Does shell length in an O/U matter? New B-day present

[S_Constitutionist]

Hey -
I have never been extremely into scatterguns, but I grew up shooting my dad's old Ithaca semi 20ga. I got a new Stevens Goldwing 512 .410 O/U for my 21st birthday a few days ago. Truth be told, I would have preferred a 12 or 20ga, but my GF is 100 lbs and I want her to go shooting with me.

I went trap shooting for the first time on Sunday. I didnt hit much using #6 2 1/2" shells out of it (10 - 50.. lol), but it handled well and I had a lot of fun. (With the 20ga using #7.5 I was considerably more successful). I know that its considered an expert's only gun, but it was a gift from my father and I cant bring myself to trade it. I figure that if I can get good with it, I will be able to hit anything with a 12ga when it times to actually give bird hunting a try.

I searched the manual and the barrel, but I cannot find any thing that mentions which shell lengths to use. I have seen shells available in both 2 1/2 and 3". Being that it is an O/U, I do not see why it would matter at all but, I wanted to ask the experts. I would like to keep 3" 000 buck loads in it for home defense.

Thanks for your time!

[hogdogs]

Shotguns do have a chamber then forcing cone then bore.... size does matter. If the gun is under 30 years old, the barrel WILL be roll stamped for bore size and shell length... But you used 6 when you should have 7 1/2 or 8. not enuff pellets to handicap the reduced shell size thus payload. To top it off, a .410 is a tuff mutha to score well on a clay field. Had you grown up behind the .410 you would have scored higher but to top a 20 or 12 side by side takes a helluva shooter...
NO ROOM FOR ERROR!
Brent

[oneounceload]

If you were shooting at a gun club, I doubt they would appreciate you using #6. Most clubs allow nothing larger than 7-1/2

As to the chamber, the gun will be marked on the barrel, or at least in the owner's manual, what it will digest.

If you are going to shoot clays with a 410, my advice would be to get off the trap field and onto the skeet field where the 410 can really shine

[S_Constitutionist]

Thanks for the advice. The gun was purchased brand new a few weeks ago - I'll have to take a closer look and really scour the barrel.

Yes, we were shooting at a gun club. I didnt realize until after we had left (and read on the internet) that #6 wasnt acceptable for the purpose. I doubt we irritated anyone though, we were several stations down from the nearest shooters and shooting on our own. I made it very clear to people that I talked to that it was my first time and I had no idea what I was doing. The gentleman who owned the place was friendly enough in giving advice, but the majority of people I talked to were somewhat rude and just sort of scoffed at me and my "cheap gun". I sincerely hope that the people I met werent very representative of the sporting community as a whole... Despite all of that - like I said, I still had a great time (even though I didnt hit much )

The owner gave me his card and charges $25/hr for 1 on 1 lessons. I think I'll need to take him up on that.

[hogdogs]

It is not the fellow shooters that worry about the large pellets... The range houses etc. are possibly hit but worse I understand these clubs are often on small plots of ground where the larger pellet may leave the property to end up in populated surrounds. Your score suffered as the pellets leave too many voids in the pattern that a disc can sneak thru...
As a redneck giving advise not requested...
Go to your favorite gun store if they will make deals... Buy several cases of dirt doves and a few cases of shotshells. Cover all the sizes of guns you own... and a cheap hand thrower or if yer high class, a mechanical slinger... Take these to your favorite, safe plot of land and swing that .410 and other guns until yer sore... than when you reappear at the gun club you will look like the ceramic disc gods pooped skills all over you in yer sleep...
DISCLAIMER: I have never shot at a club as I am a cheap ass and them ceramic disc gods can't find me to crap on me
Brent

[zippy13]

The Goldwing 512 .410 has 3" chambers.

Oneounceload is correct, as usual, using #6 shot at a gun club range usually violates the rules because of safety reasons. Shotgun range safety zones are determined by the maximum range of #7 1/2 shot, and #6 has a greater range.

Small framed .410s can be fun, but they are very difficult to shoot well consistently. Because of their low relative inertia, they don't swing very smoothly, and will come off target in a heart beat. Comp .410 events are ruled by 12-ga O/Us with .410 tubes. The heavy tubed guns swing very smoothly and stay on target.

