Downside to Expensive Customs

Capt. Charlie · April 23, 2007, 09:53 PM

Well, I just came off a call in which a man jumped out of a car and threatened area residents with an AR-15 (look alike, turned out to be a pellet gun). It's night here and it was pouring down rain.

I've got 'im at gunpoint (my Les Baer 1911), shouting commands at him, and what was going through my mind???

Damn! My gun's getting wet!!!

Maybe there's something to be said for them plastic guns after all

.

evan1293 · April 23, 2007, 10:03 PM

Wow! thats a bit of excitment...glad it worked out alright. The best part about the highend customs is when they start to get wear marks all over them. Untill then every little scratch makes you want to cry

CarbineCaleb · April 23, 2007, 10:43 PM

Hi Capt - glad to hear you're alright, but as to the pistol - we all should have such 'problems'!

BikerRN · April 24, 2007, 12:58 AM

Nothing I own is a "Safe Queen".

My EDC is a Thunder Ranch S&W Revolver. It cost me a pretty penny, but my life and those of my loved ones is worth it. To me guns are tools, and I want the best tool for the job. If that's a $500 "Plastic" Gun then so be it. If it's my $700+ "High Dollar" Revolver, then so be it. The "prettyness" of it is just "icing on the cake".

Besides, it's good for a gun to have "character".

Biker

Trip20 · April 24, 2007, 08:36 AM

Glad you're safe.

I could care less about the pistol.

Samurai · April 24, 2007, 08:53 AM

'S'matter, Charlie? Nobody ever teach you how to oil a 1911?

Seriously, though. That Les Baer will be fine. It costs a lot because it can withstand a lot.

Glad you're ok. Sounds like you've had a wild night!

OBIWAN · April 24, 2007, 09:19 AM

" Nothing I own is a "Safe Queen". "

Amen brother

If I realize something is not getting shot it ends up on the for sale forum

"It costs a lot because it can withstand a lot."

Yeah right...a $2,000 1911 is less likely to rust than a $500 Glock

Glenn E. Meyer · April 24, 2007, 09:47 AM

I had to stand in the range with my 1911 at the IDPA match this weekend. Wah!

This reminds me of threads where folks said that if they were involved in a shooting, the law arrived and told them to drop the gun - they would lecture on how expensive their custom gun was and how they were going to place it gently on the ground , maybe even unloading it for the nice officer - yelling:

DROP THE GUN NOW!!!

Would you listen to that, Capt. Charlie - now that we know you have a soft spot in your heart for expensive guns!

Magnum Wheel Man · April 24, 2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

To me guns are tools, and I want the best tool for the job. If that's a $500 "Plastic" Gun then so be it. If it's my $700+ "High Dollar" Revolver, then so be it.

thats an interesting statement...

I currently own a wide range "quality" of tools... tools that will get wrecked I often only buy marginal quality

I.E. my chainsaw is a $150.00 machine... sure I could buy a top of the line machine, but if I use that chainsaw for 2 years, it costs me $75.00 per year, & when it starts to get worn or goes bad, I just walk out & buy another just like it, it's a much better value ( to me ), than spending $800.00 for a very high quality machine, when the ( for example ) recoil rope, breaks in 2 years on either machine... the higher quality one has to go back to a specific dealer, & get repaired, likely at my cost... & if I've gotten 2 years out of my cheaper one... I just buy a new one, rather than fixing the rope...

... I use this same thinking with riding lawn mowers, I buy a mid priced brand, because we have a 100 year old farm, & I hit things in the long grass all the time... I've found that cheap machines just don't cut it, so I've been buying good quality, but not the most expensive, because if I hit a big piece of steel sticking up out of the ground, it's not going to matter wheather the machine is a Murry, a Snapper, or a John Deere...

