Hi-Points and that famous zinc alloy slide...

[1inthechamber]

If you send any other gun in for service repair, you have to pay shipping PLUS pay for the parts, maybe labor. I've also been reading warranties and most are limited, meaning some parts breakage aren't even covered by warranty. With Hi-Point, they'll fix any problem for free but you have to pay shipping. I still don't see a problem here.

[JR47]

Jack, if you had gotten as far as the second link, you might have been able to reference the military reports filed for the incidents. The first poster has these in his references. I didn't think that you'd be that astute, so I included the second link. I guess it was too much of a good thing?

I'd like to point out that, somehow, you've become the focal point of the majority of High Point failures found in lo these 7-8 pages. You have offered no more than anecdotal information. This would, then, place you in the same forum as those you disparage.

As far as being outdated,the information is, but not as far as you make it out to be. You rant on about the High Point, but ridicule anyone who points out that the vaunted beretta had it's share of teething problems. They listed 12 slide failures, and an unnamed number of locking block failures. You've found fewer than that number of High Point arms, but flounder about, shrieking that they will all fail. I guess "that's different," eh? Hardly.

I find it distressing that you can blindly dismiss one writer's articles while accepting the word of a blogger. It simply makes zero sense, unless you only accept information that agrees with your point of view.

As for the blather about the FBI, it pretty much matches your usual "if I can't refute it, I'll just insult it" tripe. You are VERY predictable on that.

"Have you ever seen a hi point that made it to 30,000 rounds?
I haven't. ( I have handled and shot Berettas with more than that number of rounds through them).
But if a FORGED STEEL slide can fail (and they do. I have seen it in Colts after all) then why would anybody beleive that an investment cast pot metal slide would make it to 20,000-30,000 rounds?"

Yawn. In this whole discussion, NOBODY said that it would. Hello? Anybody home?

"Look around on Syd's site".

Look around on Speirs site........ I'm surprised that someone who has been involved in shooting these past 20+ years, as you say you have, missed the man. He wrote literally as much as Dave Arnold, Chuck Taylor, and Bill Jordan in the same gun rags.

As for Lt. Marcinko, even in 1968, he was more interested in Marcinko, and Marcinko's way, than in anything in real life. By the way, in his current books, the group uses Sigs.

" I am guessing you forgot about the broken firing pin problem with the orignal Ruger P-85s which occassioned a recall?"

I'm guessing that you're talking about someone else, as it wasn't my quote? Besides, that had all been dealt with by then, right? Now, if it was OK to quietly correct the failing slides and locking blocks of the 92, it would seem equally likely that the firing pin problem could have been treated the same.

"The Beretta is better than most in my educated opinion. If it weren't, I would own three SIGS or Glocks instead of no Sigs and one Glock."

Now that is something that we should all heed? You just stated the crux of your ENTIRE diatribe there, it's YOUR OPINION, it's a shame that you can't let it be just that.

As far as Beretta and S. Africa, it would appear that the stink raised in the international media when S. Africa sported the new Beretta pistol escaped you? Beretta engineers "vacationed" in Johannesburg some months prior to this. You'll also note that Beretta failed to pursue international copyright protections against S. Africa. Beretta has a long-standing policy of restricting patent infringements.

" Thats because Chairborn Rangers continue to claim it has a low service life."

Interesting. I'll assume that you have some proof of that? I cannot find anyone in these threads who claim the Beretta 92 has a diminished life expectancy. It's you, however, who makes wild claims about the High Point, without any of the links to support you. Sounds like a true REMF, eh?

"The United States went with the Beretta vs. the Sig for the slimmest of reasons."
Yeah, it won two different military selection tests, just like it beat out other competitors in open testing among law enforcement agencies around the same time, LOL...
Notice that in the XM10 tests (the second batch of tests AFTER the M9 was chosen in the original PDW XM9 tests, not only did the Beretta win, beating out even the Ruger P-85, it won despite the fact that ORDNANCE GRADE Berettas were picked out of lots allready in military supply depots to test against hand built, cherry picked samples from Sig, Smith and Ruger and other makers...."

