At what point is the rifle itself not accurate?

[Jay24bal]

Here is my deal: I picked up a new 308 Win. in the early part of this year. Since then I have tried 4 different powders and 3 different bullets trying to find a good load for the gun. So far, the best loads I have come up with are about .7-.8 MOA. Most of them are around .9-1.2 MOA (including the few factory rounds I fired when it was new to function check as I always run a couple boxes of factory ammo through a new gun to remove the variable of my loads in case something is wrong).

Now, some will say that .75 MOA groups are nothing to laugh at and that I should be happy, but I am not. By comparison, my 4 other centerfire bolt action rifles will put out .3-.5 groups (not every time obviously, but they are clearly capable of doing so, usually 3-4 out of 10 groups I shoot will measure in that range and the others are all still under 1 MOA).

So at what point do you concede that gun will just not be a tack-driver and a re-barrel or trade/sale may be in order?

[bfoosh006]

Frankly, it sounds like you have reached that point.

If the rifle is not performing as well as you expect, then follow your own comments.

Re-barrel or sell it.

My 10/22 was like this... re-barreled and new trigger.... it is now boringly accurate.

[AllenJ]

What brand/model rifle are we talking about here? What powders and bullets have you tried? What brand cases are you using and what prep do you do to them? The more information you can provide the better this issue can be diagnosed.

[buck460XVR]

To me, accuracy is relative to what the gun's purpose is. If your .308 produces groups that small(.7-.8), is in a platform that you prefer and is used for hunting deer to ranges of 300 yards or less, I don't see a problem. If you are using it for competition and know of other guns with better potential, then there is a problem.

Coupla years ago, my oldest son was considering buying a deer rifle from a mutual friend. After shooting it @ 200 yards off the bench, he discovered that it was much more accurate than his old rifle and was ready to buy it. I then suggested he shoot it offhand as he would most likely do in a hunting scenario. Could have been the fit of the gun or just that he was used to his old gun, but he was much more accurate standing and shooting freehand with his old gun than with the other. He passed on the other gun and still hunts deer with the old one.


That said, if you are unhappy, nothing any of us say here will change your mind. Your priorities and use are different than ours and what we would do is really irrelevant. Whether to re-barrel or sell, to me, would depend on the firearm. I would also consider other options such as trigger work or stock work that may change POI. You don't mention the brand or platform, just caliber. Some guns are notorious for some shortcomings and are an easy fix. Some guns are known to be just so-so in the accuracy department and some guns just shoot to their price point. A $250 Handi-rifle is different than a high-end semi-custom.

[Bart B.]

I think most folks think their rifle's no longer accurate when it shoots proper test groups 50% larger than it did when new. For a benchrester, they may rebarrel when their 100-yard groups open up to 3/10 inch. A dangerous game hunter will rebarrel his 50 caliber double rifle when it shoots 2 inch groups at 50 yards instead of 1 inch ones when new. A deer hunter may rebarrel his .30-06 when it shoots 2 inches at 100 yards when it shot a little over an inch when new. It's a personal thing and we all have our standards.

Every rifle shooter has expectations of how his rifle should shoot. If it doesn't "live" up to expectations, it gets fixed or replaced.

All rifles (from one-hole benchrest to Kentucky black powder ones) have variables in their ammo as well as themselves. To say nothing about the variables in the way they're held; us humans are usually the biggest one.

When all those variables add up in the same direction, the group of X number of shots will be very big. When the variables are all zero or cancel each other out for several shots, all those bullets will go through the same tiny hole a few thousandths bigger than bullet diameter.

When you shoot several groups, if they all are not within 10% extreme spread of each other, there's not enough shots in the group to represent what the rifle's true accuracy is all the time. If you shoot ten 5-shot groups, about half will be close to average size, one-fourth will be smaller and one-fourth will be larger than average.

Most rifle shooters use the emotional method to judge accuracy, the smallest group(s) shot. To be statistically significant and see what the furthest your shot will miss the aiming point, use the biggest group shot. If four 5-shot groups are shot on four separate targets then overlayed to plot where all twenty went, that twenty-shot composite will be bigger than the largest single 5-shot group.

If a rifle and ammo (plus the shooter, of course) shoots five groups with one load measuring 2, 4, 5, 6 and 8 units and another five groups with another load measuring 3, 4, 5, 5 and 6 units, Which load's the most accurate? Which load will miss your point of aim the least when it shoots the worst round for accuracy.

