147 grain 9mm smack down

[.357SIG]

If it works in your gun, and you feel like using it...go for it.

The bad reputation for the 147 gr. JHP can be traced to quite a few places. Most of the time, the 9mm as a whole gets called a weak, underpowered round, and the 147 further gets called unreliable and slow.

A big issue now is there are so many other calibers that get the title of "best man stopper", and people gravitate toward them like flies to s$%t. The unfortunate reality is they are no better suited for protection against people than the 9mm they replaced.

Against any human target, the standard 9mm in any weight has more than enough power to destroy even the strongest tissues. A hit to the heart with a 9mm is only different than the same hit with a .40 in that the .40 might expand to a slightly larger diameter. Energy, velocity, penetration, etc. are nice on paper, but really amount to a big, fat zero with real world performance. To a human heart, a tissue roughly the size of a fist, the difference is like a cat being hit by a 3/4 ton truck (or Ford F250 size) or a 1 ton (Ford F350); it makes no difference.

Where does a heavier caliber really shine? Larger or stronger wild animals. You might need the penetration of a .357 Magnum when shooting the breast plate of a wild hog, which can be extremely tough to penetrate. Often, you need more than a normal anti-personnel round to deal with charging bears.

To sum it up, the reason the 147 gr. 9mm isn't as widely used is because people feel it can't keep up with the big boys when it comes to dropping a person like a sack of dirt. Unfortunately, most of these people are misinformed.

[sthomper]

i ve seen numerous videos of 380 acp hp bullets expanding quite well at
900fps-ish reported velociteis...if they arent lying of course.

why wouldnt a 147g 9mm (if such exists?) at 1000fps not expand??

in the videos i saw using bullets hitting bone and meat if the hp bullet struck bone it usually was deflected or deformed anyway and expansion was soso and uneven.

[sthomper]

b-bore website states its subsonic? 147 g 9mm bullet travels 930fps from a 3inch barrell.....the videos i saw of 380acp s hitting bone were doing quite well at the same velocites (going thru bone and about 4 inches into game flesh) yet with significantly lighter bullets.

[sthomper]

"A 20 year old report using 30 year old data. :barf:

Today's 147 grain bullet technology is not your father's 147 grain bullet technology."

were all older hp bullets crappy???? were they more dependent on higher velocity to expand 'properly'? substantiating the (false) claim of 147g failures??

[RBid]

This is a thread from 2010, and it contained a lot of bull. There are multiple 147gr loads that are known to be very effective. Speer Gold Dots, Winchester PDX1s, and Federal HST, just off the top of my head. 147 offers light felt recoil, and very good penetration.

[stormyone]

lol I wonder if people still believe the crap on Chuck Hawks website?

[Madcap_Magician]

Universally the detractors of the 147-gr. 9mm bullet soured on it based on experience with very old bullet designs. Which is unfair on two levels- first, none of the modern, premium self defense ammo is problematic in ANY bullet weight, and second, ALL of the old hollow points were erratic performers at best in ANY bullet weight.

I switched from the warp-speed 127-gr. +P+ Winchester Ranger load to the 147-gr. standard pressure Federal HST after noting that the performance was nearly identical, but the Ranger load recoils like a .40 S&W, while the HST load recoils like a 115-gr. FMJ practice load.

[dajowi]

I've loaded up a lot of 147 gr. FP hard cast 9mm. I use it for target practice and in my EDC. Never had an issue with it.

[481]

Originally Posted by stormyone:

lol I wonder if people still believe the crap on Chuck Hawks website?

I run across that 'site occasionally- the amount of disinformation there is astounding making it the ideal quagmire for the uninformed.

IIRC, he has even begun to charge folks for the "wisdom" offered by his 'site. Eh.

[Gaerek]

Old thread with older info.

Modern 147gr JHP rounds work very well. Back in the 80's close to the infancy of modern JHP tech, the 147gr rounds would not reliably expand. They were JHP, but FMJs in practice. Today, the technology is far better, but the 147gr rounds now have a bad rep due to past poor performance.

I carry 124gr +P Speer Gold Dots, but I wouldn't be against carrying 147gr Gold Dots either.

[zeke4351]

Originally Posted by Leejack

People worry way too much about this stuff.

I agree with you. These people are going to what if theirselves to death.

[jrothWA]

Hornady 124gr XTP's for my CPL's.

124gr was original loading.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I agree with you. These people are going to what if theirselves to death.

Have to agree to an extent and i avoided this thread because there is enough going around about caliber vs caliber comparisons.

The way i see it is when you try to max out the weight of a particular a caliber like the 9mm and have it slow down to the velocity of a 45 acp, your trying to mimic a .45 in a smaller diameter that may have a better effect in a +p round in a +p gun getting closer to the same effect as the 45, but not close enough to be considered "the 9mm answer to the 45 alternative" so that someone can say "i changed ammo and it makes my gun the same effectively as this other gun and mine carry's more rounds and that makes my gun better" argument.

Talking about splitting hairs to look for blood, to drop in the water, to attract a particular shark, that lost it's tag, or so someone said.Madness.

splitting hairs to look for blood, to drop in the water

<<<can you do that? dunno

[6.8]

How about a 9mm 115gr fully bonded hollow point going about 1500 fps ? . Would that get-er done.

[LockedBreech]

The initial response by the user "noyes" was absolute garbage. Not only are there a number of truly excellent 147-loads available now - to the point that it's what I prefer in 9mm - but his statement that:

"I will now tell you the best 9mm Luger load for self-defense: it is the Cor-Bon 9mm 115 grain +P Jacketed Hollowpoint."

is very inaccurate for the simple reason that there is no 'best' round for self-defense right now, in any major service caliber.

