Limp Wristing?

[JJ45]

Does it actually exist as a reason for malfunctions in an auto pistol?

if so, I would think the most prominent malfunction would be a "stove pipe" failure to eject?

Some say holding a pistol with a limp wrist should not cause a failure... I don't know. Any opinions would be enlightening....Thanks, JJ

[TunnelRat]

It can definitely happen. I've seen it numerous times and have been able to induce it deliberately as well. Glocks, for some reason, seem more susceptible than others (coming form someone that owns and carries Glocks). Some say it's frame material, but I also have polymer pistols that I can't for the life of me get to malfunction from limpwristing. And yes in my experience it usually affects the extraction and ejection of cases.

As for the "should it happen?" question, ideally you would prefer that whatever weapon you were using were as little susceptible to such a phenomenon as possible. Some models are more susceptible than others as I mentioned above, but certainly the nature of a reciprocating slide does rely on the user to keep the frame stable to a degree.

[KMAX]

I had a Ruger P95 that my wife and daughter could both shoot quite well as long as I stood there reminding them how to hold it. When I quite reminding them after a few shots they would revert to limp wristing the gun and having stovepipes. Their answer was "Whatever." I had to settle for teaching them to shoot double action revolvers, which they are quite capable with.

[ninjarealist]

In my opinion it depends a lot on the pistol. My USPc40, which is dead-nuts reliable, will almost never fail no matter how badly you limp wrist it. I learned to shoot auto pistols with this gun and have terribly limp-wristed it before. Never had a limp-wristing failure.

One of my acquaintances has a SW PPK that has to be held in a vice grip or it will FTE almost every time.

EDIT

And yes, limp-wristing usually causes FTEs more than other types of failures IMO.

[BigJimP]

Yes, it's a fairly common problem...usually causing a failure to extract or eject....

I see it - at least once a month - among new shooters at my local range.../ instructors that teach intro to handgun classes tell me they see it often on a variety of semi-auto's .

[Cosmodragoon]

Remember that there is a lot of physics going on with semi-automatic pistols. Watch what happens when you cycle the slide. Imagine the force vectors and think about all the different jobs being done by that fixed amount of energy across steps. A loose hold allows for more motion of the entire pistol. That can bleed off energy, alter vectors, and screw up timing. Stove-piping is a common malfunction under these circumstances.

I only usually see it with new shooters who have not yet developed a good grip or don't know what to expect. I've seen it with lots of handguns but some seem infamous. Among my group of shooting buddies, the FNX-45 seems the best check for limp-wristing among newbies.

[Brit]

Limp wristing was the invented reason for Glock Gen4 malfunctioning! This came out of Smyrna GA. Till the factory made main springs that worked.

I saw an Instructor hold a Glock 17 with finger and thumb, it still worked.

[44 AMP]

It is a fundamental principle of the recoil operated action that there will be something to recoil against.

Its something designers and shooters have known about since the introduction of recoil operated firearms. You can find it mentioned, rarely in the old literature, though not usually with the current name.

The current term is, I believe, something promoted, if not coined by, certain folks as a reason their guns were still "perfection" and malfunctions were ALWAYS the shooter's fault.

It does appear to happen more often with polymer framed pistols and less experienced shooters.

[polyphemus]

Of course,the slide recoils against the bullet.
And then the slide comes to a full stop and the shooter absorbs the rest of the energy.By the time this takes place the case has been ejected,failure to eject
is probably due to something other than weak wrists.

[TailGator]

It is a fundamental principle of the recoil operated action that there will be something to recoil against.

That is a good one-sentence summary. I don't think "limp wrist" is a great term for it - wrists, forearms, elbows, shoulders, maybe even stance contribute for some people - but it exists.

I have told this before, but: The first time my youngest daughter, then of college age, shot my Glock 26, she had multiple extraction failures. She was then an engineering student and immediately understood the idea expressed by 44 Amp when I explained it. She then had no more failures. There is simply no other explanation for the change except that she understood the problem and fixed it, by giving the pistol a more stable platform and stopping the practice of absorbing too much recoil by the way she held the pistol.

Are some pistols easier to "limp wrist" than others? I would expect so, because if nothing else a pistol with more mass in the frame inherently provides a greater resistance to the recoil impulse. Some folks say they won't have a pistol that can be limp wristed; that is the same as saying that their pistol has to work right if it is being used incorrectly. To me, it isn't a negative to the pistol as long as it works correctly in my hands. I still have both the G26 and the daughter.

[Mike_Fontenot]

I like to use a very relaxed grip and relaxed/flexed joints for all my handgun shooting, and fortunately my 10mm Kimber Eclipse actually seems to prefer it ... the few other people who have shot my Eclipse (who all use the prevailing very firm grip) have had more jams than I have.

[44 AMP]

There are, apparently, some people who cannot master the concept that for a tool to work properly, it must be used in a specific manner.

If you hold a claw hammer by the hammerhead, and try to drive nails with the handle, it is not very efficient.

