Bullets, powders for .308 bolt gun?

AEM · April 16, 2001, 03:39 PM

I've been out of reloading for a long time, and all my manuals are many years old. I want to start loading 150g spitzers and the Sierra 168g match BTHP for my Ruger 77MkII with 22" sporter weight barrel, and maybe for my M1A as well(I say maybe for the M1A because I figure that will involve some complications like a small base sizing die, special attention to bullet pull, etc. When I'm ready for that step I'll post again).

I want accuracy and readily available components at reasonable cost. I don't mind taking a little extra care with case prep, measuring, etc. for accuracy's sake, but I don't want to depend on components which are super expensive or hard to find. Finally, I'd like to settle on components which will be usable for the M1A as well so I don't have stock too many varieties of bullets, powder, etc.

Any suggestions will be much appreciated.

Poodleshooter · April 16, 2001, 03:45 PM

IMR 4064, Accurate Arms 2520, Winchester 748, Hodgdon Ball C-2 are all good propellants. If you want military pull down powder, go with WCC-846. You seem to have decided on your bullets. I'd go with http://www.wideners.com or http://www.midwayusa.com for your supplies.

AEM · April 16, 2001, 03:55 PM

Thanks Poodleshooter!

I do want to try the 168 Sierra, just because it seems to the "standard" for accuracy. I've promised myself that if I get to where I can shoot the Ruger as well as it can be shot, I'll treat myself to a heavy barreled Rem. 700 with all the toys. The 168 g. Sierra seems to be "the" bullet with the precision crowd.

For hunting (up to and including deer) and general purposes, I think 150 grains is the appropriate weight, but I haven't experimented enough to have a preferred brand or style. I am open to any bullet suggestions, but I realize that it usually comes down to what shoots best in my rifle.

HandloaderJohn · April 16, 2001, 06:36 PM

I use the AA 2550 for my gas and bolt 308s with 168s and 165s, it flows real nice through the powder unit and gives good accuracy.
Good luck, hope this helps.

labgrade · April 16, 2001, 08:48 PM

I'm using 49.0 grs of IMR 4350 over a 165 Nosler Ballistic tip, R-P brass, CCI 200 primers at 2.820" OAL. Brass all prep'd for flash/primer holes, trimmed, chamfer'd & deburred.

This for a Rem M7, 18.5" bbl .308 Win - never chrono'd but suspect right at about 2400+ fps

Not the Sierra 168 (a wonderful bullet, BTW) but this load in mine does all but one-hole groups at 100 yds.

I don't really reload for anything anymore than isn't at least dual-use for hunting applications. The Nosler BT is a very tough bullet to beat for working up accurate loads but a bit pricey ..... it does have a very nice BC for long range applications as well.

'Nother load for larger game applications if you'd care to e-mail .....

(edited) & BTW, all "never believe anything you haven't worked up for in your rifle & start at 10% below max, etc. .... all disclaimers apply ...

AEM · April 17, 2001, 09:24 AM

Thanks guys, this is good stuff. I'm looking forward to reloading again. I've actually started, on a small scale. I don't have dies yet for the .308 (thinking of getting the Redding S set, with the collet to control neck diameter), but I remembered picking up a Lyman 310 tong tool for 30'06 about 20 years ago. I got it on sale and put it away without ever using it. I dug it out and found that I could adjust it to fit the shorter .308 case. I spent an enjoyable couple of hours prepping, neck sizing and priming some cases, and adjusting the seating die for some 165g. Sierras I had on hand.

Sometimes it's good to get back to the basics.

Bogie · April 17, 2001, 10:10 AM

DO NOT load the slower powders, such as 4350, if you're going to be using the rounds in a semi-auto - The pressure curve is different, and it tears up the mechanism... Fine for a bolt gun...

I like 4895 and 165 gr. Ballistic Tips, or 4350 and 180 grainers...

Dave P · April 17, 2001, 02:45 PM

I use the the same dies for bolt and semi-auto. No small base dies needed for my M1a. I do FL resize for the M1A, tho.

I buy powder for the M1A, so all my components are interchangable (except brass) between rifle types.

Have Fun!

AEM · April 17, 2001, 03:05 PM

This is off the original topic, but since ya'll are being so helpful I'll ask anyway. I bought a case of CAVIM (Argentine) ammo for the M1A and it functions fine. I fired a couple of rounds in my Ruger 77, though, and could hardly open the bolt.

I never saw any signs of high pressure with this ammo when firing it through the M1A, and I can't imagine that it is loaded too hot for a Ruger 77. I wonder if the case diameter is undersized for automatic or semi-automatic weapons, and that the relatively excessive expansion is what tied up the bolt. I need to measure the case head and compare the CAVIM to commercial ammo, I guess.

Any idea what caused the hard extraction?