There are simply too many awesome choices. Federal, Speer, Remington, and Winchester, among others, all produce excellent designs that perform well and consistently . The HST, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, and Ranger-T are wonderful rounds that are proven over and over, and they are only a small sample of the excellent selection on the market. I trusted the 147-grain Ranger-T and the 147-grain Speer Gold Dot enough to - after thorough reliability tests - recommend them to friends of mine who were buying a pistol to defend their families. I wanted a super easy recoiling round that was still potent, and my friends put these proven rounds in the X-ring with almost no practice.

Find a round that shoots well, and accurately, in your pistol, and you can almost never go wrong now. Even the "older" rounds like Federal Hydra-Shok and Winchester Silvertip are solid performers for the most part, though I wouldn't recommend them in a 147-grain 9mm.

There are very few JHP rounds sold now that are truly "bad" choices. I carry Speer Gold Dot in my weapons because it's effective, quality-controlled, and easy to find. I would just as happily snag a box of Golden Saber, HST, or Ranger-T if they fed well in the particular weapon I was shopping for. I stick with Gold Dot for the sole reason that I'm too cheap to try out the feeding quality of a new round when the one I'm using now works.

[seeker_two]

How about a 9mm 115gr fully bonded hollow point going about 1500 fps ? . Would that get-er done.

I've seen some all-copper 90gr. HP loads lately that get that fast and still hit the 12" mark in penetration. Interesting stuff....

[RBid]

Wreck-n-Crew,

I think most people will acknowledge that .45 > 9mm, if we look only at what the rounds do upon impact with a body. It's slightly better, viewed only in that weigh. There are other factors that need to be considered, though.

1. The 147gr is very controllable. This matters, when you shoot at realistic defensive speed.

2. Percussion is a very big difference. Discharging a .45 without hearing protection is a totally different experience, even outdoors. Doing it in a hallway, parking garage, etc would be horrible. This gets ignored a lot.

3. Capacity.

A 9mm 147gr is a round that performs similarly to the .45, is easier to control, is less likely to jack up your ears, and allows you to carry more of it. I'm good with that.

[MLeake]

RBid, most of your points are fine, with one glaring exception - 9mm has a higher dB rating than .45acp. This makes sense, since sound volume is a function of pressure, and 9mm is a higher pressure round than .45.

[RBid]

Thank you for the correction, MLeake. I prefer being corrected to being wrong

[micromontenegro]

2. Percussion is a very big difference. Discharging a .45 without hearing protection is a totally different experience, even outdoors. Doing it in a hallway, parking garage, etc would be horrible. This gets ignored a lot.

MLeake beat me to it. .45 ACP report is normally much milder than 9mm, comparing "comparable" loads.

[RC20]

People are not ballistics gel. They are not buttons, cell phones, and in the important area of shooting (lungs and heart) they have this pesky thing called a rib cage.

Gel tests are fine for seeing how one design compares to another on a apples to apples basis and how you design is either improving or not working as well as you thought.

While I am not a fan of 147 because I think it move too slow and does not expander reliably in real wold, it is effective (and sighting information form the 90s is useless as the state of the art changes rapidly these days and thats like looking at rocks in the year 0. )

Any modern SD ammo gives you the best chance. None are guaranteed man stopper (even a 44 magnum) unless you Get lucky and take out the heart, brain or sever a spine.

I like Remington GS 127 gr because they are good stuff, they were inexpensive compare d the rest and I could shoot it and the Sig loved em.

[RC20]

2. Percussion is a very big difference. Discharging a .45 without hearing protection is a totally different experience, even outdoors. Doing it in a hallway, parking garage, etc would be horrible. This gets ignored a lot.

I never hear the bang when I am hunting (sans ear protection back in the day). It may factor in with some and not others but I doubt seriously the ban between a 124 9mm and a 44 magnum is going to make any difference, you either are affected by it and it matters not or you aren't and it matters not as well.

[57K]

I am not a fan of standard pressure 147 gr. JHP loads, either. Whoever told the OP that they were superior to excellent 124 gr +P loads like the Gold Dot was mistaken. The 124 gr. Gold Dot +P or the Ranger 127 gr. +P+ have an edge in both energy and momentum which pretty much ends any argument concerning the various expert factions on wound ballistics. When you have both higher energy and momentum the energy and momentum act on the bullet to provide expansion while momentum is the larger factor in penetration.

There is a way to hedge all bets, though. That would be with a 147 gr. JHP +P load that provides enough velocity to ensure expansion while still providing excellent penetration.

[bluetopper]

My main concern is hitting the "X" ring at 25yards. My reloaded 147gr cast lead bullets do the trick for me out of my 9mm 1911's.

Seems everyone here is obsessed with trying to kill somebody.

My handguns are for my entertainment and enjoyment.

[Laz]

My handguns are for my entertainment and enjoyment.

I must admit that in nearly every case, mine are also. That is why I tend to make the weapons I like to shoot work for me as home defense weapons rather than spend my time trying to learn to like to shoot weapons that were chosen strictly for defensive applications. Life is too short to spend my time turning something I like into a chore. I'd rather dance with the one I brung.

If you read about some old fart who was murdered by a gang of zombie ninja gang-banger bikers while trying to reload his Blackhawk, it was probably me.

Edited to add: I do have a couple of handguns that I can shoot and like to shoot that are not single-action revolvers, so I'm not completely "helpless". Just mostly so.