I think the groups you're getting are very normal for any load to produce with several few-shot groups.

There's six rules that top level competors use to get best accuracy;

1. Use reloading tools and techniques that do not let the bullet be deformed upon entering the rifling.

2. Full length size all bottleneck cases reducing fired case dimensions only a thousandth or two.

3. Use bullets a few to several ten-thousandths larger than groove diameter.

4. Use extruded powder; ball powders are not popular among winners and record setters.

5. Make sure the rifle and yourself are very repeatable in all they do holding the rifle and shooting the round for every shot fired. The shooter is typically the least repeatable of everything.

6. Shoot enough shots per group testing each load to have it be statistically significant. One 30-shot group's about 10 times better than the average of ten 3-shot groups.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

In addition to everything Bart B said, there are the mechanics of the rifle in question to be addressed.

Is the action properly bedded in the stock?
Is the stock flexing or touching the barrel?
Is the barrel free floated or pressure bedded?
Are the sights/scope and mounts known to be good, and properly tightened?

[trg42wraglefragle]

I do not consider my 22lr to be accurate, I cannot get it to shoot under an inch at 50 yards with any ammo. But I'm not to worried, as for the hunting I do with it, it is more than accurate enough and for practising off hand shooting, it is still more than accurate enough.

If it was the gun I was attempting to shoot tiny groups of shoot things over 100 yards with, I would say it wasn't accurate enough and would start to get annoyed with it. I had an old sporterized Lee Enfield which was a 2moa gun at best, but I only ever used it for hunting in some pretty tight bush, so it didn't really matter.

Now if my Varmint gun can't consistently get close to .5moa I begin to think something may need changing, or I need to do some more load development.

Depends on the usage. Yes it can be nice to know your rifle in capable of tiny groups, but if it's your deer rifle for 300 yard max shooting, then it's not really worth getting to worried about.

[Mike38]

Depends on the rifle. If it’s a $400 off the shelf gun with a $100 scope, your 0.7 MOA is fine. If it’s a $3000 custom built with a $1000 scope on it, something is wrong. Maybe keep trying more loads?

With that said, I have a NEF Handi Rifle that I paid $230 for new 15 years ago. It has a $80 scope I bought from WalMart on it. With my reloads it will shoot 0.44 MOA. Now I have tried no less then 40 combinations of powder / bullet before finding this accuracy. On the other hand, I have a custom built Remington 700 that I paid $3300 for and it has a Leupold VX3 on it. Best I can get with it is just a touch under 1 MOA, and that must have been when the stars were all lined up just right, because it has been difficult for me to reproduce. But, I have only tried 7 or 8 bullet / powder combinations. I should keep trying I guess.

[603Country]

Seems like all the important info has been relayed to the OP. I think it all comes down to whether or not he really likes the rifle. If not,replace it. If he does like the rifle, then spend some money on it and get the action squared up, replace the trigger (maybe) with a Timney or other, and a new stock or bed the present stock. Or...just get a Tikka. That's not something I'd have said prior to buying my Tikka T3 Lite, but I will sure say it now. Happiness is just $600 away. Now somebody is gonna say that the Tikka has a Tupperware stock and a plastic trigger guard and plastic magazine. Well, yes, but it sure will shoot.

[Mobuck]

I had a customer bring a one year old Savage .223 HB in to my business and tell me it was worn out. I thought "Yeah, sure it is" but some careful cleaning and checking indicated that it really was worn out. The first 1/2-3/4" of the rifling was almost totally gone.
I asked how much he'd shot it and he replied 10K. I took it in trade for a new rifle and got a couple of seasons out of it as my Son's deer rifle using 70grain semispitzers loaded way out.
I've never worn out a barrel on a personal rifle but I know it's possible. As the "junior" member of the rifle team, I got the hand me downs and finished off a couple of those-beyond the competitive level anyway.

[Jay24bal]

Thanks for the replies guys.

As for some of the questions:

It is not a high-end rifle that guarantees 1/2 MOA or anything. It is a Savage Axis, pillar bedded in Boyd's stock. The barrel is free floating (by quite a bit). It is wearing a Vortex Viper Scope (that is known to be good and true).

As for the reloading specifics, I have tried Varget, IMR 4064, IMR 4895, and Reloader 15. I have tried 155 gr A-Max, 165 gr SMKs and 175gr SMKs. The brass (Federal) is being full length resized. Each of the different combinations I tried had best sizes pretty much the same (which also leads me to believe this really is the best the gun can do). I shoot 5 shot groups during load work ups.

