Tell me about Lugers

[RX-79G]

Just for clarity, the Stoeger Stainless Luger IS an Aimco/Mitchell Luger that Stoeger bought and distributed:

[Jim Watson]

I thought it interesting that the P08 looking "stock lug" on those is not finish machined, because it is not a C&R and you can't put a stock on it without getting into NFA stuff.

[RX-79G]

Which ones are you talking about, Jim?

[Jim Watson]

The stainless guns sold by Mitchell and Stoeger.

[RX-79G]

They aren't grooved. Just for the look, I guess.

http://www.lugerforum.com/lugerinox.html

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

...it is not a C&R and you can't put a stock on it without getting into NFA stuff.

Mandatory warning for the uninitiated: Only certain specific Luger pistol and shoulder stock combinations are exempt from the NFA. These are listed in detail on Pages 35 & 36 in Section III of the ATF C&R book:

http://www.atf.gov/files/publication...elics-list.pdf

All other Luger pistol/stock combinations ARE subject to the NFA.

[gc70]

For a shooter, the Mausers imported by Interarms in the '70s are a good way to go. It is not very difficult to find a NIB example and prices are surprisingly reasonable.

[Jim Watson]

I looked at one of those recently, a sleek 6 inch with German frontstrap.
But the grips are squared off uncomfortably and it takes a gorilla grip to depress the grip safety.
Back to the 1911 for me.

[gc70]

The German frontstrap on some of the late production guns was visually appealing, but seemed to me like Mauser didn't quite get the dimensions right.

I scared the bejabbers out of myself during the first range trip with my 29/70. I was shooting with a thumbs forward hold and succeeded in thumbing down the locking bolt under recoil; the trigger plate fell off and the cannon would have gone downrange if the round being loaded had not jammed.

[jaughtman]

Due to some late night surfing, I learned more about Lugers in this thread than I have in years of looking at gun postings.....I see ones under $900 from time to time here in Bama and have thought about buying one. Now I know which ones to eliminate......

J

[ttarp]

How about the accuracy? Growing up I was under the impression that Lugers were just about the most accurate design made. (I couldn't tell you how I formed this impression, maybe tv I dunno) But thats well before I started haunting gun forums and really learning anything about firearms, is this just a myth I formed, or an exaggeration of its qualities?

[RX-79G]

It is true. The P210 is as accurate as it is because the Swiss couldn't stand the thought of downgrading. The barrel system of the Luger is incredibly consistent and has the sights in more direct contact with the barrel. Very similar to a fixed barrel gun.

[44 AMP]

I would consider the Luger a fixed barrel gun, compared to the Browning tilt barrel. The whole upper (canon?) of the Luger moves back and forth, but the barrel itself never moves in its receiver.

Lugers can be very accurate, but are not easy to shoot accurately (in general) because the usual sights and trigger pull are not the best possible.

Still, they are fun, iconic, and while long eclipsed as a first line duty weapon, one is not unarmed with a Luger.



1936 and a "shooter"...

[kcub]

I toyed with getting one of the stainless American ones but IIRC, they didn't run well. They are nice looking.

I almost bought one new back in the day but my gunshop buddy said they didn't work.

My first pistol was a Stoeger Luger .22. It jammed a fair bit but the teenager I was loved it. I replaced it a few years ago and it runs well with anything other than Remington ammo.

I'd love to have an artillery 10" bbl Luger but they go for more money than I care to spend on that particular gun.



I wouldn't pass on a shooter for 1K though. All I have ever seen that were affordable that weren't beaters were .30s, no thanks.

[skoro]

My grandfather took this 1915 DWM from a captured German officer by the name of Kruger in WW1. His name is still legible on the holster. I've fired it a few times and it runs flawlessly. Took it apart to see if the numbers all match - they do. It was a chore to reassemble.

This was passed from my GF to my father, to me and will go to my son.

[JeffK]

How about the accuracy? Growing up I was under the impression that Lugers were just about the most accurate design made. (I couldn't tell you how I formed this impression, maybe tv I dunno) But thats well before I started haunting gun forums and really learning anything about firearms, is this just a myth I formed, or an exaggeration of its qualities?