OK, so the fact that the SIG had EXACTLY the same scores as the Beretta, but was less than $1.00 more per unit isn't the "slimmest of margins"? You'll also notice the fact that, immediately after fielding the Beretta, the military let large orders for Sigs. The substitute standard weapon, it appears, fit most soldiers hands better. Ooops, I'll guess that this was overlooked in the testing?

Are you really going to make a case for the "other" weapons being "special" while the Beretta wasn't? Get a life. Unless you think that the others in your service are all too stupid to breathe on their own, that's a totally ludicrous comment, even for you.

The purchase of 5000 Rugers was by the Army Tank Command. The purchase of several thousand S&W pistols came out to arm a client state.

The SEALS issue weapon is currently the Sig P226. That's for all Six TEAMS. They are, however, able to catalog a number of special weapons for specific purposes. This could be your 686, Tok, Mak, etc. Unlike the Army SF, the SEAL Teams have always accessed other weapons systems more easily. They are also the equal of Delta in rounds fired, like the SAS. The Navy wasn't concerned about the "propriety" of Army testing, having experienced it over the decades. They, having a larger proportion of smaller-statured individuals, recognized early on the political aspects of the test, and were quite satisfied with the SIG being available. There isn't a thing wrong with the SIG, and hasn't been. That's what the Navy was thinking. No locking block failures there. Frames seem pretty good, even with supressors and the same "overly high pressure" ammo that ate the larger Beretta. Hmmmm.

"Those in the know (which would include yours truly) can attest the only major problems with the B-92 series of guns is that they are awfully big and bulky for piddlin' 9s, the aftermarket mags from checkmate are no good for service use."

Oh, PLEASE!!!! I had to turn my speakers down, your horn was honking so loudly. Little proof, please. By the way, I believe that the size of the B-92 has been mentioned a number of times already. If that's all it takes to be "in the know", a ruler would have sufficed for the testing.

"For the sake of linear thought however, the comparison should be to contest Hi Points with the nearest similar design intended for the same market — which would be Lorcin, Bryco and Jennings arms, not Berettas, Sigs or Glocks."

AND, WHO would be the person who first brought the Beretta into the thread for comparason????? Oh, wait, that would have been YOU!

Beyond some vague references to a military career, and some obvious horn honking, you have presented nothing but anecdotal evidence to this Board about the High Point Firearms. Being snide and obnoxious with those who disagree, isn't the mark of knowledge. Bringing forth facts to back up your opinion, admitted to repeatedly in this last diatribe, would be.

Tell you what I'm going to do. There are several gunshops nearby. I'm willing to ask to inspect as many different High Points as they will let me for obvious defects. I will report back here, or via PM to you, my findings. I will then buy a High Point, and shoot it until something fails. This may take a while, as I do have a life, but I'll see what happens. How's that? Would that end this? Or at least put it on hold until I can see what happens?

For those of us who tire of the $40.00 to return a gun. Ask your selling FFL to send it back via USPS Registered Mail. Pay him to do that as a Warranty Return. It won't cost him a penney that way. Registered Mail via FFL is legal, and considerably more secure than UPS or Fedex Overnight. It's cost is based on the value of the object. I have used that numerous times to obtain warranty work on my S&W pistols, and on long guns.

[sltintexas]

I agree that my hi point will not last forever... but I went out shooting again last night, no issues with either my 9mm carbine or my 380! gotta love the price tag on them.

[Handy]

The problem here is that the "free repair" is being billed as the cure all that makes breakage not a concern. It isn't free. Two or three repairs and you could have bougt a new Hipoint.


I would rather have a gun that would never require service of anykind, warranty or not.


