Bore cleaners....ammonia vs. non-ammonia - Page 2

rekoyl · April 22, 2008, 12:17 PM

to gorgon24:

The stuff I use is 10%. I don't think I could stand the smell of anything stronger than that. I get it in the same type of bottle that rubbing alcohol or hydrogen peroxide comes in.

brickeyee · April 23, 2008, 07:50 AM

Watch out even with the weak ammonia solutions.

Caustics (bases) are very damaging to the cornea compared to even acids.

The base saponifies the fat in the cornea creating an acid and a soap.

This makes the cornea cloudy and there are no treatments to make it clear again.

gorgon24 · April 23, 2008, 08:07 AM

And here I thought I was going blind from reading all this good information on the Firing Line Forums.

But Noooooooooo

It is from cleaning my handguns!

Bummer. What's a shooter to do?

Looks like I got to re-think some things.

Well it is decided .... No more reading! I sure as heck ain't giving up shooting! Even if it causes me to go blind.

But then what to do?

I will have brickeyee replace my corneas and start all over again!

I love modern day technology!

brickeyee Seriously .... Thanks for the Warning! One can't be to careful with chemicals.

brickeyee · April 24, 2008, 09:29 AM

PhD, not an MD.

Many years ago I worked as an EMT/Paramedic, and since then have been involved in all sorts of things involving chemicals, radiation, and electronics.

gorgon24 · April 24, 2008, 10:13 AM

P - Post
H - Hole
D - Digger

Keep it in the garage with my shovel and hoe.

Hey with some of the MD's I have had the unfortunate pleasure of meeting I would rather have a EMT/Paramedic cut on me!

brickeyee · April 25, 2008, 10:36 AM

BS Bull S**t
MS More of the Same
PhD Piled higher and Deeper

General practitioner: Knows less and less about more and more till finally they know nothing about everything.

Specialist: Knows more and more about less and less till finally they know everything about nothing.

have you ever seen the plastic 'mushrooms' on rebar at a construction site?
Ever wondered what happened to folks when they fell or jumped onto the rebar before OSHA required those?
We cut the rebar off and took it and the patient to the ER.
Luckily it did not hit anything terribly important on the way through.

The Lovemaster · April 25, 2008, 11:40 AM

Funny you mention OSHA. I read an op-ed co-authored by Robert Crandall (ex-CEO of American Airlines) that the FAA and many other agencies (OSHA being one) have actually not improved safety. Example - FAA got wood for American and forced it to cancel thousands of MD-80 flights, thus forcing many people to take cars on a trip originally planned for planes. Driving being much more dangerous than flying, the FAA actually made things less safe.

Regarding the mushroom caps, have you ever actually seen anyone trip and fall onto a rebar? Not me, not in 22 years in this here bidness.

Count me among the guys who like the smell of Hoppe's No. 9. Heck it's so sexy, I even turn myself on!

Now back to the topic. Sorry.

Scott

brickeyee · April 25, 2008, 12:09 PM

"Example - FAA got wood for American and forced it to cancel thousands of MD-80 flights, thus forcing many people to take cars on a trip originally planned for planes. Driving being much more dangerous than flying, the FAA actually made things less safe."

The back story is that the FAA gave American months to perform the inspections.
American just did not get around to the work, and when congress starting breathing down the FAAs back they told American to get the checks done NOW.

"Regarding the mushroom caps, have you ever actually seen anyone trip and fall onto a rebar? Not me, not in 22 years in this here bidness."

The story I have above is true.
A worker jumped/fell from one deck of a building to another and impaled himself on a piece of #4 rebar.
It entered in the perineum and exited in the lower back.
Tore up the intestine pretty bad, but missed all the major blood vessels.
We arrived to the guy just standing there unable to get himself off the rebar since it extended about 3 feet above his head.

I saw a couple other smaller impalements also, usually a forearm or hand.

**Unclenick** · April 25, 2008, 12:10 PM

I had occasion, some years ago, to get a .308 case stuck in a Redding die. None of the conventional removal methods worked. The casehead got seriously torn up when trying to use the drill and tap and puller method. With nothing left to get hold of, I put in in a jar with ACE ammonia. after several months it finally dissolved the case. However, the steel was discolored reddish and left with an activated matte surface that got surface rust easily. It never quite cleaned up.

So, it is possible to damage steel with strong enough ammonia, though it takes a long time. Using it with a rust inhibitor would be a good idea. You could mix it with a little of one of the water-soluble coolant oils sold for machining. Even a water soluble radiator lubricant might work? Use the ACE ammonia instead of half of the water it is normally diluted with. Despite the slow action on the steel, if you clean a bore with it, I would recommend you put some Flitz on a patch and lightly polish the bore after using it to prevent after-rust. The barrel steel is a lot softer and its grain structure is easier to attack chemically than steel is. For myself, I will continue using the newer water-base non-ammonia cleaners with rust inhibitors. They work a lot faster.

brickeyee · April 25, 2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

I had occasion, some years ago, to get a .308 case stuck in a Redding die. None of the conventional removal methods worked. The casehead got seriously torn up when trying to use the drill and tap and puller method. With nothing left to get hold of, I put in in a jar with ACE ammonia. after several months it finally dissolved the case. However, the steel was discolored reddish and left with an activated matte surface that got surface rust easily. It never quite cleaned up.