HandloaderJohn · April 17, 2001, 06:24 PM

Cavim, hum, well, I have shot it from my M1A and 308 Garand, no probs, real hot stuff,never tried it in the bolt actions, it is not real accurate ,but goes bang everytime but for 168 bucks a thousand, what the heck.
I had bad luck reloading the Cavim brass, wants to stick sometimes, so I have stopped reloading it, I just load the stuff made north of the Rio Grande.

[Edited by HandloaderJohn on 04-17-2001 at 08:25 PM]

AEM · April 18, 2001, 01:30 PM

John, is CAVIM significantly hotter than other military 7.62 NATO? If it made the bolt hard to lift on my Ruger because of high pressure, then I don't think I should be shooting it in my M1A, right?

Poodleshooter · April 18, 2001, 03:03 PM

AEM, I have a KM77MkII in .308 also. I find that several varieties of 7.62 are hard to extract. Hirtenberger is darn near impossible to open the bolt on. Still, I think that the ammo is made for use in FAL's and G-3's so it can't be all that bad in the M1-A. It probably just uses a faster powder like 4895 or Win748 that develops high velocity but at higher pressure than the aforementioned loads with slow burning 4350. I don't think it's the overall pressure that breaks op rods, but more the fact that the pressure is maintained longer in the barrel.

AEM · April 18, 2001, 03:11 PM

I'm just wondering if I should keep shooting the Cavim in my M1A, or if it will wear it out prematurely.

Thanks to all for your suggestions and advice.

Jack Straw · April 18, 2001, 03:18 PM

I like Winchester 748 and IMR 4064. My MkII gives slightly better groups with the 4064 and Sierra 165gr GameKings.

Jack

HandloaderJohn · April 18, 2001, 06:47 PM

AEM, who knows? I don't think you should worry about it, after all, they are a strong weapon, you would have to do a lot of shooting to wear the M1A out.

[Edited by HandloaderJohn on 04-18-2001 at 09:15 PM]

Troy · April 18, 2001, 09:18 PM

Lots of shooters have had problems with the Cavim, due to the excessive asphault bullet sealant gumming up their chambers. This is especially a problem with the HK fluted chambers. Most FALs and M1As shoot it fine, though.

Remember: your Ruger has a tighter "match" chamber, where the M1A probably has a larger "military" chamber. A tight chamber can allow a gun to shoot better, but it can also generate higher pressures, especially if there is less freebore.

-Troy

April 16, 2001, 03:55 PM	#3
AEM Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 1999 Posts: 171	Man, that was fast! Thanks Poodleshooter! I do want to try the 168 Sierra, just because it seems to the "standard" for accuracy. I've promised myself that if I get to where I can shoot the Ruger as well as it can be shot, I'll treat myself to a heavy barreled Rem. 700 with all the toys. The 168 g. Sierra seems to be "the" bullet with the precision crowd. For hunting (up to and including deer) and general purposes, I think 150 grains is the appropriate weight, but I haven't experimented enough to have a preferred brand or style. I am open to any bullet suggestions, but I realize that it usually comes down to what shoots best in my rifle.

April 17, 2001, 09:24 AM	#6
AEM Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 1999 Posts: 171	This is great info Thanks guys, this is good stuff. I'm looking forward to reloading again. I've actually started, on a small scale. I don't have dies yet for the .308 (thinking of getting the Redding S set, with the collet to control neck diameter), but I remembered picking up a Lyman 310 tong tool for 30'06 about 20 years ago. I got it on sale and put it away without ever using it. I dug it out and found that I could adjust it to fit the shorter .308 case. I spent an enjoyable couple of hours prepping, neck sizing and priming some cases, and adjusting the seating die for some 165g. Sierras I had on hand. Sometimes it's good to get back to the basics.

April 17, 2001, 02:45 PM	#8
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: North Florida Posts: 1,346	M1A I use the the same dies for bolt and semi-auto. No small base dies needed for my M1a. I do FL resize for the M1A, tho. I buy powder for the M1A, so all my components are interchangable (except brass) between rifle types. Have Fun!

April 17, 2001, 03:05 PM	#9
AEM Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 1999 Posts: 171	Related question on M1A ammo v. boltgun ammo This is off the original topic, but since ya'll are being so helpful I'll ask anyway. I bought a case of CAVIM (Argentine) ammo for the M1A and it functions fine. I fired a couple of rounds in my Ruger 77, though, and could hardly open the bolt. I never saw any signs of high pressure with this ammo when firing it through the M1A, and I can't imagine that it is loaded too hot for a Ruger 77. I wonder if the case diameter is undersized for automatic or semi-automatic weapons, and that the relatively excessive expansion is what tied up the bolt. I need to measure the case head and compare the CAVIM to commercial ammo, I guess. Any idea what caused the hard extraction?

April 18, 2001, 01:30 PM	#11
AEM Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 1999 Posts: 171	CAVIM is hot? John, is CAVIM significantly hotter than other military 7.62 NATO? If it made the bolt hard to lift on my Ruger because of high pressure, then I don't think I should be shooting it in my M1A, right?