As for the cost of repair of other guns, I've only had one repair. It was an HK, I was not the original owner, and they replaced the part and installed it for free. And HK is supposed to be have "bad" customer service. So that repair was no more than Hipoint service would have cost.

[Te Anau]

I am guessing you forgot about the broken firing pin problem with the orignal Ruger P-85s which occassioned a recall?

Ruger P series guns have been greatly refined over the years and to imply that a P85 is the same as a KP-95D isnt fair.Thats like saying a first year Sigma is the same as my SW9VE and it isnt.
And by the way,anybody here who isnt a friend of their FFL and is paying $40.00 to ship a gun back to whoever for repairs is crazy.My FFL will let me take a copy of his license to the post office and mail back a gun for repair if needed at a very reasonable cost.Ive only done it twice (not for my Hi-Point!) and even asked the postal clerk if she was cool with it.She said that the FFL license is all she needs to see.

[Mikeyboy]

Wow , I am still amazed at the concept that a Glock will , never , ever, need a repair and will outlive me...that is just so amazing. So the Glock gunsmith is like the maytag repairman..wow. If only everything was made out of Glock polymer.

[JR47]

Handy, I don't believe that the Free Replacement is being touted as the cure-all for anything. It also, with using a little common sense, won't cost $40 per instance. Maybe $10.00, if you've an inflated opinion of the value of a weapon that didn't cost over $200 to start with.

It is refreshing, however, to have a company publish the Warranty as Lifetime, no matter how many previous owners it's had.

I'm glad that you've only had a problem with a single weapon in your life. Most of those who buy weapons don't have that privilige. I have had a new S&W, N-frame revolver fail at the first round. I have had K-frame S&W .357 revolvers develop forcing cone cracks after as few as 1000 rounds of .357 Mag ammo. I returned a Taurus Model 85 that I had shot loose with +p and +P+ ammo, several thousand rounds, that they rebuilt. S&W also rebuilt a Model 39 for me that had a cracked frame. I had a Colt Series 80 Government Model that went in for a failed firing-pin safety mechanism after fewer than 100 rounds.

I've also sent a few rifles from Weatherby, Winchester, and SIG-Hammerli back for Warranty work.

I'm an inveterate collector, holding a C&R license, and held a Maryland Collector's License, freeing me from many of that states ludicrous purchasing restrictions. I have a large accumulation of weapons. In doing so, I have seen that nobody, not even Glock Perfection, approaches much better than 90%.

[Handy]

Mikeyboy,

What is so hard about the concept that a well built gun may well never break? It's a firearm, not a computer. People are shooting 100 year old Lugers, Mausers and S&Ws all the time. Many 1911s, Sig 210s and Glocks are known to have gone over 100,000 rounds without major breakages.

Pistols are very simple machines with very few parts. Like bicycles, pocket knives and hand tools, they are indeed built to take a lifetime of use if cared for.

Please explain what you're getting at.

[Javelin Man]

I've only had to ship one gun back in all my years: my .25 Lorcin fell apart in my wife's hands. I don't remember what shipping was, just that it was cheap through UPS back in1992-or so. My Ruger, S&W, Hi-Points, etc, haven't had to be shipped out. I agree that it is best not to use the warranty and any gun that needs to be shipped back more than twice should be replaced with a new one. If we can agree that no gun gets shipped more than twice, and you use your local dealer's FFL, you shouldn't rack up more than $20 everon a gun.

Handy, you are correct in we should expect our guns to last a lifetime without any parts breaking expect maybe springs wearing out and other wear parts.

I like a gun maker that stands behind their work lifetime, unconditionally. Hi-point does that.

Shoot well.

[barnetmill]

Handy wrote: "What is so hard about the concept that a well built gun may well never break? It's a firearm, not a computer. People are shooting 100 year old Lugers, Mausers and S&Ws all the time. Many 1911s, Sig 210s and Glocks are known to have gone over 100,000 rounds without major breakages."

