion. Not a general fact. Mine differs. What's the problem? lol carry on.

Except those items I listed generally are facts. While I yeild that ergonomics are certainly subjective, most folks agree that a smoother, crisper trigger enhances practical accuracy and is a desirable trait (ie "better"). Fit & finish is tangible. Cleaner machining and less molding flash are not matters of "opinion". Gen4 Glocks initially had well-documented issues with recoil springs, extractors, and erratic ejection. Many folks report that the new "flat" finish of Glocks is less durable than the shinier finish of old. This is also tangible, so not really a matter of opinion.

The transitions from the 1st-gen to 2nd-gen P99s to the PPQ (which is essentially just another generation of P99 with a new trigger group) were essentially seamless, with no significant and repeated design issues or revisions by Walther. And this despite the fact that each generational change with the Walthers was more significant than with the Glocks.

Not to get into a peeing contest, though. Both designs are obviously excellent and well-liked (even though one has certainly been marketed much harder and much more effectively).

August 31, 2013, 12:40 PM	#29
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	Why does everyone feel the need to defend the PPQ. Except for the statements about the reset the OP has stated nothing new or out of the ordinary about the PPQ. Look around the Walther world and many echo his sentiments about the length and 2 stage feel of the trigger. "Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all..." Sam from Ronin __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

August 31, 2013, 12:50 PM	#31
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	There is a huge difference between stating preferences vs arguing that the OP is wrong. If someone said the 1911 had a crappy trigger I would ask about the gun in question. Is it NIB has it been modified? What was it you did not like about it? I would ask what criteria do you use to determine what = a great trigger? I am not sure I would simply declare the OP to be wrong as so many in this thread have. I would be interested in how many of the people who stated that the OP is flat out wrong own and love a PPQ. In regard to preference we all have one but preferences are not universal truths are they.... Sam preferred the 1911.... __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

September 1, 2013, 12:46 PM	#34
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	how did we get on recalls with glocks and springfields? brass to the face is an issue that to my knowledge has never actually be addressed, the glock recalls revolved around the new recoil pring designs that were causing FTF/FTEs. the springfield issue is just released and only affects the XDS(not XD or XDM) handguns which have nothing to do with the guns discussed here. as for being questioned vs being called a liar/troll/ just plain wrong: I can really care less. no amount of positive reviews/insults in the world will magically make my experience with these guns in my hands change. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

September 1, 2013, 06:48 PM	#36
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	Played with a PPQ and P07 yesterday... I'm with tahunua on this. You can even find the thread in which I personally owned a PPQ and the other thread where I gave it to one of my good friends. I just didn't like it. Didn't understand what all the fuss was about. I really assumed I would be wow'ed by it with all the hype I was reading on the Internet, and I simply wasn't. It's just average to me. That's all. Take it easy people. Different opinions happen lol. The PPQ isn't the greatest handgun or trigger on a handgun in the world to everyone. Anyways, made my left handed friend very happy.

September 1, 2013, 11:38 PM	#38
Martowski Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Texas (By Way of Illinois) Posts: 1,376	I do own and do love my PPQ. I currently have around 8 - 9 9mm pistols and have owned a number more (and shot others) in the past. The PPQ is one of my absolute favorite designs and wrestles with my STI Spartan as the most accurate "9" in my collection. Why do I "love" the PPQ so much? 1. Great trigger and short reset (in my opinion). 2. Great ergonomics; love the way the grip fits my hand. 3. Trigger guard mag release lever. I love this feature. These are the three points that I love about the PPQ, but it's really the sum of all its qualities that make it one of my favorites. However, as always, I will say that guns are like cars: no "one" is right for everyone. While I think the PPQ is a great pistol and think that it must be fired before a firm opinion can be provided (just like you have to drive a car before passing judgement), it won't be for everyone and that's fine. __________________ Midwestern Ramblings (my amateur firearms blog): http://martowski.wordpress.com/

September 1, 2013, 06:55 AM	#33
PP99 Member Join Date: August 16, 2013 Posts: 85	-issues-safety-recall-for-xds-pistols/

September 1, 2013, 08:49 PM	#37
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	I have never tried any Walther poly pistols, but have owned more than one Cz poly pistol, including that horrible example of DAO trigger gone BAD, the mercifully discontinued CZ-100. THAT is the single worst trigger I have ever felt in my life. The P-07 I had was an "A" model, and I thought the trigger was OK, nothing spectacular. It was accurate and serviceable. The grip texture was indeed quite similar to a cheese grater, and I pointed that out early that it was not exactly suited to CCW against bare skin, unless you LIKE rug burns. I did that in AZ summer heat, and while I survived the experience, and I felt quite comfortable that the pistol would be as reliable and accurate as always, the mere fact that it had to remind me of it's presence at every step was annoying. That grip texture was made so the gun will not slip from your hand whether you are shooting in rain, snow or the inside of an oil drum. Now have you wrapped a hand around the new P-09? It really feels like one of the best poly pistols I have ever used, incredibly easy to shoot. The trigger has a long reset compared to, say, a 1911, but I had no difficulty shooting it straight. Heck, at 25 yards shooting from decock I had no difficulty keeping all rounds on my 1/2 scale IDPA steel target. Try one of those, or a CZ SP-01 Phantom if you can find one, for some really nice CZ polymer.

September 3, 2013, 08:10 PM	#40
RBid Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2012 Posts: 1,059	First, I want to state plainly that I have a healthy respect for the OP. I've seen tahunua in many threads, and appreciate that he appears to be a great guy, and an asset to the board. This post is not a criticism of tahunua. It's simply relaying my experiences with the PPQ. I managed an LGS for a bit. During that time, I obviously handled quite a few firearms. We had probably a dozen or so PPQs come through while I was there. I have also owned a PPQ, and ran more than 5,500 rounds through it, as well as getting a few thousand reps of dry fire (with snap caps) on it. One of my routines when showing a PPQ to a customer was to demonstrate the reset by tossing a snap cap in, dry firing it + pinning the trigger back, running the slide manually, and then letting the trigger out. When I did so, I would leave my trigger finger on the blade, and use my support hand thumb to provide extra control during the let-out. Every time I have done this with mine or any other sample that I have handled, the trigger positively/audibly reset at the advertised 1/10". This makes sense, because of the fully staged striker mechanism of the PPQ-- running the slide primes it fully. My assessment of the PPQ: It's my favorite pistol on the market. IMO, best out-of-the-box trigger I've ever dealt with on a striker fired pistol, and I have a pretty healthy frame of reference (Caracal, etc). I would also say that it is tied with the HK P30 for best grip ergos on the market. ...but... The PPQ has a high bore, and I do notice the relatively high muzzle rise. It's certainly not unbearable or a huge issue, but it's enough that I have an easier time tracking the front sight of my Glocks or Ruger SR9c during fast shooting. Mag price and availability were also huge annoyances for me. __________________ Currently Own: Beretta PX4 9mm, Glock 23 (Gen 4), Glock 19 (Gen 4) x2

September 4, 2013, 08:08 AM	#43
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	Played with a PPQ and P07 yesterday... Lol ^^^^ I think Glocks are better pistols. Around and around we go.