30-06 180 grain reloading

redblooded · October 17, 2002, 11:23 AM

I've started hand loading for my 30-06. I use my 30-06 soley for Elk in Montana. I went to the range last knight and shot my reloads and some factory amunition. My factor loads are federal core lok 180 grain. My hand loads are Nosler 180 grain partition. when I shot the factory amo is one inch high at 100 yrds, my hand loads are dead on at 100 yards. Can any one tell me what the difference is? Are my hand loads shooting flatter or do they peter out faster. The powder is IMR 4831 at 57.6 grains velocity is 2800.
Thanks

DAVID NANCARROW · October 17, 2002, 11:53 AM

If you don't have access to a chronograph, it's harder to guess at, but IF your handloads are at the same velocity as your factory loads, the corelocts seem have a better ballistic coefficient. In other words, they are more streamlined aerodynamically

Chuck Dye · October 17, 2002, 12:43 PM

A couple of difficulties with your question. I have not found a Federal core loc bullet in my ammo library or at the Federal web site (Core-Lokt is a Remington trademark) so I can't even guess at the ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity of the factory load you use. My (admittedly old) Loadbooks USA compilation of .30-06 handloads has Nosler Bullets' page giving IMR4831 and 180gr bullets a MAX load of 57.0gr for a 106% load density (compressed charge) and a M.V. of 2760fps. IMR's data show a 59gr max of 59.0gr and 2694fps. Speer's page has a max of 59.0gr IMR4831 for 2684fps. Sierra tops at 57.6gr IMR4831 and 2800fps. Hornady tops at 59.2gr IMR4831 and 2800fps. Throw in all the variables of case volume, primer performance, powder lot -to-lot variation, chamber dimensions, bore dimensions, etc. and only a chronograph will tell you (within the precision of the chrony and all that effects that) what your muzzle velocity really is. Another major variable your thread opener does not answer is which 180gr Nosler Partition-the Protected point, B.C.=0.361, or the Spitzer, B.C.=0.474.

Once you have the ballistic coefficient of the bullets involved, go to

http://www.norma.cc/htm_files/javapagee.htm and

http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jbm/.../traj/traj.html

and fiddle around. The define your own option on the Norma site will allow you to vary M.V. and trajectory very easily to get an idea of the numbers behind what you are seeing.

All of that, though, is mind play. The best answer to your qustion is a thorough testing program on the range, hence my signature line.

Buy a shoulder pad if you haven't already and have fun!

redblooded · October 17, 2002, 01:29 PM

The factory amo is Remington. I'm new to the handloading scene so if you see information that doesnt make sence thats why. But thanks for all the input. So it appears I havent read the manual right and need to drop to 57 grains.

Chuck Dye · October 17, 2002, 03:16 PM

DO NOT TRUST ME!

Do not trust load data from sources other than the component manufacturers and established labs. Don't even trust the industry's published loads fully-get the most recent publications you can (I quoted from a book copyrighted 1997 which quotes industry sources without dating the sources), read all the cautions, learn the signs of excess pressure, and work up from the recommended starting loads. Learn the risks of underloading. Search this and other sites for kabooms, nearly all resulted from loading errors and the postmortems and photography are sobering. Take notes, keep records, label stuff thoroughly. Never load from memory: read the manuals or your notes each time you set up. Organize, organize, organize!

:rant off:

If you are not seeing signs of pressure, I doubt you need to reduce your load, but as I said, you should consult the most recent publications you can.

My ammo library shows two 180gr Core-Lokt loads: a round nose B.C.=0.248, and a pointed B.C.=0.383.

When I set the pointed Core-Lokt point of impact 1 inch high at 100yds and figure a sight height of 1.5 inches (typical scope) my ballistics program calculates a sight adjustment of approx. 4.8 minutes of angle (MOA). If I then zero the Partition at 100yds, I must slow the muzzle velocity to 2275fps to get a 4.8 MOA sight adjustment. Assuming the two points of impact you cite are for the same sight adjustment, there are a a couple of possibilities.

The low predicted velocity may be due to my error. My load data is known to be old and may differ from the realities of current lots, formulations, etc. My understanding and operation of the ballistics program may be faulty (sigh!) Or both.

The low prediction does not take into account that the published velocities are taken from custom test barrels and production barrels rarely equal or exceed test velocities. Also your barrel may be shorter than the 24 inchers cited in my ammo library. As your muzzle velocity with the factory load is almost certainly lower than the advertised 2700fps, the predicted velocity of your handload should be higher than the 2275 I came up with.

