Fatal Shooting with Uzi

[skizzums]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...ng-instructor/

just came across this little gem, 9ys old with an UZI!! do ranges allow that? I have never read the age restrictioms, but I would assume they would have some. I don't know who would of thought that was a good idea, or even fun for a 9y/o. am I just over-protective? I have a seven year old that can shoot a semi-auto 22 with very close supervision.

of course before I jump to conclusions, this is an AP report and it might just be a hi-point carbine mistaken for a full-auto UZI. hard to tell the difference you know

[Tom Servo]

There's more on the story here. This is a tragedy for Mr. Vacca's family, as well as for the little girl, who will undoubtedly be haunted by this.

I'm not sure why he felt confident in his course of action, but I am certain this will be splashed all over the news to denigrate us.

[1stmar]

Unfortunately this has happened before. I believe it was a club in mass where a father had taken his son to a firearms demo (I believe he was 10 or 11) and he also was firing an Uzi, full auto. Shot himself and died. Horrendous accident that no one could ever recover from. If the father never fired a full auto, i can understand it, but the people running these shows... No excuse. Wasn't that long ago either, maybe 3years.

[4V50 Gary]

In both those incidents, the firearms instructors were not properly trained as smg instructors (if they were trained at all).

First step is to familiarize the shooter with the firearm. Muzzle control and finger off the trigger, insert empty magazine. Remove the same. Load magazine with one round. Cock. Fire. Remove the magazine.

Load the magazine with two rounds. Cock. Fire one shot. Fire one shot.
Load the magazine with two rounds. Set on full. Cock. Fire a two shot burst.
Load the magazine with three rounds. Set on full. Cock. Fire one shot. Fire a two shot burst.
Repeat but with more bullets in magazine. Object is to get the user familiar with the recoil of the uzi.

Never ever give a full magazine to a novice and tell them go set on full auto and spray.

[KyJim]

A real tragedy. Let's hope this is the last one of this type. I'm sorry, nine years old is just too young to fire a full auto weapon.

[AK103K]

In both those incidents, the firearms instructors were not properly trained as smg instructors (if they were trained at all).

First step is to familiarize the shooter with the firearm. Muzzle control and finger off the trigger, insert empty magazine. Remove the same. Load magazine with one round. Cock. Fire. Remove the magazine.

Load the magazine with two rounds. Cock. Fire one shot. Fire one shot.
Load the magazine with two rounds. Set on full. Cock. Fire a two shot burst.
Load the magazine with three rounds. Set on full. Cock. Fire one shot. Fire a two shot burst.
Repeat but with more bullets in magazine. Object is to get the user familiar with the recoil of the uzi.

Never ever give a full magazine to a novice and tell them go set on full auto and spray.
__

Exactly.

I'm sorry, nine years old is just too young to fire a full auto weapon.

Not at all. By 9, both my kids had fired more rounds in full auto, than most adults.

Full auto is nothing magical, nor is it any more or less dangerous than anything else, unless of course, you havent been properly taught to use it. Just like anything else.

[Mosin-Marauder]

Who gives a Nine Year Old an automatic weapon?

I imagine it could be okay with some people's kids if the parents knew what they were doing. But with a full magazine on full auto. Sheesh.

[Tom Servo]

Who gives a Nine Year Old an automatic weapon?

Expect that question to be asked all over the media.

Expect that video to be widely circulated the next time there's a push for a ban on "assault weapons."

[FrankenMauser]

Who gives a Nine Year Old an automatic weapon?

I imagine it could be okay with some people's kids if the parents knew what they were doing. But with a full magazine on full auto. Sheesh.

FA firearms are not the instant world destroyers that the majority of people believe them to be.

Some are very tame. Others are easily controlled by anyone proficient with firearms in general. And, some are quickly controlled with minimal training.
Some are well within the skill level of a 9 year old with some experience.

The instructor seems to have made a big mistake in this case (body position, in particular seems to have been a fatal error), but that doesn't mean that no nine year-old is capable of full-auto fire. ...let alone with any FA weapon.

Like AK103K, I fired more rounds in full-auto or 3-round burst, by my 8th birthday (starting when I was 5), than many firearm owners/enthusiasts ever will over the course of their entire lives. No one died, and the world didn't come to an end.