Some tools work well enough in a wide variety of ways. Some, do not.

If you have to shoot a pistol a certain way, then that's the way you shoot it. Expecting it to perform properly when you don't, simply means you don't understand how and why it works.

No one thinks there is anything wrong with a standard transmission, because you have to use the clutch to shift gears (or you really should, ).

its accepted that is the way the mechanism operates best. Pistols aren't any different in that regard, there is a certain way to operate them that works best. And it can differ from gun to gun.

[g.willikers]

Like Mike and 44 Amp say, it can depend on the gun.
When I first added a 1911 to the sixguns I already had, I shot it the same way as the hoglegs.
As Mike describes and it worked just fine.
Not the way I do it nowadays, but it didn't object at all.

[melvinking]

As an instructor of 50 years experience, revolver and auto loader, I have found that people who limp wrist are lacking in upper body, arm and hand strength.

I am not saying that you have to be a body builder or weight lifter. If you increase your upper body,arm and hand strength, you can still use a relaxed grip because your relaxed grip will be strong enough to control the weapon. As a side effect you will also see your recoil control improve and will be able to get follow up aimed shots off quicker.

[Mike_Fontenot]

As a side effect you will also see your recoil control improve and will be able to get follow up aimed shots off quicker.

I'm one of te few shooters who don't aspire to fast followup shots. Both of my primary-carries are more powerful than the average handgun (10mm and .44mag), and they both have heavy recoils and muzzle-rises. And my BUG is an 11oz scandium/titanium .357 snubby that also has a lot of muzzle-rise. Both of the revolvers also have a high bore axis, and my low grip on my 1911 also results in a high bore axis. Back when I was only carrying my original .38 ultralight snubby, a fellow watched me shoot, and recommended a relaxed grip. I (over time) tried that, more and more, and grew to prefer it. When I upgraded to the ultralight .357 snubby, I at first thought THAT one would obviously require a very firm grip, but I SLOWLY tried backing off on the firm grip, and was VERY surprised that no matter how relaxed my grip/joints became, the gun never flew out of my hands, and never smacked me in the face ... the inertia of my forearms just soaks up the recoil. And a BIG benefit of that is that the recoil is isolated from the rest of my body ... it doesn't jar my eyes, teeth, brain, or neck ... MUCH more pleasant. It DOES slow down followup shots a lot, but if you only have 5 rounds, you know you can't afford to waste them. When I got my 10mm Eclipse, I continued shooting it the same way (although gradually relaxing, as before), and I also prefered the results there too. And when I got my .44mag S&W69 (5-shot, 4-1/4" 37oz) revolver, I was again amazed that my the inertia of my forearms even soaked up that enormous recoil (even with full-spec Underwood and DoubleTap).

Granted, almost everyone these days wants to get a lot of bullets down range very quickly, and for that, you DO need a firm grip (and preferably a high hold), and a high-capacity gun. But that's not what I want. (I'm probably the only 1911 shooter who has NEVER emptied a mag as fast as I can pull the trigger ... just never has seemed like something I wanted to do.)

[ninjarealist]

With all due respect to 44 AMP and Tailgator's opinions I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that the preference for tools which resist operator error is entirely predicated on misunderstanding of how tools function. I think the idea is that such tools can save your skin if you make a mistake during a stressful situation.

For example I used to do a lot of forestry work with chainsaws. I had two saws available for my use, the company saw, an incredibly powerful and reliable Stihl, and my own saw, an adequate but much less powerful Poulan. Of course I could cut down a tree with the Poulan if I needed to but because it had significantly less torque than the Stihl the chance of the saw getting caught in the tree were much lower.

Of course, with the proper technique, the Poulan works just as well, but felling trees can be a hair-raising experience under the best of circumstances. You really don't want your saw getting stuck when you're trying to make a cut because then you've created a much more dangerous situation. So I always chose the Stihl for felling big trees to decrease the danger that could arise from an accident. It's just an extra layer of protection like wearing a helmet and chainsaw chaps. Neither a helmet nor chainsaw chaps is necessary to cut down a tree but they will save you if you screw up.

I look at guns the same way. Of course with the proper technique any properly made gun should function properly. However, there is always a chance of a failure and if you get that stovepipe in a self-defense situation, it could be very, very, bad. It's why many people still carry revolvers despite the other obvious disadvantages. It mitigates the danger of failure.

[1969Colt1911]

I thought force vectors were what the tiny fighter jets used to fire flavor into starburst. And that the mainspring housing sprung hammer, trigger, grip safety. I agree you need a firm enough hold for reliable operation. But don't tense muscles to much or you will flinch or jerk weapon off target before shots.

[michael t]

Its real My daughter had a boy friend that jammed every semi auto. I let him try. I would fire a mag Then let him try. Never made it thru a single mag 380 9mm or 45 . I think he could jam a cap gun. My daughter had no trouble shooting the same pistols . I told her to ditch him and find a real man .

[Mike_Fontenot]

But don't tense muscles to much or you will flinch or jerk weapon off target before shots.

