Shotgun vs sub machine gun

Super-Dave · May 22, 2008, 11:00 AM

I am curious about when a shotgun would be a better choice than a full auto sub machine gun. I see swat teams all the time with some members with shotguns and others with submachine guns. I know the shotgun can be used for breaching but this is a more recent phenomenon.

Supposing a swat teams enters a building looking to clean out a bunch of armed dangerous thugs. If they knew in advance that the thugs did not have body armor. When would it be better for them to use shotguns vs submachineguns.

I know most swat teams have abandoned the 9mm, .40 submachine guns for the Ar-15 carbine due to over penetration issues. But even for them under what scenarios are you better off with the shotgun?

DMacLeod · May 22, 2008, 12:19 PM

An auto weapon is more controlable shot placement wise.

DMacLeod · May 22, 2008, 12:22 PM

By auto weapon I mean CAR-15 or similar. They have selective fire capability.

A shotgun with OO buck throws X number of projectiles for a single pull of the trigger.

davlandrum · May 22, 2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

abandoned the 9mm, .40 submachine guns for the Ar-15 carbine due to over penetration issues

Sorry, I am confused. Is the implication that a 9 mm sub gun does not over-penetrate as much as a .223 AR??

Glenn E. Meyer · May 22, 2008, 01:56 PM

Got the same thread going in Tactics.

mikenbarb · May 22, 2008, 04:31 PM

Is this for real Dave???? Do you really need to know what S.W.A.T. would use to clean out a building of armed thugs?????

oneounceload · May 22, 2008, 05:22 PM

Dave - you joining a SWAT team?? or afraid of one coming to your house??..time to take up yoga or fishing my friend....

.351winchester · May 23, 2008, 01:04 AM

Before the carbine .223 gained popularity (eventually 86-ing both these for the most part in SWAT except sub-specialized uses), the SMG was usually the default tactical team standard issue. This went back to when they were first designed as a support to bolt or auto battle rifles. shotguns were/are used and not just for blowing hinges, offering undisputable performance and less training than required to handle a subgun with lives at stake (i.e. an LEO that is surgical with uh-oh Buck, may not qualify the MP-5 as well in same conditions). I can't imagine non-lethal loads being used by SWAT going in after someone, but it allows that option.

SMGs and suppressors go together like peanut butter and jelly. That's a plus if you're busting up a meth lab where muzzle flash could ignite the air and fry everyone inside. Same for the 200 lb. Presas or Cane Corsos chained to the porch (not work for a Amphibian .22 if it came to that, get real). With bare muzzle, also on the quiet side.

In a hostage taking situation, and no sniper medulla shot available, most would be more comfortable with a MP-5 thumbed to the single bullet, than a shotgun even at close range- a .355 margin of error, vs. one palm sized, with the target peaking around an innocent.
Most SMGs are very compact and ideal sized long guns for indoor stuff, where a SG of same dimesnsions would be uncontrollable and too low capacity for a primary weapon (door openers aside).

Both there are close range meat grinders. A short .223 semi or w/3rd. burst onboard gives much better versatility. Including ammo selection that spans vest punching to those that lose it in building materials.

Super-Dave · May 23, 2008, 06:48 AM

Nope I am not joining a swat team. I am just curious on why swat teams still use a lot of shotguns if they have submachine guns. I know most is used for breaching, but many of them look like they are being used for other than breaching.

Also having played with a benneli super nova yesterday, I realized I really don't need one. Instead I will buy another mossberg 590 or remington 870, or a winchester speed pump.

Does anyone know if remington will ever make a 870 super magnum with a 18-20" barrell?

mikenbarb · May 23, 2008, 07:15 AM

Dave, Why not make one yourself and send it to briley for them to install choke tubes.

SDC · May 23, 2008, 07:46 AM

At most "gunfight ranges" (less than 20 feet), a shotgun is still going to put all of its payload into a circle less than 6 inches in diameter; with OO buckshot, that means 9 hits immediately (and therefore, an almost certain one-shot stop), with almost no chance of "shooting through" the target. Shotguns have their own particular issues, but lack of stopping power isn't one of them.

rugersp101 · May 23, 2008, 07:48 AM

I'll take my Thompson M1 over my shotgun any day. Higher capacity, big bore .45acp with a large choice of ammo styles, and combat proven in the absolute roughest conditions.

Cerick · May 26, 2008, 11:25 AM

If it were a hostage situation, you would pretty much be forced to go with a sub machinegun. Extreme accuracy is a must. Otherwise a shotgun would be boss, 9 pellets at once? Damage centeral.