Come to think of it....
My 11 year old niece has almost zero experience with firearms, but had her father's 10/22 go full-auto on her, about a year and a half ago. She reacted better than 95% of experienced adults that I've shot with, controlling the rifle so that the bullet impacts were in the berm behind her target, and continued to keep the rifle shouldered and pointed at the target as her father and I responded to the unexpected malfunction. (The malfunction was due to well-worn parts and fatigued springs.)
It may have only been a .22, but she still had the presence of mind to keep calm and let the malfunction run its course - rather than panicking and posing a major safety hazard.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Terrible. Yeah, seems a little much to expect a kid to control a short/light full-auto weapon, but the judgment call was made - she probably seemed mature and took instruction well, so he made that judgment - easy to 2nd guess now, but.... I guess the lesson is, always err on the cautious side.

I've read that a fair number of people have met their demise at gun ranges with slam-firing SKSs (stuck firing pins) that recoil upward and put one through the bottom of the chin up into the head. Got to hang on tight to ALL guns. Very sad.

[Evan Thomas]

Unfortunately this has happened before. I believe it was a club in mass where a father had taken his son to a firearms demo (I believe he was 10 or 11) and he also was firing an Uzi, full auto. Shot himself and died.

The boy was eight years old, and his father insisted that he should shoot the Uzi in spite of being advised against it...

People don't learn.

[Mosin-Marauder]

Not once did I say it was a bad thing to introduce youngsters to FA. I just think that giving a new kid a full magazine and putting it in full auto is a mistake waiting to happen. With experience it could be done.

[mehavey]

Well, I do believe it's ill-advised to the point of terminal lunacy
to hand a 8-9 year old a fully-automatic weapon. For reasons
too numerous to count. Put me in the negative camp.

[1stmar]

I don't know what the right age is to handle fa. Maybe age by itself is not the issue, maybe it's experience and expectation. Personally I wouldn't let my 15 year old shoot it till he saw someone else shoot full auto, knew what to expect and worked his way up to it. 1 round, then 2, 3, 5 etc. even then, not sure I could take the risk For what? I could never live w myself and you could not stop it in time. You don't get second chances or do overs.

[Colt46]

Negligence. Pure and simple.

[Frank Ettin]

I have some experience helping train kids when I was a coach for our club's youth trapshooting team. Instructors do need to recognize, accept and insist that some things are beyond the physical capabilities of some children to manage.

It can be a matter of stature, hand strength, upper body strength or some combination. But a concern for both safety and making it a positive experience for the child require that the instructor exercise both good judgment and insist that his judgment be honored.

I'm sorry for the instructor and the child here, but the instructor did make a serious mistake. Unfortunately he paid for that mistake with his life.

[Barnacle Brad]

Tragic for sure and a hard way to learn a lesson. I am in the camp of teach em young and teach em well, but my kids, and grandchildren never handled a firearm I didn't know forwards and backwards and within their capabilities. I will add this: just because you can train a kid to shoot full auto, doesn't mean you should. My opinion only and by no means criticize those feeling differently.

[Machineguntony]

Very sad event that resulted from serious negligence on the instructors part.

[skizzums]

We must be talking about different stories, mine the shooter shot the instructor, not themslves in the head. I haven't watched any video though. I don't know when the appropriate age is for a full auto pistol or do I think full auto is inherently dangerous, but I have to believe this wouldnt have happened with one trigger=one shot. I know ALL guns can be dangeeous w/o proper training, but I do think full auto is more dangerous.

[AK103K]

We must be talking about different stories, mine the shooter shot the instructor, not themslves in the head.

I think what Tony is referring to, is it was the fault of the instructor, not the kids.

Now that NFA machine guns are becoming more popular, I hope tragedies like this do not become more common.

The way things have gone since Reagan signed the '86 ban, and ammo has been in the past decade or so, they arent near as popular as the once were. Long gone are $200 guns and $100, 2000 round cases of ammo. These days, you need to be fairly well off to get into the machine gun world.

Tragic for sure and a hard way to learn a lesson. I am in the camp of teach em young and teach em well, but my kids, and grandchildren never handled a firearm I didn't know forwards and backwards and within their capabilities.

As it should be.