All this hand waving, smoke, and mirrors is good fun and academically interesting, but not worth a single well planned testing session on the range.

Have fun!

Marshall · October 19, 2002, 02:07 PM

Hi, I thought I might throw in an observation. It is important to know, understand and follow the wise council I have seen written to you on this thread. Having said that, here is something you might find interesting. My new Sako stainless 3006 shoots 150gr Nosler Balistic Tips and Partitions, 150gr Sierra Gamekings, 165gr Rem CL's and Federal 180gr High Enery Nosler Partitions into a 6" circle at 225 yards using the same point of aim. All are handloads except the Federal High Energy 180grs.
I offer no explanation and I didn't handload for that purpose. It just worked out that way. None of my loads exceed any listed loads, nor do they show any pressure signs. Fun, huh!

Marshall

green 788 · October 20, 2002, 12:12 PM

First things first. You can verify this with a Sierra tech at 800-223-8799...

The B.C. isn't going to come into play at 100 yards, unless you're talking about an extremely gross disparity, which won't be the case here.

According to the Speer manual (a reliable predictor of actual velocity from published data) your load from a 22" barrel would be going about 2600, not 2800 fps. Speer's max load with the IMR 4831 is shown to be 59 grains, for a velocity of 2684 fps from their 22" test barrel.

Nosler's velocity numbers come from 24" custom barrels, and are vitually worthless for all practical applications.

Most folks have much better performance from IMR 4350 in the 30-06. 56 grains of IMR 4350 with the 180 grain bullet is a time tested, hard hitting, accurate recipe. That'll get you about 2600 to 2650 fps.

If you want more velocity, load 57.5 grains of H4350 behind the 180's, but do test for pressure signs at 56, 56.5, and 57 grains before going there. That load should get you above 2700 fps in your rifle.

Best of luck, and hey--if your IMR 4831 load is shooting well, why not just stay with it? The extra inch in difference at 100 yards you're seeing could easily be a factor of barrel harmonic whip instead of having anything to do with velocity. Check the rounds at 300 yards if you can, and see if there is a difference there...

Dan Newberry
green 788

Dan Newberry
green 788

JackM · October 20, 2002, 08:23 PM

FWIW, my .30-06 consistantly puts 165 gr. Partitions 1 1/2" to the right of any other 165 gr. bullet. It's likely that the difference in construction is affecting barrel whip.

Bye
Jack

pilon · October 21, 2002, 08:36 AM

AN EXACT ANSWER:
If you are seing diferent point of inpact for two diferent bullets - this is normal - damn you can not expect that two diferent bullets can have same balistics.

You can have the samew bullet weight , the same speed (can ttell without a crono) the same BC but still a digferrent POI.

IT is not a BC thing - its the bullet shape it self - the shape og bullet bottem, shank, ogive ..................

YOu can get also left or right shift of POI not only vertically.

SO USE THE KNOBS (U know on the scope)

redblooded · October 21, 2002, 02:32 PM

Thanks to everyone for all the input. I droped to 57 grains and finally got it dialed in. My last three shots at 100 yard can be covered with a quarter. Good enough to bag a bull, now I just have to find one.

Ackley Improved User · February 3, 2005, 08:32 PM

There is no need to quess anymore. Get a chronograph and use the Neco internal ballistics program. It's great for learning about the "SCIENCE" of reloading. I recommend you get the NECO Quickload ballistic program and play with it - it is very accurate in my experience (see related thread). You'll soon learn the "inside and outside" of ballistics and reloading. It's worth the ~$140.

For the '06 the best powders (I've found) are Reloader 19 or 22 for 165 grain bullets and Reloader 25 for the 180 grain bullets. You'll get maximum accuracy and velocity. The program predicted it, and my chronograph confirmed it.

Robert M Boren Sr · February 3, 2005, 10:52 PM

redblooded, where are you at in montana? Maybe we can catch up with each other, I have a chrony and ballistic printer and we can see really where your stuff is.