... so my thoughts back to the "Gun thing", is... is it truely a tool, or is it something more than a tool... does the specific use justify a custom high end tool, or will the "Snapper" of the gun world suffice ??? for me, its off the shelf S&W's for my standard carry guns... but again for me, they are concield carry tools, so they are not "ornimental" or worn openly... I can understand that those that openly carry those tools, the customs would be nice, lots nicer to look at than those "black plastic" guns, but IMO, lots of people carry, & consiquently wear / wear out custom guns that probably would better hold thier value if they were safe queens...yes, I have several that are ( somewhat ) safe queens... they all do get fired, but a carry gun, to me, is a much more utilitarian tool, than my nickle plated 1911 ( for example )

Capt. Charlie · April 24, 2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

My EDC is a Thunder Ranch S&W Revolver. It cost me a pretty penny, but my life and those of my loved ones is worth it. To me guns are tools, and I want the best tool for the job. If that's a $500 "Plastic" Gun then so be it. If it's my $700+ "High Dollar" Revolver, then so be it. The "prettyness" of it is just "icing on the cake".

I went with the Baer as a duty weapon because of this incident last December. You're absolutely right about the safe queens. They aren't doing me any good stashed away. Having mediocre tools that fail in most jobs is usually nothing more than an irritating inconvenience, but when my life depends on them, I want the very best.

Actually, the thing that bothers me most is my lack of focus. If you do this long enough, you can't help but become somewhat complacent. Things do become.... "routine", and that's the deadliest thing there is in this business.

I rant and rave all the time at my people about it, and then find myself doing the same thing. 99.999% focus won't cut it, folks. If you're in a defensive situation, it takes 100%.

So for you trainers out there, how do you avoid complacency and keep the edge?

BikerRN · April 24, 2007, 01:56 PM

Magnum,

OK, I confess to spending more on the Revolver because I like it. I have a thing for wheelguns.
Mine has been "slicked up" by the Performance Center, after purchase. The Glock, Kahr or any reputable make of handgun would do the job. I just have a sentimental attachment to wheelguns and refuse to give them up. Mine has been turned in to my EDC, but it's really more of a BBQ Gun.
I also shoot better with the "High Dollar" gun, so that's how I justify packing it daily. I figure if I ever have to use it I can kiss it goodbye, since it will sit rusting in an evidence locker for a while before I get it back.
Biker

markj · April 24, 2007, 02:02 PM

I can attest to tools, I was a mechanic for 20 years, bought sears junk to start. Found that they break a lot, then yoiu gotta go to sears and jump thru the hoops. Switched to MAC and Snap-on, no more breakage, same with anything you use in a professional venue, buy the best you can, doesnt nesasarilly mean most expensive either.

My cousins that are LEO, one has a S&W 9mm semi auto the other a old trooper, he is semi retired tho so he sits a desk nowadays. Neither has had to pull a weapon on the job, the older cous says his mind is his strongest weapon and has talked a few out of their weapons rather than shoot them.

Magnum Wheel Man · April 24, 2007, 02:31 PM

BIKER... my carry's are both revolvers as well...

32 H&R mag S&W air weight snub ( for low risk situations )

44 Special light weight Mountain 3" ( for high risk situations )

both are very good quality guns, but they lack the flash & tightness of a custom piece...

... to me the most impressive thing I've seen out of a carry gun ( & I don't own a Glock... yet ) ( thinking about a model 20, in 10 mm ), is the fact they'll shoot even if covered / burryed / imersed in dirt, and or mud... while the custom tighter "tools" can jam up with a little pocket lint...

... I love my magnum Dan Wesson revolvers, but a few speedloaders of super mags through them ( as tight as I keep the barrel / cylinder gap ), & they can start to get sticky... for carrying, I'd rather have something designed with enough slop, that it might not ever be a tack driver, but that I could drop it, send it skittling across the parking lot, & recover it, & have it work like designed...

( I have an aluminum framed S&W that has some pretty bad gouges in it from my 1st ( cheap ) carry holster, & it's lack of ability to retain the gun after getting out of a vehical, after wearing a seat belt )... as it was I was seriously bummed when it dismounted & did a back flip across a concrete driveway... I would have been in serious dumps if that had been one of my safe queens...

Magnum Wheel Man · April 24, 2007, 02:43 PM

CAP... not a trainer ( closer to a trainee )... but...

Quote:

So for you trainers out there, how do you avoid complacency and keep the edge?

IMO, aside from years & years of training, or from guns & combat shooting being one's passion ( I think both are very effective at "avoiding complacency" though the years & years are harder for a rookie to come by )... inbetween, probably fear / paranoia is likely the biggest thing in your favor of maintaining an edge to situations with the BG's...

anytime we become comfortable, we are at risk, unless we are trained or expirienced enough to be comfortable while looking for "those" situations...