When it comes to my technique and shooting position, it was shot from a bench with a bipod every time, on the same rear bag for every shot. I obviously do my best to repeat my head/hand placement on the gun every shot. While I am absolutely not the greatest shot nor even a competition level shooter, I know I am capable of shooting better than .75 MOA groups as it happens with my other guns every range trip.

I realize that my accuracy goals may not be easy to achieve with the given gun (but they are possible as my .223 Axis will do it), but I was more just curious as to when other people concede that it may just not be a tack driver, not so much on getting into the nitty-gritty of high-end reloading.

Here in OH, we are not allowed to hunt deer with a .308 Win, so my only purpose of owning the gun is target shooting. The only other animal I hunt with a rifle is coyote and a .308 Win is a bit of overkill for that.

I will most likely keep the gun, and just pick up a different rifle for longer range target shooting and try and get that one down to under 1/2 MOA (I'm thinking something in the 6.5 flavor). Plus it is always helpful to have a gun on hand to lend a buddy at the range as I tend to take friends shooting who only own a gun or two and not worry about sending extra rounds through my "nice" guns (and I only have $350 into it even with the stock).

Thanks for the replies all.

[Jay24bal]

And yes, I realize that all the time and effort I put into trying to shoot 1/2 MOA with a Savage Axis is a bit like putting lipstick on a pig, but I love it. For me, most of the joy in reloading is trying to wring out every bit of accuracy from a gun. And it is incredibly rewarding to shoot the same size groups as guys running $1,500+ guns as the range

So in the end, I had fun going through the process of trying to find that magic load, and I will have fun doing it for the next gun (granted, it will most likely not be an Axis this time). I still say they are the best value in the "entry-level" rifle game.

[Brotherbadger]

Sounds to me like you have a standard, and that barrel is not living up to your expectations. You've done just about EVERYTHING one could reasonably expect to try to get it to get to your standards. I'd either sell it or re-barrel it.

[Bart B.]

What if the ammo used ain't all that good?

[green_MTman]

your still shooting better than 90% of the general public.

are you doing 1000yd match competitions

[trg42wraglefragle]

The only other things that could be holding you back are the trigger and not having a good cheek weld.

It sound's as though you are not happy with it, and wont be, so may as well change it. Especially as it's not gun you can use for anything but target shooting.

I don't know how much you have spent on it already, but I would think twice about re barrelling it. Some folk have taken budget rifles, done what you've done as well as true the action and re barrelled them, but as you said yourself about the lipstick on a pig.......

I'd be inclined to sell it if I were you and by a something else. Tikka was mentioned here and I would certainly second that recommendation. You have to consider how much you end up spending on said rifle and what factory rifle you can buy for the same money.

[AllenJ]

but I was more just curious as to when other people concede that it may just not be a tack driver

You've tried 4 good powders and three good bullets. If you are confident that your reloading procedure is good enough then you've probably done all that can be done in terms of ammo. One thing I might try before giving up is to try different torque settings on your action screws. I've seen it make a difference at times with pillar bedded actions and since it only cost the ammo to test it is cheap compared to buying a new rifle.

[44 AMP]

At what point is the rifle itself not accurate?

When neither you, nor anyone else can hit the target with any ammo you try.

Other than that, its a matter of what your expectations are, and whether or not they are realistic.

maybe we are spoiled today, thanks to all the improvements in guns and ammo, or maybe we are all much better shots on the internet than on the range, I can't say. I grew up in an era where a lot of work was spent trying to get sporter rifles that would shoot MOA, and it was not always achievable.

A rifle and ammo combination that would shoot .7" groups was a pearl of great price, something to be valued. Its your call, your requirements, do as you see fit.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

I'm not a guru of the accuracy game (yet), but I've thought about your question a lot, and I think the answer is, "it depends upon your determination"... so probably "not yet" if you're determined and have a fair amount of time to test. It's all just a matter of how much time. If "not much time", like the average person, then it's time to move on and sell it. If you spend every extra minute on this hobby, it seems you ought to try at least 3-8 more combos of bullet, powder, & seating depths, since there are hundreds of thousands of possible combos and you've tried but a handful. You're "almost" to the give up point, even if very determined, seems to me, but not just quite yet.

It ain't the rings or action screws, I don't think, since the variance is so small. It's likely just not an uber-accurate rifle. But as others have mentioned, fiddle with seating depths (lands distance) primarily, since the other variables didn't change anything (powder, bullet). Sounds like the other stuff is all good and consistent, since you get great accuracy from the other rifles.