You're right. I forgot to mention that a relaxed grip tends to make it easier to divorce your trigger finger from the gripping-function of the rest of your hand ... at least, that's how it works for me.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by polyphemus

Of course,the slide recoils against the bullet.
And then the slide comes to a full stop and the shooter absorbs the rest of the energy. By the time this takes place the case has been ejected,failure to eject is probably due to something other than weak wrists.

What do you believe provides the resistance to hold the frame in place while the slide is compressing the recoil spring to come to a full stop?

A recoil operated pistol is a relatively simple mechanism. In most pistols, the slide must reach the end of it's travel to fully eject the fired casing and provide enough energy through the compression of the recoil spring to strip the next round from the magazine and load it into the chamber.

If the frame is allowed to move rearward with the slide, the velocity of the slide relative to the frame will be low causing weak ejection, and the slide will never reach the stop (full recoil spring compression) if the frame is allowed to move rearward far enough.

There are two things holding the frame in place so the slide can reach full travel relative to the frame.

The "inertia" of the frame is one, your grip is the other.

Inertia is the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion (this includes changes to its speed, direction or state of rest). Inertia is one of the primary manifestations of mass, which is a quantitative property of physical systems.

The inertia of an object is dependent upon its' mass. This is the primary reason that steel frame pistols are typically less sensitive to limp wristing than aluminum or polymer framed pistols, they simply have more mass (weigh more) in the frame. In simple terms, make the frame of your pistol heavy enough and your grip will become irrelevant.

If the frame of your pistol does not have enough inertia to fully resist the forces trying to compress the recoil spring, then your grip must provide the balance of the resistance.

A loose enough or low enough grip will allow the frame to move rather than compress the recoil spring, causing low slide velocity relative to the frame, which means ejection and feed problems.

[polyphemus]

What do you believe provides the resistance to hold the frame in place while the slide is compressing the recoil spring to come to a full stop?

A:The same thing that does what you describe while the bullet is travelling forward.
Try to understand that there are two equal forces at work and the frame simply
holds the device that produces those forces.

[g.willikers]

I have found that people who limp wrist are lacking in upper body, arm and hand strength.

Adding chest and shoulder muscle to aid the process, can greatly help.
Pushing the gun forward with both hands can, too.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577024

[Mike_Fontenot]

Originally Posted by 45_Auto

What do you believe provides the resistance to hold the frame in place while the slide is compressing the recoil spring to come to a full stop?
[...]

That was a very good explanation. One way to help visualize that is to think about the two extremes: (1) the grip is solidly held in a vice, or (2) the gun is floating in outer space, and discharges.

I think my relaxed grip makes my 10mm 1911 run better because with full-spec 10mm ammo, the slide tends to move back TOO fast ... it throws the brass completely across width of the range, where they hit the wall and fall to the floor. A relaxed grip slows that down at least a little.

[1969Colt1911]

I'm about to adopt a Lightweight Commander. So mass of energy, to bullet weight and energy absorbed. To size of barrel to hold on gun. Equals lowest energy absorbed though hand? I do need the basics you guys are sick with this science. I believe JMB design the 1911 for a typical man with moderate strength. Don't let gun fly out of hand and hold on target. Gives the appropriate base for gun to function. It does need a hold like any gun ever designed.

[Wyosmith]

I use the sidewalk VS water-bed to teach this lesson;

If you held a coil spring vertically and compressed it against the sidewalk and then took the same spring and tried to compress it against a water bed mattress you would find that the same amount of pressure would not compress the spring against the bag of water as it did when it was against cement.

Such is the dynamic with autos.

If you don't hold the gun in a way that allows the spring to fully compress you can get short cycles.

I had a very small and thin woman (84 pounds) come to my shop just 2 weeks ago with a sub-compact 9mm and said the gun just didn't work right.
She and I went out to my firing range and she shot it in front of me. A 7 shot mag malfunctioned 5 shots.
I took the gun, reloaded and shot it 7 for 7.
Then I did it 3 more times. So I shot 21 rounds just fine and she could not get the gun to work 3 shot in a row ever.

I explained the problem to her just as I did above using the spring against a water-bed as a lesson.

When she would squeeze the gun firmly and use the left hand to squeeze her right hand, and lean forward a bit at the hips the gun started to work for her perfectly.

I took out my CZ75 and let her shoot it. She was amazed at how easy it was. I explained that the CZ was very heavy compared to her little sub compact, and the standing momentum of the larger gun was helping act as "the sidewalk" to compress the spring.

I have seen many 1911s jam from limp writing when I was teaching combative tactics in the USMC back in the 70s and 80s Most times when the man or woman started to grip the gun tighter and keep their wrists straight the jamming stopped. I have seen Browning A5 Shotguns do it too, when their owners try to shoot them from the hip. The arms often will not hold the gun forcefully enough to allow full compression of the spring.
So it is not uncommon.
The "fix" for it is often as simple as holding on firmly and solidly.