To compound the small gun's inherent instability, the Goldwing 512 uses an unusually short barrel. Forty years ago, 26" barrels were in vogue for 12-ga skeet guns.These days they are typically 28 - 30". But, even back in the short barrel days, the little .410 U/Os usually had 28"+ barrels. Since the "standard" 12-ga Goldwing 512 comes with 28" barrels, it would seem logical for the .410 version to have 30"+ barrels. But, Savage/Stevens selected to go the other way, and provide 26" barrels on their .410s. The short barrels my look aesthetically correct on the scaled down version of the 512; however, this results in a gun that's going to give even the best shooters significant difficulty.

[BigJimP]

I'm a little surprised noone at the club told you, you could not shoot any shells with shot over size 7 1/2's - and usually the club rules are posted as well.

Its too bad some of the guys were rude to you - it shouldn't be that way. They shouldn't care what gun you shoot - or what gague you shoot. You paid for your targets - if you want to shoot them with a .410 it would make no difference to me - as long as you were safe and following the etiquette of the game and the club rules. Shooting Trap isn't like Golf - where in golf, if you're really bad, it will hold the group up and its an issue - in Trap, everyone gets to load one shell, shoot one shell - loss or dead bird - it takes the same amount of time.

On the other hand - shooting a .410 at Trap will not give you the best results. I've tried it - with mixed results - but 17 or 18 would be a good Trap score in my opinion with a .410 out of 25.

Like others told you - it's a big safety issue on whether your gun has a 3" or a 2 1/2" chamber ( my .410 O/U is a 2 1/2" chamber ). You really need to make sure your shells are properly sized for your gun.

Trap, Skeet and Sporting clays shooters - all like to have a rythum to their squad when they are shooting. If a new shooter disrupts that rythum - there are guys that will not want to shoot with you. They will get especially aggravated if someone can't operate the gun, takes too long to call for their target, is moving around when they are shooting, etc - but as experienced shooters, all of us need to remember we were newbies once too / and someone took the time to educate us - help us with the etiquette, help us with our hold points, foot position, etc. It would have been much better at that club - if the owner or one of the experienced shooters had taken the time to walk you out to the field, get you set up, help you out a little - and then turn you loose. Maybe it will be better next time - but some of the rudest shooters I see - are experienced ...and its too bad. And every now and then, as experienced shooters, we need to make room on our squads for new shooters.

Show the other shooters courtesy - stand still and be quiet when someone else is shooting, watch your gun handling, listen a lot, talk very little - and I think there will be some squads that will be happy to have you shoot with them.

The .410 is not just a gun for experts. Since it has relatively few pellets in the pattern - good solid breaks are more difficult. I also don't think shooting the .410 will make you a better 12ga shooter - no matter what gague you are shooting - its all about the gun fit and the fundamentals of shooting moving targets ( find it, focus on it, track it, kill it, and follow thru ) - if you don't follow-thru it will be a miss most of the time. The shot starts when you pull the trigger / but it doesn't end until you follow-thru.

Only the strongest minded shooters - the ones with real mental toughness - can convince themselves to shoot the .410 just like a 12ga - and every time they chip a target - not start talking to themselves. I own some state sporting clays titles in 28ga - and won my share of 12 and 20ga events / but never in a .410 ( because I talk to myself too much )... but its between my ears ( not the fault of the gun )...

[Regolith]

but the majority of people I talked to were somewhat rude and just sort of scoffed at me and my "cheap gun". I sincerely hope that the people I met werent very representative of the sporting community as a whole.

Unfortunately, that sort of elitism is fairly common amongst trap and skeet shooters, though I don't believe it's a trait of the majority.

There is a guy on another forum I frequent (he may be a member here, too, though I've never seen him post) who makes a lot of money using old beat up guns to out-score guys with $2000+ O/U's or SxS's. They apparently sneer at him right up until he starts breaking more clays than they do.