May 22, 2008, 11:00 AM	#1
Super-Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 795	Shotgun vs sub machine gun I am curious about when a shotgun would be a better choice than a full auto sub machine gun. I see swat teams all the time with some members with shotguns and others with submachine guns. I know the shotgun can be used for breaching but this is a more recent phenomenon. Supposing a swat teams enters a building looking to clean out a bunch of armed dangerous thugs. If they knew in advance that the thugs did not have body armor. When would it be better for them to use shotguns vs submachineguns. I know most swat teams have abandoned the 9mm, .40 submachine guns for the Ar-15 carbine due to over penetration issues. But even for them under what scenarios are you better off with the shotgun? __________________ If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever. George Orwell

May 22, 2008, 01:56 PM	#5
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Got the same thread going in Tactics. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

May 22, 2008, 04:31 PM	#6
mikenbarb Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: N.J. Posts: 1,111	For real??? Is this for real Dave???? Do you really need to know what S.W.A.T. would use to clean out a building of armed thugs????? __________________ Mike B. Gun control= Being able to hit your target. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pifinnercircle

May 23, 2008, 06:48 AM	#9
Super-Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 795	Nope I am not joining a swat team. I am just curious on why swat teams still use a lot of shotguns if they have submachine guns. I know most is used for breaching, but many of them look like they are being used for other than breaching. Also having played with a benneli super nova yesterday, I realized I really don't need one. Instead I will buy another mossberg 590 or remington 870, or a winchester speed pump. Does anyone know if remington will ever make a 870 super magnum with a 18-20" barrell? __________________ If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever. George Orwell

May 23, 2008, 07:15 AM	#10
mikenbarb Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: N.J. Posts: 1,111	Dave, Why not make one yourself and send it to briley for them to install choke tubes. __________________ Mike B. Gun control= Being able to hit your target. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pifinnercircle

May 22, 2008, 12:19 PM	#2
DMacLeod Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2008 Location: Maine Posts: 425	An auto weapon is more controlable shot placement wise.

May 22, 2008, 12:22 PM	#3
DMacLeod Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2008 Location: Maine Posts: 425	By auto weapon I mean CAR-15 or similar. They have selective fire capability. A shotgun with OO buck throws X number of projectiles for a single pull of the trigger.

May 22, 2008, 05:22 PM	#7
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Dave - you joining a SWAT team?? or afraid of one coming to your house??..time to take up yoga or fishing my friend....

May 23, 2008, 01:04 AM	#8
.351winchester Junior member Join Date: December 31, 2005 Location: MI Posts: 1,013	Before the carbine .223 gained popularity (eventually 86-ing both these for the most part in SWAT except sub-specialized uses), the SMG was usually the default tactical team standard issue. This went back to when they were first designed as a support to bolt or auto battle rifles. shotguns were/are used and not just for blowing hinges, offering undisputable performance and less training than required to handle a subgun with lives at stake (i.e. an LEO that is surgical with uh-oh Buck, may not qualify the MP-5 as well in same conditions). I can't imagine non-lethal loads being used by SWAT going in after someone, but it allows that option. SMGs and suppressors go together like peanut butter and jelly. That's a plus if you're busting up a meth lab where muzzle flash could ignite the air and fry everyone inside. Same for the 200 lb. Presas or Cane Corsos chained to the porch (not work for a Amphibian .22 if it came to that, get real). With bare muzzle, also on the quiet side. In a hostage taking situation, and no sniper medulla shot available, most would be more comfortable with a MP-5 thumbed to the single bullet, than a shotgun even at close range- a .355 margin of error, vs. one palm sized, with the target peaking around an innocent. Most SMGs are very compact and ideal sized long guns for indoor stuff, where a SG of same dimesnsions would be uncontrollable and too low capacity for a primary weapon (door openers aside). Both there are close range meat grinders. A short .223 semi or w/3rd. burst onboard gives much better versatility. Including ammo selection that spans vest punching to those that lose it in building materials.

May 23, 2008, 07:46 AM	#11
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	At most "gunfight ranges" (less than 20 feet), a shotgun is still going to put all of its payload into a circle less than 6 inches in diameter; with OO buckshot, that means 9 hits immediately (and therefore, an almost certain one-shot stop), with almost no chance of "shooting through" the target. Shotguns have their own particular issues, but lack of stopping power isn't one of them. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

May 23, 2008, 07:48 AM	#12
rugersp101 Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2008 Location: Rest-home,Virginia Posts: 215	I'll take my Thompson M1 over my shotgun any day. Higher capacity, big bore .45acp with a large choice of ammo styles, and combat proven in the absolute roughest conditions.

May 26, 2008, 11:25 AM	#13
Cerick Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2008 Location: 973, NJ Posts: 345	If it were a hostage situation, you would pretty much be forced to go with a sub machinegun. Extreme accuracy is a must. Otherwise a shotgun would be boss, 9 pellets at once? Damage centeral.