WIN71 · April 24, 2007, 06:22 PM

It is difficult to find a way to combat it on a day to day basis. What ever you do it must be varied and unpredictable. If it isn't, complacency will negate the training. On a hard core knuckle dragger, the type of scenario the Captain described will usually snap him out of the doldrums for a while.
By the way Capt. it was usually my experience when a high ranking uniform got involved in something on the street it was not complacency that caused the riff.
Just kidding........ I understand who dug those trenches the current street cops are fighting in.

Capt. Charlie · April 24, 2007, 10:44 PM

Quote:

By the way Capt. it was usually my experience when a high ranking uniform got involved in something on the street it was not complacency that caused the riff.

I'm a Mustanger, Win; came up through the ranks, but I know the type you speak of.

I still try to keep my hand in on the streets, even though my guys think of me as the old man (literally

). In the same way you can loose the edge through complacency, you can loose it (hell, you will loose it) by being out of touch. I need to know my people's needs, what today's crop of bad guys are all about, and even what training deficiencies exist, and I can't tell that by riding a desk.

Complacency is a real problem, and it's probably the toughest thing for LE or military brass to combat. Things like a street survival school, FOF training, etc., help for the short term, but overall I could use some tips on keeping the edge sharp over the long term.

WIN71 · April 24, 2007, 11:11 PM

Quote:

I'm a Mustanger, Win;

Figured you were. Of the 16 years as a road dog and 17 as a Sgt. I was fortunate to have worked for a commander with like qualities. It was a sad day when he retired.

vostracker · April 27, 2007, 07:53 PM

Capt Charlie,
Glad your OK. The best thing I can think of, would be for you to go out and ride along with the troops on their calls or even take calls yourself. Nothing like getting in the trenches to bring back the ol edge. I'm not sure how the troops would feel, ( I always was paranoid when a supervisor wanted to ride), but if you explained it to them and went out and took a call or did a report, I know they would be impressed. Not sure what your departments policy is about ranking officers doing patrol work though. Stay safe.

April 23, 2007, 09:53 PM	#1
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	Downside to Expensive Customs Well, I just came off a call in which a man jumped out of a car and threatened area residents with an AR-15 (look alike, turned out to be a pellet gun). It's night here and it was pouring down rain. I've got 'im at gunpoint (my Les Baer 1911), shouting commands at him, and what was going through my mind??? Damn! My gun's getting wet!!! Maybe there's something to be said for them plastic guns after all . __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

April 23, 2007, 10:43 PM	#3
CarbineCaleb Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2004 Posts: 2,745	Hi Capt - glad to hear you're alright, but as to the pistol - we all should have such 'problems'! __________________ “Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.” Niels Bohr

April 24, 2007, 08:53 AM	#6
Samurai Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 901	'S'matter, Charlie? Nobody ever teach you how to oil a 1911? Seriously, though. That Les Baer will be fine. It costs a lot because it can withstand a lot. Glad you're ok. Sounds like you've had a wild night! __________________ - Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed! - Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight? - When in doubt, train, train, train...

April 24, 2007, 09:47 AM	#8
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I had to stand in the range with my 1911 at the IDPA match this weekend. Wah! This reminds me of threads where folks said that if they were involved in a shooting, the law arrived and told them to drop the gun - they would lecture on how expensive their custom gun was and how they were going to place it gently on the ground , maybe even unloading it for the nice officer - yelling: DROP THE GUN NOW!!! Would you listen to that, Capt. Charlie - now that we know you have a soft spot in your heart for expensive guns! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

April 24, 2007, 02:31 PM	#13
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	BIKER... my carry's are both revolvers as well... 32 H&R mag S&W air weight snub ( for low risk situations ) 44 Special light weight Mountain 3" ( for high risk situations ) both are very good quality guns, but they lack the flash & tightness of a custom piece... ... to me the most impressive thing I've seen out of a carry gun ( & I don't own a Glock... yet ) ( thinking about a model 20, in 10 mm ), is the fact they'll shoot even if covered / burryed / imersed in dirt, and or mud... while the custom tighter "tools" can jam up with a little pocket lint... ... I love my magnum Dan Wesson revolvers, but a few speedloaders of super mags through them ( as tight as I keep the barrel / cylinder gap ), & they can start to get sticky... for carrying, I'd rather have something designed with enough slop, that it might not ever be a tack driver, but that I could drop it, send it skittling across the parking lot, & recover it, & have it work like designed... ( I have an aluminum framed S&W that has some pretty bad gouges in it from my 1st ( cheap ) carry holster, & it's lack of ability to retain the gun after getting out of a vehical, after wearing a seat belt )... as it was I was seriously bummed when it dismounted & did a back flip across a concrete driveway... I would have been in serious dumps if that had been one of my safe queens... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; April 24, 2007 at 03:41 PM.

