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June 3, 2013, 04:24 PM | #26 | |
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Yes. Once the shooter got rounds off these people ran got armed and subdued the shooter before any further damage could be done.
The list was released due to Sandy Hook and is floating around. Got to head to work, but I'll see if I can find the list. Quote:
Arming staff or hiring a SRO will not solve our gun violence in schools. You must look MUCH deeper than that. Sadly no one wants to. The focus is always and will always be around the tool used: firearms. To make it simpler...unless funded by the private sector this nation can not afford hiring armed guards in state and federal levels of budget.
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June 3, 2013, 04:38 PM | #27 |
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Ike
Eisenhower once said: "The only way we can all be totally secure is if we are all in jail." The concept of armed guards in the schools, or in the courts, or around the president, or around our homes simply makes us less free.
The point of the Constitutional protections are not to make you safe. It has been shown repeatedly that security is all an illusion. In the end you aren't safe from anything. The point of Constitutional protections are to protect your free will. This gives you the choice of having armed security or not. Of sending your children to school or not. Going to the movie theater or not. Carrying a weapon or not. God endowed man with Free Will. Government didn't endow man with anything (except a very large pain in the a$$). I don't understand the circumstances regarding the attack on the school children in Thailand so it's hard to know if the attackers are the greater threat to the children or if the soldiers manning the school building are. Anywhere government "security" personnel are providing protection leaves the citizens under their protection vulnerable to such protection. Hippocrates said "First, do no harm." This doesn't only apply to the medical profession. It applies to all governments as well. Especially members of the executive branch. The power entrusted to such men is neither a joke nor an illusion. So in the end it boils down to a simple choice: Do you want to place your life &/or the life of your family in the hands of another? Or do you want to keep it in your own hands? There is great risk either way. The Constitution protects your right to Free Will. Which means the choice belongs solely to you. You are free to do as you wish. That is what the 2nd Amendment protections are all about. That is what all Constitutional protections are all about. Last edited by Evan Thomas; June 3, 2013 at 07:29 PM. Reason: removed Nazi references. |
June 3, 2013, 09:24 PM | #28 | |
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Quote:
Cure the societal ills, the violence stops |
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June 3, 2013, 09:39 PM | #29 |
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Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
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In my own Fairfax County, SROs are, indeed, fully sworn, uniformed, and armed Fairfax County Police officers, driving marked and equipped FCPD cruisers. They are cops, first, last and always. They may or may not have a particular charism for dealing with bumptious yutes, but they are cops, enforcing the law.
Sadly, there is far more need in our schools for enforcement of the criminal code against the pupils than there is for protection from outside lunatics. Our local high school was home to Seung-Hui Cho, the Virginia Tech shooter, and Michael Kennedy, who stole guns from his stoner dad, carjacked a vehicle, and attacked the local police precinct, killing two brave officers, MPO Michael Garbarino, and Det. Vicki Armel, both parents of young children. Police also broke up a major league heroin ring, scoring dope from Baltimore, and a prostitution ring. This in one of the wealthiest communities in the country. Don't think the students aren't drawing the "right" lessons.
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June 3, 2013, 10:11 PM | #30 | |
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June 4, 2013, 07:38 PM | #31 |
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Location: Charlottesville, VA
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In the early 1990s I was an armed security officer. The company I worked for was contracted to provide armed security service to a private school that was holding dances for Middle School aged kids. My responsibilties were traffic control during drop-off and pick-up. I was also charged with the safety of all there. There were no incidents at these dances other than some kids trying to leave the dance area for other locations. So in my experience a properly trained armed officer can be a big benefit to prevention of many illegal activities on school property.
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June 4, 2013, 08:17 PM | #32 |
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Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
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Does having security guards at schools prevent attacks?
I never said that removing the signs would stop these incidents. However, not telling the would be killer where to go would be a step in the right direction. There is no one solution to this problem unfortunately there are too many people who think putting this sign up makes sense and it simply does not. It is an invitation.
