45-70 - Hornady 300gr JHP with IMR 4198 and IMR 3031

[frumious]

Hi All,

I have a Marlin 1895 guide gun in 45-70 for which I reload. I bought the gun new last year; it is current production Remington-made with Ballard rifling (not micro-groove). I have successfully worked up a cast load and now am working up a jacketed load.

I am comparing jacketed loads listed in Lyman 49th vs. Hornady 7th. Lyman lists Nosler's 300gr jacketed PP bullet with Remington brass and primers, while Hornady lists their own (of course) 300gr JHP bullet with Winchester brass and Federal primers. The Hornady 300gr JHP is the bullet I am actually loading. I am using Starline brass and CCI primers (large rifle non-magnum).

Anyway, I am looking at Marlin-level load data with IMR 4198 and IMR 3031 in these two manuals and there is a big difference on the top end:

Lyman 49: Nosler 300 JPP / IMR 4198 - 36.0 to 41.0 grains
Hornady 7: Hornady 300 JHP / IMR 4198 - 35.8 to 48.7 grains 7.7 grains higher than Lyman!!

Lyman 49: Nosler 300 JPP / IMR 3031 - 48.0 to 51.0 grains
Hornady 7: Hornady 300 JHP / IMR 3031 - 50.2 to 56.9 grains 5.9 grains higher than Lyman!!

Normally I'd just go with the Hornady data because hey, its their bullet. But wow, those loads from the Hornady manual are pretty hot compared to Lyman. And I know I am supposed to work up and watch for pressure signs and all of that...but two points: First, working up over 7 grains higher than in a respected manual (even on the advice of another respected manual) is a little new for me. Second...I don't think I will see pressure signs until well after the point where I damage the Marlin action. After all, there are Ruger No. 1 loads that are hotter than the Marlin loads...I doubt safe loads in the Ruger show classic pressure signs in the Marlin, except for maybe the rifle going KB.

So anyway what I am trying to find out is if anyone has used this Hornady 300gr bullet in an 1895 or similar lever gun with loads that are in the Hornady 7 range but above the Lyman 49 range. That is, 41 to 48.7 grains of IMR 4198 or 51 to 56.9 grains of 3031.

-cls

[Scharfschuetzer]

I'm traveling right now so I don't have access to my loading logs or I could help you out with the details a bit better. As it is, I'm something like 6,000 miles from home, so here is my "off the top of my head" answer.

I've had great success with 3031 and the Hornady 300 grain bullet in the Marlin 1895. In a friend's (with micro-groove rifling) that combo shoots a true MOA for 5 shot groups and is very consistant over a chronograph. I used the Hornady manual from the 1980s to work up the load.

Start low and just work up gradually until either recoil or pressure signs signal you to back off. I know that in my friends light carbine, recoil was the deciding factor for us and due to good accuracy and adaquate velocity we stopped a couple of grains below the max load in the manual.

[SHR970]

Microgroove Marlin loads worked up from Hornady #4. I ran 56.0 gr. 3031 with Rem. 300 gr. HP W-W Brass and CCI 200 primer. Still had room to go pressure wise, showed good offhand accuracy at 200 yards and I still could boost the charge if I so desired. You'll find that the different manuals can have some substantial variations in what they call max. charge.

[Jerry45]

I’ve also found a BIG difference in the Lyman 49 manual and Hodgon / IMR on line loading data. I’m also loading for a Marlin 1985 Guide Gun. Lyman gives load data for IMR 4198 of 36 gr. to 41.gr. for a 300 gr. bullet. I’m loading H 4198 and the Lyman 49 gives no data for H 4198. Guy I bought the powder said IMR 4198 and H 4198 are the same. They are close but not the same.

Hodgon / IMR reloading center gives loads for a 300 gr. bullet for 45/70 lever guns of:

IMR 4198 53.7 gr. to 57.2 gr.

H 4198 55.0 to 60.0

Lymen 49 states IMR 4198 specifacely for Marlin 1895 36.0 to 42.0

I started out at .36.0 gr. H 4198 and worked up to 42.0. I found 37.0 to shoot pretty flat out to 100 yards and the recoil is very manageable so that’s the load I settled on.