I know that some guns appear to last for ever. I often shoot rebarreled military rifles-mauser and garand. The better made guns are likely to last longer, but the more it is used, the more likely it will break. You just cannot predict when or if that will happen.

But I think we can agree that the Hi-Points will not last forever without repair.
The last two guns that I brought were used (S&W 9mm VE and Hi-Point Carbine 9mm). I test fired both of them prior to the purchase. Since I paid little for them and 9 mm ammo is cheap its a win win and if & when they break I may or may not get them repaired.

[shecky]

After all this nonsense, I can't see why I shouldn't buy a Hi Point just for the hell of it. I currently don't own a 9mm, maybe I'll go for that one. Anyone know of a dealer in L.A. that sells them?

[1inthechamber]

You can find a dealer in your area through their website at www.mkssupply.com

I took my C9 out today and with my gun, it's very picky. I just confirmed it by shooting 100 rounds of CCI Blazer Brass instead of Winchester. So far I've had better performance using CCI stuff. I did 2 intentional 'limp wrist' and they didn't jam like WWB. Alot cleaner too. I'll be shooting CCI from now on.

[sltintexas]

I have found the dealer listing on the mkssupply website to be unreliable. None of the ones in my area stocked hi points. I have seen many at gun shows in my area and they had better prices to boot.

[CajunBass]

I asked my local dealer about ordering me one the other day, and he told me he would, but suggested I look at the next gun show. I said he couldn't beat the price I'd find there.

[shecky]

Unfortunately, gunshows are something of a rarity here. Last one I went to (several years ago) was pathetic, more like a general flea market/craft bazaar.

Yes, the dealer list is out of date. The closest listed stores to me either don't carry them or are out of business. There is a local chain, Turners, that sells them, and frequently offers them for sale... at ten bucks above factory list.

[1inthechamber]

The dealer locator on the site was dead on where I live. It was the only place listed and the only place in town that sells it.

[Mikeyboy]

Handy, not to bash Glocks while everyone is trying to bash hi-points, but quite frankly I feel Glock are overpriced and should not be in the same league as Sig, Beretta, H&K yet it always is. Heck, sights on police service Glocks get holster wear, the occasional case failures, and other issue plague Glocks yet people put them in the same league as other high end handguns. I'm not trying to "flame on" Glock owners, if the price was right, I would buy a Glock in a heartbeat, but price does not always equal quality. If Glock sold for less than $200 new we would be having this conversation about Glocks, and I would be defending glocks as a good handgun for the money, while others would call them plastic pieces of junk. I see your point that a well made all metal handgun could last 100 years without needing repair, but that may include some well made yet cheaply priced handguns. There were some cheaply priced guns made in the early 1900's out there that stood the test of time. My family has a few weapons that are over 20 years old and guess what some high quality thing break and need repair. You cannot expect a Rolls Royce to last longer than other cars, eventually even a Rolls Royce will have mechinical problems. Guns are like cars. All of them should at least start. Glock are Fords. A Taurus PT-92 is a Toyota and a Beretta 92f is a Lexus, H&K let say is a Mercedes. There are some real junkie guns out there that I would put in the Yugo catagory...but hi-point...I would say it is a Kia...a cheap decent car that will get you to point A to point B.

Is there absolutely no chance that you will get a lemon if you buy a Mercedes? No, but honestly you are less likely to have a problem. If you buy a Kia and you take care of it, will it last you a while? Probably.

Some people can afford H&K and other high end weapons and some cannot. People on a tighter budget try to get the best thing they can afford. Honestly if I bought a hi-point it would be a range gun and not my primary defense weapon because I own a lot of guns that are better quality, but telling someone making $6 an hour that he should hold out for a $1000 well made gun instead of getting decent hi-point for under $200 is crazy. Its the whole high caliber thing all over again, you make due with what you have and what your good shooting with. No one has yet to prove to me that a Hi-point cannot fire a round and hit a target consistantly, that is a guns primary function, everything else is just window dressing.