I also pointed out the there needs to be layers. As the Dr. pointed out there are also societal issues. Year after year for several decades we have allowed generations to think the answer is hand over your rights to the government. This hardly works. We have generations of people who think laws stop mass murderers. |
June 9, 2013, 07:44 AM | #33 | ||
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Join Date: January 25, 2013
Posts: 317
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Quote:
Yes and no for the mass events. they may have had some connection to the venue, but they used school, theaters and other high vulnerability areas because they are easy targets and the shooters are obsessed with body counts. In that case the likelihood of disarmed victims is a draw to that venue. There are indications directly from the writings of the perps that this was a factor in both Oslo and Newton Quote:
1) Columbine was a long time ago. Presumably that SRO had little to no training in lessons learned from prior shootings. Those lessons learned are now available. 2) the phrasing of the OP question is problematic. the logical question is do they prevent, deter or reduce causalities in some or any? I would say yes. You cannot use only cases where an attack occurred. you have to postulate deterrence. If you do not postulate or estimate deterrence you are falling into the same logical fallacy of anti-vaccine folks asking for lists of people saved by vaccines. (pro gun control people universally fall victim to the same anti science views of anti-vaccine "activists.") 3) Longitudinal studies comparing equal demographics schools show reduced crime, including crime against persons, in schools with armed SRO/police. That is why the Senate Dems, even though they initially mocked LaPierre for the suggestion, had to put SRO support in the bill. Lots of kids are beaten, robbed, raped, assaulted and killed in schools without being victims of a mass shooting. Armed SRO and police in schools reduce that. |
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June 9, 2013, 02:18 PM | #34 |
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SROs & "good guys with guns".....
Many US schools & campuses already have security officers, guards or "school resource officers".
SROs have been a growing trend since the late 1970s. They don't have to "look for work" in many public schools. Drugs, gangs, sex crimes, thefts, assaults, abductions/family court issues, accidents/first responder events can fill up a shift. I highly doubt anyone is standing around with a gun for 8 to 10 hours a day waiting for something to go wrong. There is merit to the "good guys with guns" concept but arming janitors or hiring armed guards isn't the best concept for school security IMO. |
June 10, 2013, 11:55 AM | #35 |
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There is no single factor which can prevent ALL school attacks, 100%. Schools are not bank vaults. They are not prisons, and they are not fortresses. It is the unfortunate state of our society that a number of its citizens are not merely highly disturbed with a violent predisposition, but also clever, resourceful and highly determined.
And let's say, for argument's sake, that somehow we had obtain 100% security at our schools. That STILL won't prevent these murderers from obtaining access to them - think of all the places children readily congregate - athletic events, shopping malls, movie theaters, etc. etc. We live in a public society and have to acknowledge that there simply is no guarantee of physical safety anywhere on earth. |
June 10, 2013, 04:55 PM | #36 |
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Sidwell Friends School does
It's where the uber elite like Sasha and Melia go to school. The school has a permanent contingent of armed guards in addition to whatever detail the Secret Service provides for the President's children. Pretty certain it hasn't had any shootings yet.
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June 10, 2013, 06:36 PM | #37 |
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Another point...
As many unstable or EDPs(emotionally distrurbed persons) start to incite sworn LE officers into "suicide by cop" events, more armed guards or licensed security personnel may encounter unstable or intoxicated subjects.
These subjects may see a armed security guard or patrol officer & start shooting. James Yeager, the TN area tactics instructor who was a recent scandal about his concealed license, had a Youtube clip about active shooters. He said most EDPs or active shooters will kill themselves when challenged or confronted by uniformed first responders. While this may occur often, don't rely on it always happening in a lethal force event. I can recall two incidents where a spree shooter fled then surrendered when encountered by SWAT/LE units. School security programs need to be detailed & training should be in-depth. |
June 10, 2013, 08:35 PM | #38 | |
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Quote:
That many eventually commit suicide isn't a surprise. Most never had intent to go to prison.
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