April 23, 2007, 10:03 PM	#2
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	Wow! thats a bit of excitment...glad it worked out alright. The best part about the highend customs is when they start to get wear marks all over them. Untill then every little scratch makes you want to cry

April 24, 2007, 12:58 AM	#4
BikerRN Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2007 Location: "State of Discombobulation" Posts: 1,333	Nothing I own is a "Safe Queen". My EDC is a Thunder Ranch S&W Revolver. It cost me a pretty penny, but my life and those of my loved ones is worth it. To me guns are tools, and I want the best tool for the job. If that's a $500 "Plastic" Gun then so be it. If it's my $700+ "High Dollar" Revolver, then so be it. The "prettyness" of it is just "icing on the cake". Besides, it's good for a gun to have "character". Biker

April 24, 2007, 08:36 AM	#5
Trip20 Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Posts: 2,181	Glad you're safe. I could care less about the pistol.

April 24, 2007, 09:19 AM	#7
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	" Nothing I own is a "Safe Queen". " Amen brother If I realize something is not getting shot it ends up on the for sale forum "It costs a lot because it can withstand a lot." Yeah right...a $2,000 1911 is less likely to rust than a $500 Glock

April 24, 2007, 01:56 PM	#11
BikerRN Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2007 Location: "State of Discombobulation" Posts: 1,333	Magnum, OK, I confess to spending more on the Revolver because I like it. I have a thing for wheelguns. Mine has been "slicked up" by the Performance Center, after purchase. The Glock, Kahr or any reputable make of handgun would do the job. I just have a sentimental attachment to wheelguns and refuse to give them up. Mine has been turned in to my EDC, but it's really more of a BBQ Gun. I also shoot better with the "High Dollar" gun, so that's how I justify packing it daily. I figure if I ever have to use it I can kiss it goodbye, since it will sit rusting in an evidence locker for a while before I get it back. Biker

April 24, 2007, 02:02 PM	#12
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	I can attest to tools, I was a mechanic for 20 years, bought sears junk to start. Found that they break a lot, then yoiu gotta go to sears and jump thru the hoops. Switched to MAC and Snap-on, no more breakage, same with anything you use in a professional venue, buy the best you can, doesnt nesasarilly mean most expensive either. My cousins that are LEO, one has a S&W 9mm semi auto the other a old trooper, he is semi retired tho so he sits a desk nowadays. Neither has had to pull a weapon on the job, the older cous says his mind is his strongest weapon and has talked a few out of their weapons rather than shoot them.

April 24, 2007, 06:22 PM	#15
WIN71 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Posts: 729	Complacency It is difficult to find a way to combat it on a day to day basis. What ever you do it must be varied and unpredictable. If it isn't, complacency will negate the training. On a hard core knuckle dragger, the type of scenario the Captain described will usually snap him out of the doldrums for a while. By the way Capt. it was usually my experience when a high ranking uniform got involved in something on the street it was not complacency that caused the riff. Just kidding........ I understand who dug those trenches the current street cops are fighting in. __________________ Air goes in and out. Blood goes 'round and 'round. Any variation on this is a very bad thing. 개인 정보를 보호하십시요

April 27, 2007, 07:53 PM	#18
vostracker Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2007 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 416	Capt Charlie, Glad your OK. The best thing I can think of, would be for you to go out and ride along with the troops on their calls or even take calls yourself. Nothing like getting in the trenches to bring back the ol edge. I'm not sure how the troops would feel, ( I always was paranoid when a supervisor wanted to ride), but if you explained it to them and went out and took a call or did a report, I know they would be impressed. Not sure what your departments policy is about ranking officers doing patrol work though. Stay safe.