ATF Project Gunrunner

[Hardcase]

The hearing is on Oversight of the Justice Department. As it happens, Fast and Furious is the big scandal going on, but this isn't a hearing specifically on the topic.

The Chairmen mentioned two particular topics. F&F was one. The recusal of Associate Justice Kagan from any case involving health care legislation is the other. But for the purposes of the committee, it's not an all-inclusive list.

[C0untZer0]

I don't know if anyone noticed this but Holder is talking out both sides of his mouth.

On the one hand he attributes violence in Mexico to guns from the U.S. on the other hand, with the help of Cohen, he says that the Mexicans who killed Agent Terry "probably would have had those guns anyway."

Which way is it Holder?

If they have the capability of getting guns anyway, then we really don't need to bother with tightening gun laws here right?

[C0untZer0]

Thanks Hardcase,

I saw the caption "Federal Gun Smuggling Sting Operation" and it led me to believe that these hearing were all about F&F.

The C-SPAN announcer actually calls it the "hearings on Fast and Furious."

[MTT TL]

Mexicans who killed Agent Terry "probably would have had those guns anyway."

Technically that is another straight up lie as his people approved the sale.

[BGutzman]

Nothing like the fed breaking the laws in a manner with blatant disregard for life and then passing laws to restrict citizens who werent even guilty of the crime in the first place......

I know some other groups that think this way..... If these people werent in our government we would have a different name for them.....

[Hardcase]

During this hearing, two points came to my mind, for what they're worth.

The first is that it appears that the Department of Justice is not particularly interested in upholding Constitutional Rights. Its interest is in projecting the current administration's policies in such a way that Constitutional and other legal issues are either avoided or obfuscated. Thus, we have a case such as the First Amendment issue raised (a web site domain was seized for a year) and, of course, the regular chipping away at the Second Amendment. The Constitution places limits on the government - the DoJ, rather than observing those limits, seeks to reduce them. It's probably not fair to just pick on the DoJ in this regard - I suspect that any government agency, from towns to the feds, would rather not be limited by certain Constitutional requirements. But since the DoJ is so closely related to our Constitution, they certainly deserve special scrutiny.

The second is that a lot of noise was made about the ease of purchasing significant numbers of "assault" weapons by individuals. The claim appears to be that all sorts of weapons are going over the border due to significant purchases by straw buyers. Now, if nothing else, Fast and Furious should have provided some data on just how widespread the problem is, given that known straw buyers were doing their thing with ATF blessing. So, just how many straw buyers were there? Not how many straw purchases were made, but just how many straw buyers there were. It seems that nobody has asked that question. I suspect that there were a lot of purchases by a very few people who were already known to be straw buyers or who became known and were allowed to keep buying. I just haven't seen any convincing evidence that straw buyers are flooding the Mexican border with weapons (other than, of course, those sanctioned by the ATF.)

[hogdogs]

I was doing "gampa duty" when the feed ended... is it over for today or in recess as screen shot states?

The top of page has been saying "Eric Holder Dec. 9th" all along... is there more tomorrow or is that a typo?
http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fa...ious/live.html

Brent

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Sensenbrenner threatens impeachment if DoJ doesn't start cooperating with F&F investigation: http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/08/se...ious-response/

[alan]

Heard some of Holder's "testimony". what a crock.

Re post # 1656, and Sensenbrenner's threat, I had thought that he was a big supporter of the "ATF". Was or am I wrong?

[ltc444]

Hardcase amen on point one.

The committee has allready been briefed on where the bulk of the weapons are coming from. The Commander SOCOM stated that the majority of weapons were coming from the Military stocks in Central America.

Most of those weapons sold to the respictive countries through the Forgein Military Sales Office of the Pentagon and the State Department.

How else would they be getting M16s, M60s, LAWS, RPGs and M2s.

Therefore, the stats on the percentage of weapons coming from the US could be correct. Their only problem is that they cannot blame it on FFL dealers in the US.

[csmsss]

Their only problem is that they cannot blame it on FFL dealers in the US.

That's just it. They don't need to. All they need say is that the weapons came from the U.S. and a willingly gullible media and unfortunately ignorant American public will fill in the blanks themselves to the tune of the guns must be coming through gun shows and FFL's.

[MTT TL]

a willingly gullible media

I am not so sure about this anymore. The same CBS that swallowed the "Bush Military Records" was the first to report F&F being confirmed for political gain. It remains to be seen. I imagine some (such as MSNBC) will tote the party line but probably not all.

[Don P]

The Senator on the old idiot box yesterday morning stated that his thought and opinion on the whole mess was a under the radar attack on the 2nd amendment buy the administration. He was one of the Senators on the investigating committee. It was on Fox news morning show

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Rep. Issa has announced he received a bunch more emails on Fast and Furious yesterday evening.

