Handgun Pressure signs . What am I looking for ?

[Metal god]

I've loaded up some handgun rounds ( 9mm & 45acp ) for the first time . I've been busy with work so have not shot them yet . I was looking at some of my brass that has been prepped and I noticed a few things .

A lot of the cases both 9mm and 45 have extractor marks on the heads from the first/last time they were fired . So now that will mean nothing because I won't know if they are from me or were already there .

What all am I looking for here ? I've loaded many rifle rounds but my most common pressure sign with those has been sticky bolts . I'm not going to get a lot of those with these semi autos hand guns .

Also do you all have a type of firearm you suggest using for the test .? I have multiple guns in the same caliber . I figured I'd use the most reliable ones . That way if there is a problem I know its the load and not the firearm .

I'm not there yet but if I find a load that works well in 9mm X can I go ahead and shoot the same load in 9mm Y . I know rifle loads if your near max you should drop the charge and work back up if using a new/different rifle . I only ask because I found it odd that different head stamp brass is not an issue when loading for hand guns but is when loading rifle cartridges . I was wondering how many other things are different or less of an issue with hand gun loads as compared to rifle loads ?

[chris in va]

Let's see the recipe(s) you are using.

[SHR970]

With the 45 when you see flattening of the primers you are already waaaaaaaayyyyy too high in the pressure. It operates at less than 2/3 the pressure of the 9mm. With the 9mm, flattening of the primers means you are a bit high, even with the soft cupped Federal 100 primer.

When the 45 is ejecting the brass a fair bit further than usual, you have your clue that you are already into the too hot territory.

The problem with trying to read the tea leaves of pressure signs in the low to lower pressure rounds is that the "usual signs" do not manifest until you are way over; as in past proof load territory. A chronograph can give you an indication that you are pushing it but you have to understand that the velocity is only one part of the read.

I only ask because I found it odd that different head stamp brass is not an issue when loading for hand guns but is when loading rifle cartridges .

In the 9mm head stamp matters; especially if you are working near the top. Certain head stamps can be mixed and will behave similarly, others not so much. Especially watch out for off label foreign brass.

[LE-28]

I'll tell you what I watch for. If I shoot any of my semi-autos and they start torqueing in my hand to the point that they are turning the gun and my hand in up to a 45 degree angle, they are loaded way too hot.

I don't find half of my 9mm cases to look at because they are usually coming down from the ozone layer when they hit the ground so I don't pay much attention to them. The torqueing, I pay a lot of attention to.

I use mostly Rugers and Smiths so I don't worry to much about hurting them. When I see where they are torqueing I back off until they stop torqueing and I haven't damaged any gun in 45 years so I stick by this philosophy.

Good luck with that!

[Metal god]

45acp

Brry's 230gr platted
Win case / trim .892
Fed #150 primer
OAL 1.240
powder : longshot
6.0/6.2/6.4/6.5/6.6/6.7/6.8/6.9/7.0

-------------------------------------------
9mm

Brry's 124gr platted
Fed case / trim .750
Fed #100 Primer
oal 1.125
powder : Auto comp
4.8/5.0/5.2/5.3/5.4/5.6/5.7
----------^---^---^---^---^
^^^^Over max^^^^^^^^
Now these are high but Brry's web page said you can start in the middle charge weight's of the jacketed bullets

We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data. Make sure data is below 1250fps unless you are using a Thick-Plated bullet that we list a higher max velocity for like the 9mm 124gr HBRN-TP that can be shot to 1500fps in open class guns like a .38 Super. Keep in mind that since our plated bullet has the same pressure curve as a hard cast bullet, the published cast data will be very close to what you will get with our plated bullets. If you use Jacketed data with our plated bullets you can get from 5% - 8% increase in velocity using that data.

hmm , I thought softer bullet means less pressure and less velocity or is that saying you can load them hotter ?

I ASSUMED I could go over a tad as well

----------------------------------------------------------------
9mm

Hornady 125gr HAP
Fed case / trim .750
Fed # 100 primers
OAL 1.050
Powder : Auto comp
4.2/4.4/4.6/4.5/4.6/4.7/4.8/4.9/5.0/5.1
OVER MAX -------------------------^---^
Hornady does not Have load data for there HAP but I emailed them and they said the 124gr XTP data would be fine to use

Firearms I plan to use for the test are :

Springfield XD9 almost 2k rounds with out one issue . GREAT firearm

Ruger SR45 600-ish rounds with no issues , Trigger sucks but I shoot it well .

I can wait until I get my Springfield 1911 next month If that would be better ?

[pete2]

Do not exceed published loads. The first pressure sign may be a kaboom otherwise.

[243winxb]

Hornady 125gr HAP Check the data at Hodgdon. 4.1 gr is listed as maximum. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol While your there, look at the 4 bullets using Auto comp. 124gr to 125gr .

[Metal god]

Do not exceed published loads. The first pressure sign may be a kaboom otherwise.

Very good point and the more I look at those Brry's 9mm loads the more I don't like what I see . The problem is I don't have nor can I find any Hard cast data using the auto comp . Those over max numbers are for a FMJ or Jacketed hollow point bullets so the data is not apples to apples really . Still though every time I look at it I think hmm .

In the 9mm head stamp matters; especially if you are working near the top. Certain head stamps can be mixed and will behave similarly, others not so much. Especially watch out for off label foreign brass.

Good to know thanks . The fact these were my first ever hand gun loads . I started from scratch . I did separate all my brass by head stamp and used the head stamp I had the most of . I trimmed all to a mid point length , Clean primer pockets and almost uniformed flash holes but stopped there . I do not want to presume anything so I'm taking it slow as if I've never loaded anything before . Right now I have 500+ Winchester cases in 45 prepped and 700+ Fed 9mm cases prepped . I also have many mixed and prepped cases in both calibers . I was going to get some good loads worked up in the head stamp specific cases . Then try the same loads in some mixed brass and see how much of a difference there is .

