Question on a Fox Model-B 12G

beardenbc · March 15, 2010, 10:27 AM

I've sorta inherited a Fox Model-B series F shotgun.
It's a SxS 12g, gorgeous gun in what appears to be pristine condition. Thing is, I think one of the previous owners shortened it. The barrel is somewhere around 21 inches, and I can't find ANY info of such a model ever being produced.
If it was shortened by the owner, they did a beautiful job of it, because it looks like it was born that way, the ends is smooth and blued, and the beads are in the right places. My main clue was that as far as I can tell by feeling the inside of the barrel, this thing is a straight cylinder. I don't know for sure since I haven't patterned it yet, but that's my suspicion.

So a couple questions:

Did Savage ever make a 21-ish inch 12G Fox-B?
How hard do you think it would be to install screw in chokes on this?

oneounceload · March 15, 2010, 10:42 AM

My 20g Savage/Fox BSE has barrel walls easily thick enough for tube installation. I do not recall them making a barrel that short - they typically made 26, 28, and 30" barrel lengths. IF that was cut down, then you have cylinder chokes in both barrels - not necessarily bad for tight-quarter grouse or birds holding tight over pointers.

I would be concerned with the swing dynamics of barrels that short - they tend to be very whippy and most folks have a hard time with stopping the barrels when swinging. If you can, you might want to see how well you do on a skeet field with that gun and whether or not it might then be worth having the tubes installed

beardenbc · March 15, 2010, 12:25 PM

You think it still has potential for sporting stuff?
That's good. I was kinda worried that it wasn't much good for anything besides bedside burglar buckshot with the short barrels and cylinder choke.

I'll ask around on getting tubes installed.

Dave McC · March 15, 2010, 01:56 PM

I've done well with Cylinder bore over good dogs on quail and ringnecks when shots run less than 30 yards. Load selection is important, familiarity with the gun is crucial.

I like Model Bs. In your shoes I'd think of adding some tube chokes, but....

Barrels that short oft lack enough inertia to keep the swing going. IOW, your form and technique has to be nigh perfect because the gun itself is absolutely unforgiving. You have to decide if it's worth it.

A note, removing some wood from the stock by hollowing it out beneath the butt pad/plate will move the balance point forward a little and help handling. Downside, lighter shotguns kick harder. TANSTAAFL.

HTH....

oneounceload · March 15, 2010, 02:10 PM

You also might be able to add some weight forward by applying lead plumber's tape, (or similar), under the forearm. It might mean some woodworking skills, but a few ounces can make all the difference.

Before you do any mods, though, have an experienced clay shooter watch you on a skeet field to see how you work the gun. I had to add some weight to the front of an 1100 in 28 gauge because the light single barrel was too whippy for someone like me used to a long heavy 12 O/U

BigJimP · March 15, 2010, 02:25 PM

Even with added weight - that gun seems awful short to me for any clay target games like Sporting Clays / even Skeet ...I think is pushing it a little.

Not that you can't shoot it for anything you want ...but I don't think its your best option. I've even taken my old bolt action 16ga out to shoot a little skeet with it a couple of times ( just for laughs ) ...but it was a pretty ugly 15 - 18 avg as I recall .... but it was still fun...

RetiredLawman · March 15, 2010, 06:18 PM

The short barrels are great for portability and have no effect on velocity.

Longer barrels may help with handling when shooting clays but velocity is the same after 20".

Longer barrels are normally used for clays due to their handling.

beardenbc · March 16, 2010, 12:31 PM

That's pretty interesting. I had no idea barrel length had so little effect on ballistics.

So basically the gun itself is just fine, but the shooter has work harder to compensate for squirrely handling.

I might take her out for some clays this weekend and see how it goes.

Ricklin · March 16, 2010, 10:04 PM

Sadly, someone permanently altered that old piece to be a bedside blaster.
21" tubes are just too short, your mileage may vary, but I don't think your are going to like shooting clays with it.
I took my 26" Stevens 311 out for clays, I used the modified choke. Just too whippy, and the short tubes are much tougher to point. I mostly missed high or low with short barrels.
Skeet guns are usually 28-30" these days and trap is 30-32" There's a reason for that.