[Handy]

Mikey,

I don't disagree with you. I'm a big critic of Glock pistol's engineering and pricing. BUT, a 9mm G17 (the original design) is almost completely trouble free. Buy a well used one for $300, put a NY1 trigger in it and replace the springs yearly, and it would probably NEVER do anything unpredicatble in hundreds of thousands of rounds. They work very well and wear almost not at all.

As for pricing, I think the much better designed USP is also overpriced by half. A mainly plastic framed gun cost about half what a metal one does to produce - a 4" GIJoe is more difficult to produce than a USP frame, and out of the same stuff.


A Hipoint isn't like a Kia, it's more like a gasoline powered skateboard.

[Jack Malloy]

>>>If you send any other gun in for service repair, you have to pay shipping PLUS pay for the parts, maybe labor. I've also been reading warranties and most are limited, meaning some parts breakage aren't even covered by warranty. With Hi-Point, they'll fix any problem for free but you have to pay shipping. I still don't see a problem here.
<<<<

What planet are you living on?

In all my years of shooting, I have had to send a total of one gun back to the factory. It cost about $10 bucks for shipping but that was back BEFORE UPS decided that they would only ship firearms via overnight delivery only and increased the rate dramatically.
Springfield Armoury fixed the problem and polished the gun up. They didn't charge me anything, period.
A friend shipped off a rusted out Ruger once for a minor upgrade (the safety system on a used gun) and not only did they do the upgrade, they refinished and reblued the gun at no cost to him, other of course, than the shipping.

I might note that Taurus lifetime warranty is for the life of the GUN itself, not the owner, meaning that you can buy a used Taurus and it is still covered by their warranty.
Many makers these days offer limited lifetime warranties.

•••
If your lorcin broke, pray tell, what was it made out of? Zamak pot metal maybe?
LOL....
••••
Guns are like cars...The Hi Point is a Yugo.

••••
Do I think Glocks and HKs are overpriced? Yeah, they are injection moulded plastic for crying out loud. One reason Glock gets so many LE sales is that it underbids other makers. They underbid other makers thanks to the popularity of their civillian sales...which come about because many people see cops carrying them. If I told you what a Glock can cost a typical department, you would probably call me a liar.
I bought a USP when they were new and were "competitively" priced with other makes and thought it was a bit steep back then. The price they are asking now is just science fiction.....
•••
>>>After all this nonsense, I can't see why I shouldn't buy a Hi Point just for the hell of it.<<<
How about four to eight jams in 100 rounds? That your idea of shooting pleasure? See posting from hi point fan on that one....

•••
>>>As far as being outdated,the information is, but not as far as you make it out to be. You rant on about the High Point, but ridicule anyone who points out that the vaunted beretta had it's share of teething problems. They listed 12 slide failures, and an unnamed number of locking block failures. You've found fewer than that number of High Point arms, but flounder about, shrieking that they will all fail. I guess "that's different," eh? Hardly.<<<

Lets see, 12 failures out of how many hundreds of thousands of guns? Over the years I have owned or shot more Berettas (and brownings) than I have even SEEN Hi Points. And yet, low and behold, I have never seen a jamming and breakage prone Beretta or Browning. And I have yet to see a reliable Hi Point or one not breakage prone.
The statistical probabilities there are flat out astounding when you stop and think about it.
In one day, I saw about oh, 50 berettas put away a few thousands of rounds of ammo. No jams. No breakages. Compare that to the HPs, which I have never seen put away close to 1000 rounds of ammo without choking or falling apart.....

••••
>>>also, with using a little common sense, won't cost $40 per instance. Maybe $10.00,<<<
What, you mean by telling a lie and taking the chance of getting caught if they find out that the box with your broken gun in it is not Machine Parts? LOL.... Lets see. A high point champion is apparently recommending telling a fib. What does this tell us?
UPS won't ship guns at the old rates any more, folks. Unless something has changed, I don't think Fed Ex will ship them at all.....