April 16, 2001, 03:39 PM	#1
AEM Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 1999 Posts: 171	I've been out of reloading for a long time, and all my manuals are many years old. I want to start loading 150g spitzers and the Sierra 168g match BTHP for my Ruger 77MkII with 22" sporter weight barrel, and maybe for my M1A as well(I say maybe for the M1A because I figure that will involve some complications like a small base sizing die, special attention to bullet pull, etc. When I'm ready for that step I'll post again). I want accuracy and readily available components at reasonable cost. I don't mind taking a little extra care with case prep, measuring, etc. for accuracy's sake, but I don't want to depend on components which are super expensive or hard to find. Finally, I'd like to settle on components which will be usable for the M1A as well so I don't have stock too many varieties of bullets, powder, etc. Any suggestions will be much appreciated.

April 16, 2001, 03:45 PM	#2
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	IMR 4064, Accurate Arms 2520, Winchester 748, Hodgdon Ball C-2 are all good propellants. If you want military pull down powder, go with WCC-846. You seem to have decided on your bullets. I'd go with http://www.wideners.com or http://www.midwayusa.com for your supplies.

April 16, 2001, 06:36 PM	#4
HandloaderJohn Member Join Date: September 18, 2000 Posts: 38	I use the AA 2550 for my gas and bolt 308s with 168s and 165s, it flows real nice through the powder unit and gives good accuracy. Good luck, hope this helps.

April 16, 2001, 08:48 PM	#5
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	I'm using 49.0 grs of IMR 4350 over a 165 Nosler Ballistic tip, R-P brass, CCI 200 primers at 2.820" OAL. Brass all prep'd for flash/primer holes, trimmed, chamfer'd & deburred. This for a Rem M7, 18.5" bbl .308 Win - never chrono'd but suspect right at about 2400+ fps Not the Sierra 168 (a wonderful bullet, BTW) but this load in mine does all but one-hole groups at 100 yds. I don't really reload for anything anymore than isn't at least dual-use for hunting applications. The Nosler BT is a very tough bullet to beat for working up accurate loads but a bit pricey ..... it does have a very nice BC for long range applications as well. 'Nother load for larger game applications if you'd care to e-mail ..... (edited) & BTW, all "never believe anything you haven't worked up for in your rifle & start at 10% below max, etc. .... all disclaimers apply ...

April 17, 2001, 10:10 AM	#7
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	DO NOT load the slower powders, such as 4350, if you're going to be using the rounds in a semi-auto - The pressure curve is different, and it tears up the mechanism... Fine for a bolt gun... I like 4895 and 165 gr. Ballistic Tips, or 4350 and 180 grainers...

April 17, 2001, 06:24 PM	#10
HandloaderJohn Member Join Date: September 18, 2000 Posts: 38	Cavim, hum, well, I have shot it from my M1A and 308 Garand, no probs, real hot stuff,never tried it in the bolt actions, it is not real accurate ,but goes bang everytime but for 168 bucks a thousand, what the heck. I had bad luck reloading the Cavim brass, wants to stick sometimes, so I have stopped reloading it, I just load the stuff made north of the Rio Grande. [Edited by HandloaderJohn on 04-17-2001 at 08:25 PM]

April 18, 2001, 03:03 PM	#12
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	AEM, I have a KM77MkII in .308 also. I find that several varieties of 7.62 are hard to extract. Hirtenberger is darn near impossible to open the bolt on. Still, I think that the ammo is made for use in FAL's and G-3's so it can't be all that bad in the M1-A. It probably just uses a faster powder like 4895 or Win748 that develops high velocity but at higher pressure than the aforementioned loads with slow burning 4350. I don't think it's the overall pressure that breaks op rods, but more the fact that the pressure is maintained longer in the barrel.

April 18, 2001, 03:11 PM	#13
AEM Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 1999 Posts: 171	I'm just wondering if I should keep shooting the Cavim in my M1A, or if it will wear it out prematurely. Thanks to all for your suggestions and advice.

April 18, 2001, 03:18 PM	#14
Jack Straw Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 362	I like Winchester 748 and IMR 4064. My MkII gives slightly better groups with the 4064 and Sierra 165gr GameKings. Jack

April 18, 2001, 06:47 PM	#15
HandloaderJohn Member Join Date: September 18, 2000 Posts: 38	AEM, who knows? I don't think you should worry about it, after all, they are a strong weapon, you would have to do a lot of shooting to wear the M1A out. [Edited by HandloaderJohn on 04-18-2001 at 09:15 PM]

April 18, 2001, 09:18 PM	#16
Troy Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Posts: 96	Lots of shooters have had problems with the Cavim, due to the excessive asphault bullet sealant gumming up their chambers. This is especially a problem with the HK fluted chambers. Most FALs and M1As shoot it fine, though. Remember: your Ruger has a tighter "match" chamber, where the M1A probably has a larger "military" chamber. A tight chamber can allow a gun to shoot better, but it can also generate higher pressures, especially if there is less freebore. -Troy