Good luck just the same. Caution, clays are addictive and expensive, a bad combination.

beardenbc · March 17, 2010, 10:19 AM

Addictive yeah, but not necessarily expensive unless you really get into it. I get clays for $8 per 90 and shells for $20 per 100. We just go out into the desert with a hand launcher every once in a while, nothing serious.
My winchester 1200 12G is my main shotgun that I use for hunting and clays. The foxB is just something that kinda fell into my lap when father in law died.

beardenbc · March 22, 2010, 11:25 AM

Can the action handle a slug?
I assume the accuracy would be crap because the barrels probably aren't perfectly aligned, but since it's a cylinder, what if I loaded a coupla rifled slugs in there and mounted a set of rifle sights?
Double barrel slug gun anyone?

zippy13 · March 22, 2010, 12:00 PM

The problem with slugs is that you're "right-on" only at the regulated distance. On the other hand, what are the longest and heaviest extended choke tubes that are practical? Give the folks a Briley a call and describe your situation.

beardenbc · March 22, 2010, 12:24 PM

Good idea. I'd much prefer to have screw in chokes for this, and maybe a speedbeed type setup to compensate for the short barrels. It really is a beautiful gun and it's a shame that I have no practical use for the thing due to it's current setup.

zippy13 · March 22, 2010, 02:12 PM

it's a shame that I have no practical use for the thing due to it's current setup.

Yep! It's too bad you can't cut barrels longer.

johnbt · March 22, 2010, 02:18 PM

I recall that they made some with 24" barrels, but none that I've heard of or seen with anything shorter.

Somedays I wish I still had my early '60s 12 ga. Model B, but I sold it then because I didn't like it so I'm probably fooling myself that I'd like it now. Who knows. Other people liked it, but it was just too big and unwieldy for a pre-teen.

John

zippy13 · March 23, 2010, 12:19 PM

Another approach:
TriStar's new Viper G2 Youth Model shotgun comes with a 2" barrel extension to use as the shooter grows. With M/F threads (Beretta/Benelli style), it acts as a screw-in choke extender. Perhaps something similar could be incorporated into re-choking the Fox. While not elegant, it could turn the Fox into a well balanced shooter.

OkieCruffler · March 24, 2010, 12:33 AM

Sad, so many of these classic American doubles have been butchered like this. But I would play with it for abit, see if you can ivercome the shorter barrels. If you can then a set of tubes would be called for. I kinda like a shorter gun for skeet, but it's been said I ain't right.

PetahW · March 24, 2010, 10:31 AM

[I recall that they made some with 24" barrels, but none that I've heard of or seen with anything shorter.]

Savage made some 18" barreled SxS's for Police/Riot/Guard duty, but not Model B's - every one I've seen was a Model 311.

And, AFAIK blued SxS shotgun muzzles are a clue to refinishing, as issue muzzles are usually "in-the-white".

.

OkieCruffler · March 24, 2010, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Savage made some 18" barreled SxS's for Police/Riot/Guard duty, but not Model B's - every one I've seen was a Model 311.

The 311R an great idea that was a few years too late. Still a great find if you come across one.

Lee Lapin · March 24, 2010, 12:30 PM

On a lark, I once took a 20" 12 ga. Rossi Coach Gun on a dove shoot. IIRC I went six out of nine with it that afternoon. But it demonstrated to me that it was possible to pass shoot successfully with short barrels. IIRC, the gun was choked IC and MOD, though...

lpl

johnbt · March 24, 2010, 02:29 PM

From http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=5&t=210935

re: 24" Model B
_____________________

"By 1973, the BSE and 16-gauges are gone, but there is a 24-inch barrel B in 12-gauge and 20-gauge, both with 3-inch chambers."

"For 1980, cut checkering is back, but the 24-inch barrel offerings are gone – B, BE and B-SE."