You made a battery with the brass (copper-zinc alloy) and steel.
Galvanic corrosion is a nasty thing to see.

April 23, 2008, 08:07 AM	#28
gorgon24 Junior member Join Date: April 15, 2008 Location: Ohio - lower left hand corner Posts: 84	Cloudy Cornea .... And here I thought I was going blind from reading all this good information on the Firing Line Forums. But Noooooooooo It is from cleaning my handguns! Bummer. What's a shooter to do? Looks like I got to re-think some things. Well it is decided .... No more reading! I sure as heck ain't giving up shooting! Even if it causes me to go blind. But then what to do? I will have brickeyee replace my corneas and start all over again! I love modern day technology! brickeyee Seriously .... Thanks for the Warning! One can't be to careful with chemicals.

April 24, 2008, 10:13 AM	#30
gorgon24 Junior member Join Date: April 15, 2008 Location: Ohio - lower left hand corner Posts: 84	Got my P.H.D. to .... P - Post H - Hole D - Digger Keep it in the garage with my shovel and hoe. Hey with some of the MD's I have had the unfortunate pleasure of meeting I would rather have a EMT/Paramedic cut on me!

April 25, 2008, 12:10 PM	#34
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I had occasion, some years ago, to get a .308 case stuck in a Redding die. None of the conventional removal methods worked. The casehead got seriously torn up when trying to use the drill and tap and puller method. With nothing left to get hold of, I put in in a jar with ACE ammonia. after several months it finally dissolved the case. However, the steel was discolored reddish and left with an activated matte surface that got surface rust easily. It never quite cleaned up. So, it is possible to damage steel with strong enough ammonia, though it takes a long time. Using it with a rust inhibitor would be a good idea. You could mix it with a little of one of the water-soluble coolant oils sold for machining. Even a water soluble radiator lubricant might work? Use the ACE ammonia instead of half of the water it is normally diluted with. Despite the slow action on the steel, if you clean a bore with it, I would recommend you put some Flitz on a patch and lightly polish the bore after using it to prevent after-rust. The barrel steel is a lot softer and its grain structure is easier to attack chemically than steel is. For myself, I will continue using the newer water-base non-ammonia cleaners with rust inhibitors. They work a lot faster. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 22, 2008, 12:17 PM	#26
rekoyl Junior Member Join Date: April 3, 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 5	to gorgon24: The stuff I use is 10%. I don't think I could stand the smell of anything stronger than that. I get it in the same type of bottle that rubbing alcohol or hydrogen peroxide comes in.

April 23, 2008, 07:50 AM	#27
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	Watch out even with the weak ammonia solutions. Caustics (bases) are very damaging to the cornea compared to even acids. The base saponifies the fat in the cornea creating an acid and a soap. This makes the cornea cloudy and there are no treatments to make it clear again.

April 24, 2008, 09:29 AM	#29
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	PhD, not an MD. Many years ago I worked as an EMT/Paramedic, and since then have been involved in all sorts of things involving chemicals, radiation, and electronics.

April 25, 2008, 10:36 AM	#31
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	BS Bull S**t MS More of the Same PhD Piled higher and Deeper General practitioner: Knows less and less about more and more till finally they know nothing about everything. Specialist: Knows more and more about less and less till finally they know everything about nothing. have you ever seen the plastic 'mushrooms' on rebar at a construction site? Ever wondered what happened to folks when they fell or jumped onto the rebar before OSHA required those? We cut the rebar off and took it and the patient to the ER. Luckily it did not hit anything terribly important on the way through.

April 25, 2008, 11:40 AM	#32
The Lovemaster Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 416	Funny you mention OSHA. I read an op-ed co-authored by Robert Crandall (ex-CEO of American Airlines) that the FAA and many other agencies (OSHA being one) have actually not improved safety. Example - FAA got wood for American and forced it to cancel thousands of MD-80 flights, thus forcing many people to take cars on a trip originally planned for planes. Driving being much more dangerous than flying, the FAA actually made things less safe. Regarding the mushroom caps, have you ever actually seen anyone trip and fall onto a rebar? Not me, not in 22 years in this here bidness. Count me among the guys who like the smell of Hoppe's No. 9. Heck it's so sexy, I even turn myself on! Now back to the topic. Sorry. Scott

April 25, 2008, 12:09 PM	#33
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	"Example - FAA got wood for American and forced it to cancel thousands of MD-80 flights, thus forcing many people to take cars on a trip originally planned for planes. Driving being much more dangerous than flying, the FAA actually made things less safe." The back story is that the FAA gave American months to perform the inspections. American just did not get around to the work, and when congress starting breathing down the FAAs back they told American to get the checks done NOW. "Regarding the mushroom caps, have you ever actually seen anyone trip and fall onto a rebar? Not me, not in 22 years in this here bidness." The story I have above is true. A worker jumped/fell from one deck of a building to another and impaled himself on a piece of #4 rebar. It entered in the perineum and exited in the lower back. Tore up the intestine pretty bad, but missed all the major blood vessels. We arrived to the guy just standing there unable to get himself off the rebar since it extended about 3 feet above his head. I saw a couple other smaller impalements also, usually a forearm or hand.