Instructors do need to recognize, accept and insist that some things are beyond the physical capabilities of some children to manage.

I agree, and that goes for anything firearms related.

FA firearms are not the instant world destroyers that the majority of people believe them to be.

Some are very tame. Others are easily controlled by anyone proficient with firearms in general. And, some are quickly controlled with minimal training.
Some are well within the skill level of a 9 year old with some experience.

I think a lot of the problem is lack of experience with them by the majority of shooters, to understand them.

Some really are very tame and a very easy to shoot well with, and with little training, things like the smaller, faster guns, like the MAC's, need some understanding and time shoting them.

The problem with the MAC's, UZI's, and similar, that have the mag located in the grip, and the grip located amidships, is that the gun wants to rotate around that grip when fired, especially if you try and shoot it without the stock deployed. Even with the stock deployed, if you dont mount it properly, and/or it should slip out of your shoulder, it will want to try and rock back towards you.

TV/movies have taught generations the wrong way to handle FA firearms. People see too many wrong things on TV and think its real life. Something I will say is a selling point for teaching your kids to know the difference. My kids used to always call BS when they saw anything firearms related on TV or the movies, but even more so with anything FA. They knew some guy with a MAC in each hand, shooting away in a movie, was BS, but that was only because they knew what was real, and what wasnt. So teaching kids young (and even adults), is important.

[Bennyfatsack]

I had a rifle in my hands from as early as I can remember, a simple air rifle then .22 by age of 10, had it drummed into me which was the dangerous end and where to point it, a rifle heavy, cumbersome, bolt action thought has to be given to shot placement.An Uzi ?? Wow in the hands of a kid, training, trained or not, full auto, light, the dangerous end! where it ends up when things go even slightly wrong, have they developed enough respect for what there holding, have they grasped the concept of consequence of what can happen.... This problem lies in the puffed chests and egos of the people putting a dangerous weapon in the hands of someone/anyone, be they 9 yrs old or 90yrs old, respect, understanding, consequence are core principles behind what can be a brilliant enjoyable sport, without it people die, literally it's all fun and games to a child I believe they need to be mature enough to have the respect and understanding let alone the physical attributes to control such a weapon, KIDS CAN HAVE PLENTY OF FUN SAFELY WITHOUT FULL AUTO, full auto in a child's hands I believe is more for the adults entertainment, ego and brag rights. Creating a dangerous situation for the wrong reasons.

[Tamara]

The number of people opining on this topic who have never fired a machine pistol, let alone instructed someone else in how to do so, is amazing.

It's like listening to the anti-gun crowd talking about shoulder things that go up.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary

First step is to familiarize the shooter with the firearm. Muzzle control and finger off the trigger, insert empty magazine. Remove the same. Load magazine with one round. Cock. Fire. Remove the magazine.

Load the magazine with two rounds. Cock. Fire one shot. Fire one shot.
Load the magazine with two rounds. Set on full. Cock. Fire a two shot burst.
Load the magazine with three rounds. Set on full. Cock. Fire one shot. Fire a two shot burst.
Repeat but with more bullets in magazine. Object is to get the user familiar with the recoil of the uzi.

Never ever give a full magazine to a novice and tell them go set on full auto and spray.

In my opinion, the bolded parts also apply to introducing a new shooter to pistols.

You don't know how someone unfamiliar with shooting will respond to the noise and recoil or where the muzzle will be after the first shot, and they don't either.

If I am introducing someone to the activity, I owe them the benefit of my foresight and caution they can't possess. One also has to understand that someone new to an experience can only absorb so much information at one time, and one shouldn't expect much of it to sink in the first time out.

That's a sad video.

[Tamara]

Originally Posted by zukiphile

If I am introducing someone to the activity, I owe them the benefit of my foresight and caution they can't possess.

That is very well-phrased and bears repeating.

With regard to shooting machine-pistols, there are things that people do on the range all the time (such as that upright-to-leaned-back beginner's stance) that, while they cause no harm to anything but your group size in semi-auto, could have serious consequences with a buzzgun.

[kraigwy]

The number of people opining on this topic who have never fired a machine pistol, let alone instructed someone else in how to do so, is amazing.

It's like listening to the anti-gun crowd talking about shoulder things that go up.

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