March 15, 2010, 10:27 AM	#1
beardenbc Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 189	Question on a Fox Model-B 12G I've sorta inherited a Fox Model-B series F shotgun. It's a SxS 12g, gorgeous gun in what appears to be pristine condition. Thing is, I think one of the previous owners shortened it. The barrel is somewhere around 21 inches, and I can't find ANY info of such a model ever being produced. If it was shortened by the owner, they did a beautiful job of it, because it looks like it was born that way, the ends is smooth and blued, and the beads are in the right places. My main clue was that as far as I can tell by feeling the inside of the barrel, this thing is a straight cylinder. I don't know for sure since I haven't patterned it yet, but that's my suspicion. So a couple questions: Did Savage ever make a 21-ish inch 12G Fox-B? How hard do you think it would be to install screw in chokes on this?

March 16, 2010, 10:04 PM	#9
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,013	Too short Sadly, someone permanently altered that old piece to be a bedside blaster. 21" tubes are just too short, your mileage may vary, but I don't think your are going to like shooting clays with it. I took my 26" Stevens 311 out for clays, I used the modified choke. Just too whippy, and the short tubes are much tougher to point. I mostly missed high or low with short barrels. Skeet guns are usually 28-30" these days and trap is 30-32" There's a reason for that. Good luck just the same. Caution, clays are addictive and expensive, a bad combination. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

March 22, 2010, 11:25 AM	#11
beardenbc Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 189	Hey! Here's a goofy idea... Can the action handle a slug? I assume the accuracy would be crap because the barrels probably aren't perfectly aligned, but since it's a cylinder, what if I loaded a coupla rifled slugs in there and mounted a set of rifle sights? Double barrel slug gun anyone?

March 23, 2010, 12:19 PM	#16
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Another approach: TriStar's new Viper G2 Youth Model shotgun comes with a 2" barrel extension to use as the shooter grows. With M/F threads (Beretta/Benelli style), it acts as a screw-in choke extender. Perhaps something similar could be incorporated into re-choking the Fox. While not elegant, it could turn the Fox into a well balanced shooter. Last edited by zippy13; March 24, 2010 at 12:44 AM.

March 24, 2010, 12:33 AM	#17
OkieCruffler Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2001 Location: Denison Texas on the banks of Texhoma Posts: 1,556	Sad, so many of these classic American doubles have been butchered like this. But I would play with it for abit, see if you can ivercome the shorter barrels. If you can then a set of tubes would be called for. I kinda like a shorter gun for skeet, but it's been said I ain't right. __________________ John A. Monroe, Never Forgive, Never Forget, Blood Pays Blood

March 15, 2010, 10:42 AM	#2
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	My 20g Savage/Fox BSE has barrel walls easily thick enough for tube installation. I do not recall them making a barrel that short - they typically made 26, 28, and 30" barrel lengths. IF that was cut down, then you have cylinder chokes in both barrels - not necessarily bad for tight-quarter grouse or birds holding tight over pointers. I would be concerned with the swing dynamics of barrels that short - they tend to be very whippy and most folks have a hard time with stopping the barrels when swinging. If you can, you might want to see how well you do on a skeet field with that gun and whether or not it might then be worth having the tubes installed

March 15, 2010, 12:25 PM	#3
beardenbc Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 189	You think it still has potential for sporting stuff? That's good. I was kinda worried that it wasn't much good for anything besides bedside burglar buckshot with the short barrels and cylinder choke. I'll ask around on getting tubes installed.

March 15, 2010, 01:56 PM	#4
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I've done well with Cylinder bore over good dogs on quail and ringnecks when shots run less than 30 yards. Load selection is important, familiarity with the gun is crucial. I like Model Bs. In your shoes I'd think of adding some tube chokes, but.... Barrels that short oft lack enough inertia to keep the swing going. IOW, your form and technique has to be nigh perfect because the gun itself is absolutely unforgiving. You have to decide if it's worth it. A note, removing some wood from the stock by hollowing it out beneath the butt pad/plate will move the balance point forward a little and help handling. Downside, lighter shotguns kick harder. TANSTAAFL. HTH....

