|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
October 20, 2014, 04:42 PM | #51 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
|
Quote:
Group size makes no difference since "drop" would be figured from the center of the group, and not from individual shots In theory, a gun that shoots a 1" group at 100 is capable of a 6" group at 600, but the centers of the groups can still be at different elevations on the target, even if the edges overlapped
__________________
One shot, one kill |
|
October 20, 2014, 06:00 PM | #52 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 12, 2013
Posts: 669
|
For all rifles, projectile drop is determined by gravity. Distance = 16 x the square of the time in seconds in a vacuum, but drag in the vertical direction is almost vanishingly small compared to the drag in the direction of line of flight.
What distance a projectile has dropped at a specific range is determined by time of flight to that range. The fact that velocity is always decreasing with range complicates the calculation hideously. Velocity remaining at, and time of flight to, a given range are dependent on drag, which is dependent on air density (pressure and temperature) and ballistic coefficient, which is in turn dependent on the sectional density and the form factor (shape, basically) of the bullet. (It's also dependent upon velocity, which is why you either need a mastery of calculus or formulae which make good approximations and can make the calculus go away). All bullets will descend (in the vertical plane) at basically the same rate, because the vertical rate of descent is so slow, the "side-on shape" of the bullet makes little difference. All bullets begin an immediate descent under gravity from the line of bore from the moment they leave the muzzle, and never rise above it. They DO rise above the line of sight, by a degree determined by angle of elevation of the rifle barrel (determined in turn by the range you have sighted in for). Then of course they descend, meet line of sight once more, and begin to drop below it. The more you read, the more you delve into this, the more hideously complicated it gets. And don't get me started on wind, or on shooting at a significant up or down angle. That makes my head spin. |
October 20, 2014, 07:25 PM | #53 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 502
|
It's
Delay in flight
|
October 21, 2014, 12:06 PM | #54 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
190's from my .308's need almost 5 MOA more elevation to zero at 1000 yards at 580' elevation than at 6600' with the same load and ambient temperature fired in the same barrel. There's been people who shot their rifles at the NRA 1000-yard range near Raton, NM, at 6600' elevation then used the same ammo and zeros at Camp Perry's 1000-yard line 580' above sea level and never got on paper. Their bullets hit the dirt below the target.
In my test with a 50 grain inflated balloon and a 50 grain bullet, both at ambient temperature dropped 10 feet, the bullet fell the fastest at 4980' altitude. Last edited by Bart B.; October 24, 2014 at 11:22 AM. |
October 23, 2014, 07:49 PM | #55 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
44 amp,
you essentially said in a few detailed paragraphs what I glossed over in a single sentence. thank you.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
October 24, 2014, 07:47 AM | #56 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
In both reality and common sense theory, a 1 inch group at 100 yards will open up at least 10% for each additional 100 yards of range. It's caused by the spreads of muzzle velocity, bullet BC (small spread caused by bullet unbalance) and air movement in the trajectory. And for each 100 yard range band, the percentage increases. For example, vertical shot stringing at 100 yards with a 50 fps muzzle velocity spread from a .308 Win is about 1/10th inch. At 600 yards, it's 4 to 5 inches. At 1000 yards, it's around 20 inches.
All this without bullet drop compensation. If bullets leave the muzzle on its axis upswing such that slower ones depart at higher angles, long range groups will be smaller in MOA than mid range ones. Last edited by Bart B.; October 24, 2014 at 11:14 AM. |
October 30, 2014, 02:33 PM | #57 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
James, every bullet, every object, no matter what, will drop at the rate of 32 feet per second, per second. (G) the only altering circumstances are air resistance to friction, and that is insignificant in bullets. A bullet fired downward will have a certain velocity imparted by the rifle from the moment it leaves the barrel, and it will still gain downward velocity at the rate of G/.
A rifle fired upwards will be accelerated upwards at the velocity imparted by the rifle, and downward pull at the rate of G will be pulling it downwards from the very second it leaves the barrel. a bullet fired at an absolute level, directly perpendicular to the draw of gravity, will fall at absolutely the same rate of speed as a bullet dropped by hand. If a bullet was fired at well over a mile, at exact level, and a bullet was dropped at the very moment that the first bullet left the barrel, they would hypothetically arrive at the very same level when the bullet had traveled the full distance. This assumes absolute accuracy of the shot. A fired bullet falls at the same rate as a dropped one. Trajectory fluctuations are caused by only one thing. Changes of initial velocity, and the time it takes to reach target from the line of fire. A slow round drops more because it is accellerating downwards at G and it falls for a longer period of time than a super velocity round will. Every bullet will drop 32 feet in exactly one second in earth gravity in vacuum. So will a bowling ball, a feather, or a space station. |
October 30, 2014, 04:05 PM | #58 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
|
Nice explanation, Briandg.