I don't know about the most accurate, but in my limited experience shooting my old Mauser it's noticeably but not dramatically more accurate than my P226 that I've been shooting for 15+ years, which in turn is comparable in accuracy to other 9 mm, .40 and .45 semi-autos I've fired enough to get reasonably good with (Glocks, H&K, other Sigs, I forget). This I'm judging by silver dollar sort of scatter at 10 yards with slow careful aiming, I did not make careful measurements but my eyeball meter says the Luger was consistently doing better. If I put the guns on a rest, maybe the difference would have been more obvious. However the sights are a little odd, and if I had to aim quickly especially in low lighting the practical accuracy might be worse instead of better. In any case they are fun.

[gc70]

A good indicator of Luger accuracy comes from the Swiss specifications for the pistol that replaced the Luger in Swiss military use. The P49 (P210 in commercial form) had to be as accurate as the prior Lugers. The acceptance requirement (proven by a test target) was a group in 5 centimeters (just under 2 inches) at 50 meters (nearly 55 yards).

Bear in mind that Luger sights are a v-shaped rear notch and an inverted-v front sight - not what would be considered good sights today.

[Big Shrek]

I spent a bit of time researching these...variants.

Bottom line, it was a marketing ploy by a guy who had too many on hand,
at the time, sales of those with the Bakelite grips were slow, so he stuck a good name on 'em...
but they're just typical Lugers of that time period (41/42) with Bakelite grips and a specifically marked mag...
both of which were done due to wartime shortages of regular resources...
so technically, since less were made, there is a captcha there...
but most Luger purists turn funny colors when someone asks/talks about Black Widow Lugers...
it is not a German designation, but an American one...done in the 60's...
and they consider them less than desireable...mostly shooters.

Bad part is, there are so many fakes out there it isn't funny, and lots of "conversions".
I'd suggest lugerforum.com for tons of info before buying any Luger...lots to learn there

[RickB]

A good indicator of Luger accuracy comes from the Swiss specifications for the pistol that replaced the Luger in Swiss military use. The P49 (P210 in commercial form) had to be as accurate as the prior Lugers. The acceptance requirement (proven by a test target) was a group in 5 centimeters (just under 2 inches) at 50 meters (nearly 55 yards).

Bear in mind that Luger sights are a v-shaped rear notch and an inverted-v front sight - not what would be considered good sights today.

Modern pistol sights, in general, aren't very good, either. Just as the best-selling car is not the best car, the most common sighting system: Front sight as wide or wider than the rear notch, all often cluttered with dots or squares, is not a great set-up. Luger sights are quaint, but if you have time, you can use the small sights to good effect in the "aim small, miss small" tradition. As the distance increases, I find the Luger sights get better, as their small size is proportional to the small apparent size of the target.
Lugers generally have long, creepy triggers, but they can be fixed. I had a trigger job done as part of a restoration/rebuild, and it makes a big difference.
John Martz passed away not too long ago, John Lawson is well into his 80s, and I don't know if there are many Luger specialists left?

[James K]

Big Shrek is correct that the origin of the term "Black Widow" is American, but the grips are genuine. They were used on both new production at Mauser and as replacement grips. They were never, in spite of hype, limited to use by the SS, the Gestapo, Nazi party leaders, or any other specific group or organization; they were just grips.

Jim

[Pilot]

My BYF 41 (Mauser) P-08 came to me in the early 90's from Russia or the Ukraine as stated by someone previously. It has black bakelite grips, but retains all the Nazi markings, and it IS a great shooter. It has never failed me in over 20 years of ownership, and it handles hollow points, my flat nose reloads, and any anything else over the years. I tend to just shoot my light to mid range target loads in it now whether it be leads, FMJ or flat points. It digests them all, and is very accurate.

If that pistol could talk.......

[Big Shrek]

Pilot, does it have an X mark on it somewhere??

Kinda like this, but could be anywhere on it...
interesting fun to note the different locations they put 'em...