•••
<<<I'm guessing that you're talking about someone else, as it wasn't my quote? Besides, that had all been dealt with by then, right?<<<

When you see this - •••• it means that I have gone from one post to another in the sake of brevity instead of making two or three posts....

•••
>>>The substitute standard weapon, it appears, fit most soldiers hands better. Ooops, I'll guess that this was overlooked in the testing?
<<<

As was pointed out in simple english the M-11 was for a SMALLER size gun than the full size service pistol. Nother example of reading comprehension failure?

•••
>>>Are you really going to make a case for the "other" weapons being "special" while the Beretta wasn't? Get a life. Unless you think that the others in your service are all too stupid to breathe on their own, that's a totally ludicrous comment, even for you. >>>

There is a ludicrous comment champ here, but he ain't me....What I stated is the truth and it can be verified IN PRINT (Mass Ayoob, American Handgunner). The second round of testing the M-9s selected utilized rack grade weapons that were allready in the arsenal against the competitions hand selected examples and it STILL won out. Thats the facts, and I will take facts over your unverified and ignorant opinions and fantasies any day of the week.
The initial cost comparisons between Sig and Beretta were from the ORIGINAL PDW MX-9 tests. You seem unaware of that. The cost difference basically got down to spare parts, not the guns themselves. I used to have a copy of that thick, thick document and I read the whole thing. Did you?

••••
>>>There isn't a thing wrong with the SIG, and hasn't been. That's what the Navy was thinking. No locking block failures there. Frames seem pretty good, <<<<

Despite the fact that frames are notorius for cracking? Despite the fact that the old two peice stamped and welded slide with pinned in breech block of the original 229 was replaced by a solid one peice slide YEARS LATER? LOL....Do I even have to mention the original 229s corrossion resistance issues? (rust was one thing that also knocked the old Walther p-88 in those trials, by the way. Am I right in guessing here that you never read them?).

>=>=>=it would appear that the stink raised in the international media when S. Africa sported the new Beretta pistol <=<=<=

Since when has the international media even known what a Beretta looked like? These are the same guys who can't tell that a Walther p-99 is any different than a GLock and can't tell the difference between a Mac 10 and an Uzi. Now you expect us to beleive they know what they are talking about when it comes to other pistols? What planet are you from, by the way? Is Dean Speir really a famous gunwriter there? Why are there no books by him on that three foot wide shelf at my house with books from the turn of the century to last year on handguns and shooting?He's famous, right? The only shooting Deans on my shelf are Dean Grennell and the dean of American gunwriters Elmer Keith.......

>>>AND, WHO would be the person who first brought the Beretta into the thread for comparason????? Oh, wait, that would have been YOU!
<<<
Yes, and if you had any reading comprehension capabilities you could understand what I meant when I stated in simple English that I chose the Beretta in the value per money per rounds fired argument specifically becuase on internet forums chairborn ranger types claim its a fragile weapon. Go back and look. Trust me, its there. Or is english not the first langauge on the planet DeanSpeirypton?