October 17, 2002, 11:23 AM	#1
redblooded Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Montana Posts: 3	30-06 180 grain reloading I've started hand loading for my 30-06. I use my 30-06 soley for Elk in Montana. I went to the range last knight and shot my reloads and some factory amunition. My factor loads are federal core lok 180 grain. My hand loads are Nosler 180 grain partition. when I shot the factory amo is one inch high at 100 yrds, my hand loads are dead on at 100 yards. Can any one tell me what the difference is? Are my hand loads shooting flatter or do they peter out faster. The powder is IMR 4831 at 57.6 grains velocity is 2800. Thanks

October 17, 2002, 12:43 PM	#3
Chuck Dye Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2002 Location: Oregon-The wet side. Posts: 949	A couple of difficulties with your question. I have not found a Federal core loc bullet in my ammo library or at the Federal web site (Core-Lokt is a Remington trademark) so I can't even guess at the ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity of the factory load you use. My (admittedly old) Loadbooks USA compilation of .30-06 handloads has Nosler Bullets' page giving IMR4831 and 180gr bullets a MAX load of 57.0gr for a 106% load density (compressed charge) and a M.V. of 2760fps. IMR's data show a 59gr max of 59.0gr and 2694fps. Speer's page has a max of 59.0gr IMR4831 for 2684fps. Sierra tops at 57.6gr IMR4831 and 2800fps. Hornady tops at 59.2gr IMR4831 and 2800fps. Throw in all the variables of case volume, primer performance, powder lot -to-lot variation, chamber dimensions, bore dimensions, etc. and only a chronograph will tell you (within the precision of the chrony and all that effects that) what your muzzle velocity really is. Another major variable your thread opener does not answer is which 180gr Nosler Partition-the Protected point, B.C.=0.361, or the Spitzer, B.C.=0.474. Once you have the ballistic coefficient of the bullets involved, go to http://www.norma.cc/htm_files/javapagee.htm and http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jbm/.../traj/traj.html and fiddle around. The define your own option on the Norma site will allow you to vary M.V. and trajectory very easily to get an idea of the numbers behind what you are seeing. All of that, though, is mind play. The best answer to your qustion is a thorough testing program on the range, hence my signature line. Buy a shoulder pad if you haven't already and have fun! __________________ Gee, I'd love to see your data!

October 17, 2002, 03:16 PM	#5
Chuck Dye Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2002 Location: Oregon-The wet side. Posts: 949	Weasle words or sage safety advice follows... DO NOT TRUST ME! Do not trust load data from sources other than the component manufacturers and established labs. Don't even trust the industry's published loads fully-get the most recent publications you can (I quoted from a book copyrighted 1997 which quotes industry sources without dating the sources), read all the cautions, learn the signs of excess pressure, and work up from the recommended starting loads. Learn the risks of underloading. Search this and other sites for kabooms, nearly all resulted from loading errors and the postmortems and photography are sobering. Take notes, keep records, label stuff thoroughly. Never load from memory: read the manuals or your notes each time you set up. Organize, organize, organize! :rant off: If you are not seeing signs of pressure, I doubt you need to reduce your load, but as I said, you should consult the most recent publications you can. My ammo library shows two 180gr Core-Lokt loads: a round nose B.C.=0.248, and a pointed B.C.=0.383. When I set the pointed Core-Lokt point of impact 1 inch high at 100yds and figure a sight height of 1.5 inches (typical scope) my ballistics program calculates a sight adjustment of approx. 4.8 minutes of angle (MOA). If I then zero the Partition at 100yds, I must slow the muzzle velocity to 2275fps to get a 4.8 MOA sight adjustment. Assuming the two points of impact you cite are for the same sight adjustment, there are a a couple of possibilities. The low predicted velocity may be due to my error. My load data is known to be old and may differ from the realities of current lots, formulations, etc. My understanding and operation of the ballistics program may be faulty (sigh!) Or both. The low prediction does not take into account that the published velocities are taken from custom test barrels and production barrels rarely equal or exceed test velocities. Also your barrel may be shorter than the 24 inchers cited in my ammo library. As your muzzle velocity with the factory load is almost certainly lower than the advertised 2700fps, the predicted velocity of your handload should be higher than the 2275 I came up with. All this hand waving, smoke, and mirrors is good fun and academically interesting, but not worth a single well planned testing session on the range. Have fun! __________________ Gee, I'd love to see your data!