Thanks. And if you could do a Youtube clip of dropping a space-station in a vacuum alongside a Hornady Amax, I would be particularly grateful!
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
|
October 30, 2014, 04:48 PM | #59 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
My info in post 54 has been discussed with many shooters. We all observe the same thing.
The denser air is, the more it slows down bullets. |
October 30, 2014, 09:09 PM | #60 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2008
Posts: 408
|
Bullets "Fly" just like an airfoil on an aircraft wing flies. The shape of the bullet determines exactly how aerodynamic the projectile is. Because there is a lack of continuous propulsion, it becomes a ballistic object subject to initial propulsive force. The shape, speed, atmospheric conditions and aerodynamic efficiency determines the rate at which the force of gravity pulls it towards the center of the earth as it decelerates.
|
October 30, 2014, 11:11 PM | #61 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
That is not correct. bullets do not skate on wall of air like an airfoil, they receive identical force from every angle of the bullet shaft. there is nothing that could cause a bullet to drift upward or downward because of friction interaction with air.
bullets drop at the prescribed rate of 32fpsXX. It's that simple. The same goes for wind drift. High velocity bullets with low drag spend less time with gravity acting on them, pulling them down, and they spend less time interacting with wind, and being pushed down, or sideways. |
October 30, 2014, 11:24 PM | #62 | |||
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,993
|
Quote:
Quote:
The statement needs to be qualified somewhat because air resistance does play a very significant role in terms of slowing down the bullet's velocity with respect to the bullet's travel along its aimed trajectory. Quote:
My best estimate is that the terminal velocity of a stabilized rifle bullet travelling downwards point first is somewhere between 500fps and 1000fps. If the muzzle velocity is greater than the terminal velocity, the bullet will slow down in spite of the downward force of gravity. It will continue to slow down until terminal velocity is reached.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|||
October 31, 2014, 05:02 PM | #63 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Posts: 641
|
Quote:
|
|
October 31, 2014, 07:49 PM | #64 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
See how your ballistics software calculates drop.
"Shoot" different caliber bullets with different weights and shapes different speeds going out level then check the drop values at 1.00 second time of flight. |
October 31, 2014, 08:36 PM | #65 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
|
Quote:
__________________
One shot, one kill |
|
October 31, 2014, 08:42 PM | #66 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
To see if they all give identical results for the same inputs.
And see if their results match what a hand-dropped bullet falls in one second's time. I'd bet they don't. |
October 31, 2014, 09:10 PM | #67 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Posts: 641
|
I don't have a ballistic program that lets me input a level barrel with no zero range.
|
November 1, 2014, 06:57 AM | #68 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
Enter sight height as zero inches, target range to 5 yards, range steps to 5 yards and max range to 1000 yards. Good enough for reasonable results.
Last edited by Bart B.; November 1, 2014 at 07:11 AM. |
November 1, 2014, 10:52 AM | #69 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Posts: 641
|
No, that is not the same thing.
|
November 1, 2014, 11:55 AM | #70 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
Here's the output from Berger's ballistic software for two bullets. Inputs are:
30 caliber 175-gr with G1 BC of .500 Zero sight height, 1 yard zero, 1 yard range step. Max range 1000 yards and 70 deg. F. Muzzle velocities 1600 and 2600 fps. Drop after TOF of about 1.00065 second average as calculated for each muzzle velocity are: 1600 fps; TOF=1.0008 sec, range=446 yards, drop = 173.14" (14.43 feet) below LOS. 2600 fps; TOF=1.0005 sec, range=671 yards, drop = 164.19" (13.68 feet) below LOS. |
November 1, 2014, 01:28 PM | #71 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
Quote:
The rough part about this is that no matter how precise the measurements are and how good the program is, air density, humidity, wind, all sorts of things can get in the way of computer projected trajectory tables and send them off a few MOA. Modern snipers absolutely blow my mind. How a man with a rifle manages to make hits on a 12" diameter target at a mile is beyond me. It's like magic. |
|
November 1, 2014, 07:20 PM | #72 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,783
|
What if anything happens if I shoot my rifle at a range here near the 45th parallel, and then take it down to Ecuador to shoot it, where gravity is not as strong. Difference in time falling, farther shooting, etc.?
__________________
Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed. |
November 1, 2014, 08:26 PM | #73 | |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,993
|
Quote:
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|
November 1, 2014, 08:57 PM | #74 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
|
Quote:
__________________
One shot, one kill |
|
November 2, 2014, 05:29 AM | #75 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
Only to those who cannot grasp its significance.
|
|
|