>>>Beyond some vague references to a military career,<<<

Once again, I have to ask about your reading comprehension capabilities, friend. I have never ever been IN the military. I have never made any claims to be IN the military or former military. If anybody has ever pretended to be in the military or is a Rear Echelon MOFO it sure ain't me.
Either you can't read, can't understand what you read, or are oblivious to what people are saying, Junior Forty Seven, so which one is it?
I AM NO SOLDIER. My brothers were, but not me. My references to in the field experience comes from being a former crime scene photographer at DRUG RAIDS, homicides and other law enforcement related activities. I am not a cop either. But,I have gone through a lot of weapons training WITH law enforcement agencies due to the nature of that job (crime photographer).
I got to go through revolver to auto transition training back in the 80s with an urban department and just a few years ago, I got to go through the high tech shoot- dont shoot training when a prosecutors office got a grant to train local LE agencies on the travelling 18 wheeler that had the computerized screens set up and guns that fired beams from lasers.
I have fired hundreds of weapons and more than likely hundreds of thousands of rounds over the past decade alone. I am a gunfight survivor too. Thats why I take firearms seriously and study them, and thats why I base my opinions on FACTS not wishful thinking or opinions. I have been over the hill and seen the elephant and survived the encounter. Things like that give you a perspective that the armchair theorists sometimes don't comprehend or care about.
Which is why when somebody asks me about things like "whats the best combat weapon" I tell them that high capacity tactical guns and the like sell newstand magazines, but something like a five shot j frame that you can carry everywhere and pull and shoot fast is actually more practical.

>>> I will then buy a High Point, and shoot it until something fails. This may take a while,<<<

Yes, especially if you have to go through a couple of guns to even get one that fires. The last two I examined wouldnt even function. I thought about buying one in .380 and doing the same thing (shoot to destruction) as you can often pick them up around here for $50, which is roughly the cost of a tank of gas now if you drive a truck.....
When somebody I knew bought one and brought it over to shoot and it would not even fire, I figured, "what's the use?"

[FirstFreedom]

Good to see that Jack doesn't give up!

[Handy]

Jack, I haven't been reading these novellas you've been posting, but I did notice that they are full of crap.

Sig didn't change the slides due to strength problems, for instance, which is why the 220 and 228 are STILL stamped. They did it for another reason, which I'd like you to figure out.


I think you're the wrong person to be arguing this stuff. You're really not up on the ins and outs of the examples you're citing, making this whole thing make you look even sillier than those who champion the Taco Bell of firearms.

[JR47]

Mr. Malloy, other than flawed reading comprehension, do you bring anything but vitriol to the discussion? The Sig P226 wasn't the winner of a second competition, it was the original competitor, along with the B92. What exactly has the P229, a different weapon, have to do with the P226?

Do you have any idea of the production numbers of High Point weapons? They may well rival the production of the Beretta pistol, as you denigrate ALL High Points.

If you read what was said, and you didn't, the shipping of a Pistol, by an FFL, is legal. Registered Mail is based on the value of the article shipped. Try calling the Post Office, or going to the Postal Web Site for REAL Info prior to blatantly misinforming people next time.

As for Mr. Spier and your library, so what? Do you have Mr. Nonte, or T. Whelan? At which point did you become the literary critic for this forum?

As far as your history with weapons goes. All well and good. You have been over the hill, and seen the elephant, as you say. That means that you've been engaged in lethal combat. Once is certainly more than most real LEOs see during their career. Yet, you have RECEIVED instruction, not taught or developed. Most CS Photographers are unarmed employees, whose job is to arrive after the scene is secure. Well after. I worked for several years as a SWAT-Medic, during the formative years. I was unarmed, and spent some time ducking, until someone figured out that the liability for non-sworn Team Members was huge. I don't regard that as having given me any input into firearms training, design, or handling. Only in the use of cover and movement. Reading and practicing are, I'll give you, fair enough experience to speak on weapons that you've used personally. It doesn't allow you to become an expert on systems that you've not used. The fastest way in which to discredit an expert's testimony is to ask for personal experience with the weapon, and to ask for documentation of the problems or abilities testified to. You don't even know how many High Point weapons have been sold, but maunder on about the thousands of Berettas......

One of the flaws that you exhibit, small as it may be, is that you believe that any weapons failure involving the High Point arm is the failure of the design and construction. Any other weapons system, and you'll allow for operator error, or ammunition problems. Before you go off, you've never once alluded to any failure that wasn't related to the construction of the High Point.

I believe that your vaunted history of real world input just drew to a close, thank you, and good night. Hmmmm......can you picture that?