October 19, 2002, 02:07 PM	#6
Marshall Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2001 Location: I live in a small bush community in southeast Alaska called Gustavus Posts: 103	Hi, I thought I might throw in an observation. It is important to know, understand and follow the wise council I have seen written to you on this thread. Having said that, here is something you might find interesting. My new Sako stainless 3006 shoots 150gr Nosler Balistic Tips and Partitions, 150gr Sierra Gamekings, 165gr Rem CL's and Federal 180gr High Enery Nosler Partitions into a 6" circle at 225 yards using the same point of aim. All are handloads except the Federal High Energy 180grs. I offer no explanation and I didn't handload for that purpose. It just worked out that way. None of my loads exceed any listed loads, nor do they show any pressure signs. Fun, huh! Marshall __________________ marshall

October 20, 2002, 12:12 PM	#7
green 788 Member Join Date: August 26, 2002 Location: Wytheville, VA Posts: 18	Your load is going about 2600 fps... First things first. You can verify this with a Sierra tech at 800-223-8799... The B.C. isn't going to come into play at 100 yards, unless you're talking about an extremely gross disparity, which won't be the case here. According to the Speer manual (a reliable predictor of actual velocity from published data) your load from a 22" barrel would be going about 2600, not 2800 fps. Speer's max load with the IMR 4831 is shown to be 59 grains, for a velocity of 2684 fps from their 22" test barrel. Nosler's velocity numbers come from 24" custom barrels, and are vitually worthless for all practical applications. Most folks have much better performance from IMR 4350 in the 30-06. 56 grains of IMR 4350 with the 180 grain bullet is a time tested, hard hitting, accurate recipe. That'll get you about 2600 to 2650 fps. If you want more velocity, load 57.5 grains of H4350 behind the 180's, but do test for pressure signs at 56, 56.5, and 57 grains before going there. That load should get you above 2700 fps in your rifle. Best of luck, and hey--if your IMR 4831 load is shooting well, why not just stay with it? The extra inch in difference at 100 yards you're seeing could easily be a factor of barrel harmonic whip instead of having anything to do with velocity. Check the rounds at 300 yards if you can, and see if there is a difference there... Dan Newberry green 788 Dan Newberry green 788

October 17, 2002, 11:53 AM	#2
DAVID NANCARROW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,761	If you don't have access to a chronograph, it's harder to guess at, but IF your handloads are at the same velocity as your factory loads, the corelocts seem have a better ballistic coefficient. In other words, they are more streamlined aerodynamically

October 17, 2002, 01:29 PM	#4
redblooded Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Montana Posts: 3	The factory amo is Remington. I'm new to the handloading scene so if you see information that doesnt make sence thats why. But thanks for all the input. So it appears I havent read the manual right and need to drop to 57 grains.

October 20, 2002, 08:23 PM	#8
JackM Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2001 Location: Sask. Posts: 108	FWIW, my .30-06 consistantly puts 165 gr. Partitions 1 1/2" to the right of any other 165 gr. bullet. It's likely that the difference in construction is affecting barrel whip. Bye Jack

October 21, 2002, 08:36 AM	#9
pilon Member Join Date: June 4, 2001 Posts: 35	AN EXACT ANSWER: If you are seing diferent point of inpact for two diferent bullets - this is normal - damn you can not expect that two diferent bullets can have same balistics. You can have the samew bullet weight , the same speed (can ttell without a crono) the same BC but still a digferrent POI. IT is not a BC thing - its the bullet shape it self - the shape og bullet bottem, shank, ogive .................. YOu can get also left or right shift of POI not only vertically. SO USE THE KNOBS (U know on the scope)

October 21, 2002, 02:32 PM	#10
redblooded Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Montana Posts: 3	Thanks to everyone for all the input. I droped to 57 grains and finally got it dialed in. My last three shots at 100 yard can be covered with a quarter. Good enough to bag a bull, now I just have to find one.

February 3, 2005, 08:32 PM	#11
Ackley Improved User Member Join Date: January 31, 2005 Posts: 56	I've posted this in some other threads, and it applies here. There is no need to quess anymore. Get a chronograph and use the Neco internal ballistics program. It's great for learning about the "SCIENCE" of reloading. I recommend you get the NECO Quickload ballistic program and play with it - it is very accurate in my experience (see related thread). You'll soon learn the "inside and outside" of ballistics and reloading. It's worth the ~$140. For the '06 the best powders (I've found) are Reloader 19 or 22 for 165 grain bullets and Reloader 25 for the 180 grain bullets. You'll get maximum accuracy and velocity. The program predicted it, and my chronograph confirmed it.

February 3, 2005, 10:52 PM	#12
Robert M Boren Sr Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Location: NW Montana Posts: 269	redblooded, where are you at in montana? Maybe we can catch up with each other, I have a chrony and ballistic printer and we can see really where your stuff is.