[Jay24bal]

Good point on COL. I have played with the seating depth a bit (only for the 175 gr SMKs) and did not see much of a difference.

At this point I think I may keep the gun. I only have $350 into it, and it is consistent. It can't hurt to have sub MOA .308 on hand, right? Maybe over the winter when I stuck inside and bored I will try some other combos.

Thanks guys.

[Unclenick]

A couple of quick thoughts. One is the bipod. Getting really tight groups with a bipod takes skill. Many sporting rifles with whippy stocks do best with the front bag under the magazine floor plate. Your stock shouldn't be like that, but it's worth a try. Read Bugholes from Bipod for technique hints.

The second is, when I have a barrel that just doesn't shoot, I try recrowning it. I saw an article by a couple of fellows who bought Dave Manson's crowning tools and wound up doing crowns for $15 for a dozen or so club members to help pay for it. They said about half the rifles shot tighter groups afterward, while the other half stayed the same. Small crown errors are common. It's easy to address, so it's worth doing it. The fancy tools are nice, but you can also just lap one in.

That link is to my write-up, for which I made a lap from a ball bearing. But M. L. McPherson just squares his muzzle with a file and square, then uses a marble as the lap. I'm less sanguine about the reliable precision of using bolt heads and variable speed drills, but many have had success that way. The method I describe takes less than 10 minutes after any squaring you might choose to do, so I don't see a reason for the power tools.

Per McPherson, what I've seen photos of is him shortening a barrel, so he has a hacksaw, the file, the square and the marble and lapping compound with him at the range. He is then tuning the rifle to the ammo, rather than the other way around. Read the Secrets of the Houston Warehouse. You may decide to try trimming your barrel to 21¾", the magic number from those experiments, IIRC (but read the article to verify that, as it's been awhile since I have). That trimming presents you with the opportunity to recrown at the same time.

Finally, I would be sure to have a systematic approach to finding loads. If you can access a 300 yard range and have a good spotting scope, the old Auddette ladder may serve you pretty well. These days I use Dan Newberry's method most of the time, because it works at 100 yards, where an Auddette ladder need more range to let you clearly identify vertical dispersion. If you shoot one of Newberry's OCW round robins, record which shot is which one on every target. Last year a member did that with a rifle he could not make shoot, and by noting that the first shots on each target were almost always highest and most left, and the last shot was almost always lowest and most right, we figured out heat walking was occurring in the barrel, messing up what would otherwise be good groups. At that point, replacing the barrel is probably best. You could also try cryo-treating.

Regarding group sizes, try overlaying groups as Bart suggested. Figure a single 5 shot group tells you 95% of future five shot groups will fall within about +50% and -33% of the size of that one group, as shown in the chart below as dotted blue lines, and that 5% of groups will fall outside those limits. As soon as you collect several groups and overlap them, you have a group with the sum of all those shots, and that shot number applies and the limits get much narrower. The reason this happens is that as you increase the number of shots in a group, you offer more opportunities for outliers to appear, if they are going to. If they don't, your confidence increases that they won't show up often, and that narrows the likely limits of the group size.

[Bart B.]

Last year a member did that with a rifle he could not make shoot, and by noting that the first shots on each target were almost always highest and most left, and the last shot was almost always lowest and most right, we figured out heat walking was occurring in the barrel, messing up what would otherwise be good groups. At that point, replacing the barrel is probably best. You could also try cryo-treating.

I'd get the receiver face squared up with the barrel tenon/chamber axis. The barrel's tenon shoulder may have to be cut back a couple thousandths then a shim of the right thickness put between it and the faced receiver so the barrel would clock in right to get the original headspace (and sights, if on the barrel) returned to the original place. Then subsequent barrels should no longer walk shot impact as they heat up.

[Unclenick]

That's a good idea. If it's not caused by asymmetrical stress in the barrel itself, asymmetrical thread tension is the most likely source of walking during heating.

Also, in my post I had meant to second your suggestion that a sling position be tried. I've got a couple of rifles that group best when fired from slinged-up prone, my accurized Garand, included.

[Art Eatman]

Per "Houston Warehouse", 21.75" is the magic number.

[Bart B.]

21.75" was right for his cartridge's barrel whip it made based on its resonant frequency and harmonics for the barrel time the load produced.

It's based on the following principles :

http://www.varmintal.com/alite.htm