The significance of this is that DOJ claimed it had already released the relevant information to the committee, so if he is getting more information it signals that either DOJ is suddenly more cooperative OR that someone within DOJ is providing emails that DOJ hasn't released.

Could be interesting...

[C0untZer0]

I know it's in the the thread here somewhere, but I forgot what was said about a special procecutor.

Can someone remind me of what needs to happen to appoint a SP ?

[zxcvbob]

Can someone remind me of what needs to happen to appoint a SP ?

All it requires is for the Attorney General to appoint one. Or the President could go over his head and do the appointment. (You can see why both of those are non-starters here.)

I think any grand jury foreman could take it upon him/herself to investigate -- kind of an ersatz special prosecutor. Good luck being taken seriously tho'.

[C0untZer0]

Thanks... I forgot.

When you have an AG who's more than willing to use the agencies of the U.S. against the American people, that's definately a loophole in the process. A loophole big enough to drive the space shuttle through - as Hank Johnson would say.

Just watching the proceedings yesterday, I'm already tired of the high drama. I know Holder is going to have to return before Issa's committee, but doing this via committee is so tiring. I'm not sure who sits on Issa's committee, but from what I saw yesterday it just leads to a lot of drama.

[Hardcase]

The significance of this is that DOJ claimed it had already released the relevant information to the committee, so if he is getting more information it signals that either DOJ is suddenly more cooperative OR that someone within DOJ is providing emails that DOJ hasn't released.

Perhaps I misheard him, but I thought that AG Holder said that there could be additional emails and papers that would not be released because (and here I'm a little fuzzy) he did not believe that the Committee was entitled to receive them.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Perhaps I misheard him, but I thought that AG Holder said that there could be additional emails and papers that would not be released because (and here I'm a little fuzzy) he did not believe that the Committee was entitled to receive them.

No, he did say that. The Obama Administration has withheld some of the requested material on the grounds of executive privilege. In fact, I believe that is what set off Sensenbrenner... he was pointing out that Congress was getting tired of asking for information it had been requesting since Jaunary 2011 and that if Congress started impeaching DOJ officials, it would take all the legal wrangling about what DOJ would and would not share off the table.

Then magically later that night, Issa has more documents. To me it looks like either the DOJ released more documents (though I doubt that they released all of them and I'd bet money that they withheld documents that they planned to release only after arm-twisting) or that one of the people testifying has started cooperating with the Judiciary Committee.

[Hardcase]

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/09/co...older-obliges/

Representative Hank Johnson puts the blame for Fast and Furious on the US Senate, for failing to confirm an ATF head, leaving the agency "rudderless". Further, he blames the "Second Amendment, NRA, Republican Tea Party movement" for manufacturing a controversy over Fast and Furious "which was initiated during the Bush administration."

As far as those responsible, he says that reassignments and personnel actions have been taken. And he has no reason to doubt anything that the Attorney General has said to this point.

That's from the video. What he said in committee was quite different, except for characterizing the NRA as one of the "Second Amendment rights radicals." Representative Issa took pretty strong exception to that, but I found it kind of funny in a dark sort of way. One never hears of "First Amendment radicals" or "Fifth Amendment radicals" or, really, any other Amendment radicals. Heck, there are probably more Twenty First Amendment radicals than Second Amendment radicals, and there are far more folks improperly exercising their 21st Amendment rights than their Second (although, to be fair, the first 12 obviously have greater significance than the remainder. Still...)

[Armorer-at-Law]

As far as those responsible, he says that reassignments and personnel actions have been taken.

They were given promotions.

[Chaz88]

(although, to be fair, the first 12 obviously have greater significance than the remainder. Still...)

That is quite a statement considering the significance of most of the ones that followed the 12th. Particularly the 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, and 19th

[HarrySchell]

Rep. Hank Johnson also was exceptionally worried, in a different committee meeting early this year, that the island of Guam would capsize because the US military planned to put a lot more people there.

This concept, that Guam would capisize, is just one of several similarly creative and interesting concerns bedeviling Mr. Johnson.

[Hardcase]

That is quite a statement considering the significance of most of the ones that followed the 12th. Particularly the 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, and 19th

Yes, it was poorly worded - I was attempting to point out their significance as the Bill of Rights. For the most part, while the rest of the amendments are most certainly quite significant, most of them act to extend the rights expressed in the first twelve to everyone. The 16th is sort of an anomaly...not unimportant, just an anomaly.

[MTT TL]

Perhaps I misheard him, but I thought that AG Holder said that there could be additional emails and papers that would not be released because (and here I'm a little fuzzy) he did not believe that the Committee was entitled to receive them.

If you want idea of what they released initially take a look at this:
While funny it has testimony in it too, and Holder was down right insulting (5:19):

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...--mexico-grift

As far as those responsible, he says that reassignments and personnel actions have been taken.

It is true. Those who blew the whistle were punished and moved. Those who kept their mouths shut and lied were moved up.