I will be shooting these over a chrono so that should help a bit

Hornady 125gr HAP Check the data at Hodgdon. 4.1 gr is listed as maximum.

Thanks for the link but I did check there as well as my hornady , Sierra , Lyman both 49th and cast bullet manuals . The Hodgdon site was way lower then the rest of my manuals and that gave me great pause because if Hornady is wrong that puts every load over max . It's why I contacted Hornady about the issue . The HAP was designed from the XTP bullet and I believe that's why Hornady said I can use the XTP data . How ever I did not tell them what the Hodgdon website has as there data

I wrote

Hi I'd like to know what load data to use when loading your 9mm 125gr HAP bullet . I have and use your manual 9th ed but it does not have the HAP load data . Can I use the 124gr XTP data in the manual

There reply was

The 124gr XTP data will work fine for this.

Maybe I should contact them again and this time give them the Hodgdon numbers and see what they say ?? My only thought as to why the Hodgdon data is so low is these bullets were designed for competition . Maybe they are loading them down for that reason because competitors don't load to max pressures . It's the only thing I can think of and I'm not sure that's even a reasonable thought .

[zeke]

There is no reliable means of estimating pressure from reading brass in pistol, unless you go way over pressure.

Assuming you can use jacketed load data with plated bullets may also get you into trouble, as larger diameter plated bullets can have higher friction coefficient and dia.

Perhaps good standard advise is to stick with load data from reliable sources and invest in chrono if you are pushing the limits?

[Hunter Customs]

Assuming you can use jacketed load data with plated bullets may also get you into trouble, as larger diameter plated bullets can have higher friction coefficient and dia.

Everything that zeke said is spot on and pay very close attention to what he said in the above quote.

The reason I say this is back when I was shooting competition (bowling pin shoots) I was running some hot but safe loads in my 45 ACP guns.
At a gun show I purchased some Barry's bullets as they looked like a bullet I could use.

I loaded them and noticed that when shooting them I was getting pressure spikes, went back checked my powder measure and everything else to do with my loads ; everything was up to snuff.

Then I took a handful of bullets and started checking them with a micrometer, the culprit was the bullets ranged from .451 to .458 in diameter, the bullet box said .451.
So don't assume anything when it comes to reloading.

[JeepHammer]

Depends somewhat on the firearm...
If it's OLD (Vintage, like me ) then don't exceed the 'Average' loads, don't even bump up to 'Maximum'...

When many of those old firearms were built, they couldn't even dream of powder like we have now, so the firearm simply isn't built to take pressure/pulse modern powders produce...

-----

If it's new, then you can creep up to maximum loads published.

If it KICKS harder,
Throws cases FARTHER,
That's a sign you are getting hotter than 'Standard' ammo.

With pistols that have a short slide ejection ports, that dent the brass mouth on the way out,
Then watch the dent, it will get more deformed as you go up in charge...
When you start getting 'D' shaped ejected case mouths, you are getting too hot.

If you see signs of primer flatting out, then you are into DANGEROUS territory.
Primers will normally flatten out before you get into the overpressure zone that will blow up the firearm or break expensive parts.
Back down a little so you don't hammer the firearm so much...

When you start seeing the hole in the bolt for the firing pin imprinted into the primer/case head stamp area,
Then you are WAY into the danger zone!

[243winxb]

SAAMI lists 9mm Luger +P at 38,500 PSI. The Hodgdon data would seem to be on the low side for use with unsupported chambers?? Hodgdon did remove the warning about unsupported when they made the new current website. http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ssure_CfPR.pdf

[Metal god]

I went ahead and pulled the top 4 loads of the 9mm Brry's . So my max load now is 5.3gr and I'm starting at 4.3gr . That is .1 above FMJ start load

That was a total of 20 bullets . I measured the diameter of them all . The box says they are to measure .356

I got
3 @ .356
12 @ .355
5 @ .354

I then measured 20 straight out of the box .

1 @ .356
19 @ .355

Not sure how scientific that is but does appear to show the bullets being pretty consistent before being seated . The fact they are .001 smaller does indicate they are consistently off . Next box I get I'll measure again and see how they are lot to lot .

[Jim Watson]

Hodgdon has 9mm Autocomp data for 124-125 gr cast, plated, and jacketed bullets.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

For some reason, the maximum load for Hornady HAP is MUCH lower than for any other bullet. Velocity is proportionately lower.

Y'all be careful, now, you hear?

[Metal god]

What is the abbreviation for cast bullets when looking at the Hodgdon website or in general for that matter . Other the RN , FMJ , JHP I'm kinda lost as to what all the bullets are .

Example : 125gr LCN

[Jim Watson]

LCN = Lead, Conical Nose

BERB = BERry's Bullets (Plated, not Barrys.)

[Metal god]

(Plated, not Barrys.)

oops

so what is BERB HBRN TP ?

Let see if I get this _
BERB =Berry's bullets
HBRN = holly base round nose
TP = Thick plated

[CowTowner]

HBRN = holly base round nose

Did you mean hollow base?

[Metal god]

Did you mean hollow base?

yep

This thread is not making me look so good . It's getting to the point of being quite funny Maybe I shouldn't be messing with highly combustible materials

I DON"T NEED NO BOOK LEARN

[Clark]

Metal god,
I beat you to becoming a grandfather by two months.
That happened 3 years after my parents died.
We like to keep 3 generations on hand, but we were stretched thin for a while.

In 45acp I would look out for 1) guppy belly case bulge or 2) too much recoil.
If you have 1) great case support and 2) ignore the recoil, the next thing that will stop you in a work up is way up there in high energy physics.