After seeing the discrepancy between Lyman and Hodgon I did some testing. I started at 37.0 gr. and loaded up to 60.0 gr. in 1.0 grain increments. I didn’t find any difference in accuracy between the 37.0 and higher loadings. What I did find is around 46.gr the recoil started becoming uncomfortable and got scope bit at 54.0 gr. I pulled the bullets out of everything higher than that. There is no way in hell I’m shooting 60.0 grs.

[frumious]

Jerry45, holy crap! I just went and looked at the Hodgdon reloading data for myself and sure enough they top out at 57.2 grains of 4198 pushing a 300 grain Sierra hollow point! And 64.0 grains of 3031 pushing that same bullet!

I'm not recoil-averse at all but I think I would blow out my shoulder or totally embed the scope in my eye socket long before I got through those Hodgdon loads. Sounds like the 1895 is able to dish out whatever anyone thinks they are man enough to handle.

Thanks for pointing out even more ridiculously heavy loads than I already knew about. Makes me not feel so bad about the Hornady data.

I think what I'll do is work up half a grain at a time, and start on the high end of Lyman's numbers. I will progress as far into Hornady's numbers as I can and see what happens with accuracy and recoil.

-cls

[Scharfschuetzer]

Many of the new manuals list three power levels for the 45/70.

1. Trapdoors
2. Marlin 1985 and Winchester 1886
3. Ruger No 1 and Simese Mauser

Obviously one must check to see that he's on the right page.

[mete]

Add to the #3 .Browning 1885 and the newer Winchester 1885 which are basically the same gun.

The 300 gr at 1850 does a fine job on deer with very moderate recoil. A MAX for the 300 would be 2200 but I would leave that to the Ruger and Browning, but that's got some serious recoil. I've been happier with the Nosler Partition or Barnes all copper.

[frumious]

True, Scharfschuetzer, true. For that matter, one must be constantly vigilant that he is actually looking at a reloading manual, as opposed to his wife's Betty Crocker cookbook or this month's Wal-Mart flier for reloading information. Such mistakes often lead to dangerous and unpredictable situations. Thank you for helping keep us all on track.

Anyway, I am looking at Marlin-level load data with IMR 4198 and IMR 3031 in these two manuals and there is a big difference on the top end.

-cls

[Jerry45]

After seeing the Hodgon site I went out the shop and looked to make sure I had used the right data. Sure enough it said Marlin 1895. I then paged back to the Trapdoor data then back to the Marlin. Went back in the house and looked at the computer. Then I took the laptop out to the shop and looked at H 4164 v IMR 4164 and the IMR 4164 on the Lyman / Marlin page. I was like ***. So that’s when I decide to experiment. If I ever go Grizzly hunting I use a 400 + gr. bullet and Hodgon’s load data. Hopefully I only need one shot and won’t be using a scope.

[dodge]

I use 44 grs of IMR 4198 behind the Hornady 350 gr flatnose for a velocity of 1800 out of my guide gun. I tryed some of the 300 gr hp with a powder charge of 46 gr of IMR 4198 before the recoil got bad enough that it hurt too much to shoot. Anybody that says they shoot a hotter load than that must be a bigger man than me and I stand 6'5" and weight in at 295 lbs. With the 350 gr load I started low and worked up until I got to that level of pain and backed of a couple of grains. The recoil isn't that bad but the gun sure does jump. When I had a scope on it and if I was wearing a baseball style hat it would knock it off of my head from the scope hitting it.

[rr2241tx]

I have the Winchester 1885 Short Rifle and just a couple of weekends ago did some load evaluations with it using IMR 4198 and Remington 405 JSP. Conclusion: OUCH! That crescent buttplate did nothing in the way of spreading out the recoil energy. 30 grains was tolerable but muzzle rise was horrendous. By 50 grains there was a real danger to low flying aircraft and the pain was definitely overpowering the pleasure. No signs of pressure at the top load. I couldn't find any load data for 400/405 grain bullets with less than 30 grains of powder but I'm thinking a lighter load would be a lot more fun to shoot if it is safe.