[S_Constitutionist]

Thank you all for the kind words and advice. The nearest -anything- was several (at least 5-6) miles down range. Perhaps this is why they never asked to see my ammo or told me what was what... But I still would have like to have been told.
I completely understand what you mean about the lightweight/short barrel. Having never shot at a moving target before, I quickly noticed how difficult it was to make small corrections - any movement would translate into much more barrel movement than I desired. Handling my dad's 20ga made this much more evident (although im sure the wider pattern didnt hurt also).

The only posted rules were: only 1 loaded shell at a time, muzzles always down range, treat all guns as if they are loaded, etc.

The rest, I had to learn by sitting and watching a few rounds of very experienced shooters. I asked a few questions ("Why do they shift down after 5 shots? What does handicap and 16 yrd mean? etc), and got a few short answers. During this time I observed some basic etiquette: leaving the action open while waiting, not shouldering until the previous shooter had fired, firing order, etc.
I went in and paid for my clays and was given a few stickers - no one told me what to do with these, so I waited until a few others emerged and gave theirs to a fellow sitting on a couch behind the line (he just stuck them on a clip board without saying anything). They then proceeded down to an empty station and began shooting. I did the same, and walked down to an empty station, walked up to the line, chambered a round and confidently yelled "PULL!". Nothing happened... "PULL!" Again, nothing... "PULL!"... lol I must have yelled it 5 or 6 times when an older fellow walking behind me yelled at me that I had to turn the machine on. I broke the action open and walked back to the switch as he called me a dumbass . I explained to him that I didnt know what I was doing as he walked away - he never turned around.

After things got going, I was having a great time (missing). A buddy of mine showed up to join me, and I was showing him how to operate the action (he'd only ever shot pumps) while I was standing on the line. At this point, I didnt realize that the trap house was automated - I must have flung 15 clays down range throughout the course of my conversation - I was yelled at by some passers by (I paid for them later). lol

Afterward, I was standing outside of the pro-shop enjoying a cigarette with a big ole' smile on my face. A few of the older guys were smoking as well, so I decided to share my screw up with them. 2 of them just gave me a dirty look while shaking their head, and the other told me that "maybe I should learn a thing or two before trying to come out here and show off with my garage-sale gun". ??? Maybe they were shooting worse than I did that day or something.

I will say that it was pretty intimidating to walk out there without a clue about what to do other than what I saw. Im not sure why the owner didnt give me a little more instruction after I told him that it was my first time, but I guess everyone has a "first day".

I sure wish some of you all would have been out there instead. lol

[zippy13]

Sadly, phono-pull systems have been used to reduce labor costs at clubs across the country. The upside is they give more accurate pulls if used correctly. For all newbies, if the club doesn't have designated welcomers, the management should provided a trap boy until you had things figured out.

Something that's infrequently mentioned: Gun "clubs" come in several varieties; commercially operated, public operated and member operated. Staffers may be paid or volunteers. Member operated clubs may or may not be open to the public. Understandably, newbies may be treated differently at the different types of clubs.

Most clubs constantly fight to reduce shrinkage (targets tossed, but not paid for). An increase in shrinkage usually means an increase in club dues and/or target fees.
If you were chatting on the field and it caused targets to be triggered (even if you paid extra later) you probably upset a lot of the regulars. Also, if the club was busy, your chatting meant others would have to wait longer for their turn to shoot. And, sharing a gun is typically not done on the trap field because it slows down the action, too.

Shooting sports, like many of life's activities, have unwritten rules of etiquette. It seems you unwittingly violated enough of them to upset the locals. The church door doesn't have a sign saying, "No loud snoring during the services," but...

[.45 COLT]

First thing I'd do would be find a different club. The attitudes you describe aren't the norm among Trap shooters, although I've come across a few "Elitist" clubs. They can suck the fun right out of the sport. Asking $25/Hr to teach you something - Guy must figure he's the reincarnation of D. Lee Braun. Most shooters are only too happy to help a new shooter - for free.

A pretty good primer on Trapshooting Fundamentals can be found HERE.

DC

[RoscoeC]

Asking $25/Hr to teach you something - Guy must figure he's the reincarnation of D. Lee Braun. Most shooters are only too happy to help a new shooter - for free.