[1inthechamber]

Does anyone else read Jack's entire posts?? Seems like it would take me days to finish.

Honestly, I could give a **** what Jack says and thinks about Hi-Points at this point. His replies are long and pretty much the same. It's like a broken record. Yes my Hi-Point has jammed, tell me one person in the world that shoots guns that hasn't had a gun jam? The same arguments are being said over and over again. So lets make a list of things that's been covered.

1. Zamak/Zinc Alloy, not the best material in the world but works fine on Hi-Points
2. They're cheap/affordable/inexpensive
3. The gun won't fall apart
4. The gun will last more than 4 boxes of ammo
5. The slide won't crack/fall off
6. LE doesn't issue these weapons
7. Hi-Points are NOT in the same category as Glock, Beretta, etc.
8. The last 2 that Jack 'handled' wouldn't function
9. The S&W Sigma .380 had a Zamak slide and only had a life expectancy of 3,500 rounds
10. Hi-Point owners like their Hi-Point

Please add to the list, I know I forgot some.

Jack, no offense, but crime scene photographers don't have the same immediate danger as police officers. Just because you had training doesn't give you first hand experience in tense situations other than "should I take a picture of that?"

You might of gotten paid alot for your services and that's why YOU can afford better guns, but don't ever look down on anyone who can only afford a Hi-Point. To people like us, it's the best gun in the world regardless of what you stuck up 'gun snobs' think. I do get pissed off when someone says "get a better gun". You don't see me telling you to get a better wife, do you?

If you feel so confident that a Hi-Point won't work, why don't you ask someone to chamber in 1 round in a Hi-Point and have them point it at you and then pull the trigger. Will you still be confident enough that the gun will break apart and fail like the last 2 you've handled?

The point I'm getting at is, I have a Hi-Point, I like it, I have fun shooting it, if you don't like it, don't waste your time talking **** about it.

[JR47]

Oh......and Jack, there's an old, now retired, Prince George's County Police Officer, who is a multiple gunfight survivor, and an early competitor during Mr. Ayoob's junior days. He laughs at the stories Mr. Ayoob regales us with in his articles about his own history as an LEO. Seems he knew the junior officer back then, and says that his experiences have certainly "improved with time".

Mr. Ayoob writes articles that are quite good, but leaves much open to one's particular slant on the products in question. If he is being used for information, or proof, it would be good to see a little documentation. I have a large number of American Handgunner issues, could you aim me in the correct area?

I've gone over my bookshelf about guns. It appears to primarily consist of technical tomes. Kuhnhausen, Hatcher, Fackler, Marshall & Sanow, Miller, w.w. Greener, J.B. Woods, C. Reisch, F. Iannamico, T.W. Lapin, N. Schwing, I. Hogg, J. Marchington, T. Whelan, G. Nonte, Wm. Fairburn, A. B. Zhuk, Kalashnikov, Jane's of assorted types, assorted reloading manuals, assorted gunsmithing manuals, and a large assortment of military Field Manuals dedicated exclusively to past and present firearms. I also have volumes of the Defense Journal, and various Naval Proceedings. It only makes me well read. Current magazines, and past, are relegated to the "entertainment" catagory, as they often lack any documentation.

You remind me of a vicious Dr. Martin Topper M.D. clone. Dr. Topper isn't a combat expert, but HE admits it. He deals mostly with hunting, and target shooting topics. He states his case simply, documents presented "knowledge", and lets the readers read. You'll find him in Gun World, and other gunzines. You could, with only a little tweaking, enjoy a career as a writer. Here, however, the subject of the High Point, and now the Beretta, has left you twisting in the proverbial wind. That's not a pretty picture, either.

[Te Anau]

If you ship it back 10 times to fire 30,000 rounds through it, you are out $400 in shipping AND the initial purchase price of $139.

The last gun I shipped back,cost me a little over $7.00