March 15, 2010, 02:10 PM	#5
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	You also might be able to add some weight forward by applying lead plumber's tape, (or similar), under the forearm. It might mean some woodworking skills, but a few ounces can make all the difference. Before you do any mods, though, have an experienced clay shooter watch you on a skeet field to see how you work the gun. I had to add some weight to the front of an 1100 in 28 gauge because the light single barrel was too whippy for someone like me used to a long heavy 12 O/U

March 15, 2010, 02:25 PM	#6
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Even with added weight - that gun seems awful short to me for any clay target games like Sporting Clays / even Skeet ...I think is pushing it a little. Not that you can't shoot it for anything you want ...but I don't think its your best option. I've even taken my old bolt action 16ga out to shoot a little skeet with it a couple of times ( just for laughs ) ...but it was a pretty ugly 15 - 18 avg as I recall .... but it was still fun...

March 15, 2010, 06:18 PM	#7
RetiredLawman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2008 Posts: 133	The short barrels are great for portability and have no effect on velocity. Longer barrels may help with handling when shooting clays but velocity is the same after 20". Longer barrels are normally used for clays due to their handling.

March 16, 2010, 12:31 PM	#8
beardenbc Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 189	That's pretty interesting. I had no idea barrel length had so little effect on ballistics. So basically the gun itself is just fine, but the shooter has work harder to compensate for squirrely handling. I might take her out for some clays this weekend and see how it goes.

March 17, 2010, 10:19 AM	#10
beardenbc Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 189	Addictive yeah, but not necessarily expensive unless you really get into it. I get clays for $8 per 90 and shells for $20 per 100. We just go out into the desert with a hand launcher every once in a while, nothing serious. My winchester 1200 12G is my main shotgun that I use for hunting and clays. The foxB is just something that kinda fell into my lap when father in law died.

March 22, 2010, 12:00 PM	#12
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	The problem with slugs is that you're "right-on" only at the regulated distance. On the other hand, what are the longest and heaviest extended choke tubes that are practical? Give the folks a Briley a call and describe your situation.

March 22, 2010, 12:24 PM	#13
beardenbc Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 189	Good idea. I'd much prefer to have screw in chokes for this, and maybe a speedbeed type setup to compensate for the short barrels. It really is a beautiful gun and it's a shame that I have no practical use for the thing due to it's current setup.

March 22, 2010, 02:12 PM	#14
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	it's a shame that I have no practical use for the thing due to it's current setup. Yep! It's too bad you can't cut barrels longer.

March 22, 2010, 02:18 PM	#15
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	I recall that they made some with 24" barrels, but none that I've heard of or seen with anything shorter. Somedays I wish I still had my early '60s 12 ga. Model B, but I sold it then because I didn't like it so I'm probably fooling myself that I'd like it now. Who knows. Other people liked it, but it was just too big and unwieldy for a pre-teen. John

March 24, 2010, 10:31 AM	#18
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	[I recall that they made some with 24" barrels, but none that I've heard of or seen with anything shorter.] Savage made some 18" barreled SxS's for Police/Riot/Guard duty, but not Model B's - every one I've seen was a Model 311. And, AFAIK blued SxS shotgun muzzles are a clue to refinishing, as issue muzzles are usually "in-the-white". .

March 24, 2010, 12:30 PM	#20
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	On a lark, I once took a 20" 12 ga. Rossi Coach Gun on a dove shoot. IIRC I went six out of nine with it that afternoon. But it demonstrated to me that it was possible to pass shoot successfully with short barrels. IIRC, the gun was choked IC and MOD, though... lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

March 24, 2010, 02:29 PM	#21
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	From http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=5&t=210935 re: 24" Model B _____________________ "By 1973, the BSE and 16-gauges are gone, but there is a 24-inch barrel B in 12-gauge and 20-gauge, both with 3-inch chambers." "For 1980, cut checkering is back, but the 24-inch barrel offerings are gone – B, BE and B-SE."