You are absolutely correct that you can get a lot of shooters to help a new shooter for free. However, with that said, you never know what you are getting. A lot of folks think that just because they own a shotgun and have shot a few rounds of trap they are experts. If we are talking showing you etiquette, and the rules of the game, etc. then I agree, that should probably be at no charge. If he is teaching you shotgun technique and he knows anything at all $25.00 an hour is the bargain of the century.

[S_Constitutionist]

Im sure I did ruffle a few feathers, but there were still several open stations the whole time I was shooting. I dont think I ruined anyone's day, but I understand what you are staying.

I wrote a letter to the club giving them a bit of constructive customer feedback and suggestions. Their website mentions several times that they are very open and helpful to newcomers, yet I didnt see that. I figured that they (or the owner) would like to know what it was like for someone completely new to be at their facility.

Hopefully some of my ideas will be implemented and other people who dont have as thick of skin as I do will have a better first time experience there.

The gentleman who offered me lessons was the resident gun smith and rangemaster. He said he had been competing for 40+ years, so I figure he knows what he is doing. Agreed, I thought 25/hr was an incredible bargain.

[BigJimP]

Give the club another chance - I like your approach.

Remember all this as you gain in experience - and don't let another newbie go thru the same thing - make sure someone steps up to help them out.

[zippy13]

Well said, Big Jim.

[LanceOregon]

.410 shotguns are basically worthless unless you reload, as the factory target and hunting ammo are both far more expensive than either 12 or 20 gauge shotguns. If one reloads, though, then they can be extremely economical to shoot, as the shells hold so little powder and shot.

Both the light weight and the short barrel length of your .410 are very bad factors for a serious target gun. These are factors that have nothing to do with the gun's caliber, but with how the shotgun will handle. I myself shoot a long autoloader with a 30 inch barrel for target shooting. Your swing will be so much more smooth and consistent with such a gun, compared to a light gun with short barrels.

If you decide to get into reloading and want to have an economical and very low recoil gun to have fun with, then I would say that you should keep the .410 Otherwise, if you don't reload, and want a serious target gun, then sell the .410 and get a much longer and heavier shotgun in 12 or 20 gauge.

A better gun for you and your girlfriend would be a modern gas-operated semiauto shotgun, as the shotgun's action will absorb a lot of the recoil, and make it more pleasant and easy to shoot. One in 20 gauge would be much more affordable to shoot, and combined with the gas action, would be light recoiling too.

The CZ 720 is probably the best buy on the market right now, as it is reliable, and has advanced features like a chrome action and chrome plated chamber and barrel. And you can get one from Bud's Gun Shop.com for only $410, which is quite a bargain:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/11863


Whatever shotgun you use, be sure to always wear top notch hearing protection whenever you shoot. Don't end up like me, with damaged hearing in your left ear, and a constant ringing inside your head. The damage does not always appear right after it is done, either. Damage done in your youth can later show up decades later.

I shot so many rounds of trap with absolutely no protection at all when I was a teenager. My doctor tells me that is what most likely hurt me so much. And the damage did not materialize until 30 years later.

So don't follow in my footsteps, and be sure to always wear good protection.

.

[oneounceload]

Too bad about those folks - in these days of economic slowdowns, shooting sports being maligned, the "regular" crowd growing older and dying, a club can't afford to alienate possible new members.

Someone on one of these forums had a tag line to the effect....."Be careful what you say to someone at the gun club, you might be their first impression of our sport".......how very true that is........

[zippy13]

Originally Posted by LanceOregon

.410 shotguns are basically worthless unless you reload, as the factory target and hunting ammo are both far more expensive than either 12 or 20 gauge shotguns. If one reloads, though, then they can be extremely economical to shoot, as the shells hold so little powder and shot.

I don't follow your logic: Seemingly overpriced factory ammo doesn't make the .410 basically worthless unless you reload. It just makes it expensive to shoot. IMHO, it's light weight and short barrels that can make a .410 essentially useless.

[Littlehoov]

http://www.savagearms.com/st_512.htm

Its got a 3-inch chamber.