Casual Sale of Reloaded Bullets OK?

Jorah Lavin · December 23, 2000, 04:43 PM

Knowing that ignorance of the law is no excuse, can anyone tell me if you need an FFL or any other type of licence to sell bullets you've reloaded?

I'm picturing selling or trading between friends, not trying to start a small business building ammo...

-Moss

WESHOOT2 · December 23, 2000, 05:18 PM

Federal offense, recommend NOT doing it. Need FFL6.

jtduncan · December 23, 2000, 05:19 PM

NEVER unless you want trouble and liability.

Steve Smith · December 23, 2000, 05:22 PM

Having worked at a gun shop for a little while, this question actually came up. The owner told me that while buying non-new ammunition (whether it be reloaded or resold off-the-shelf stuff) was NOT illegal, it was jsut against his practices. The reason (and the reason you should maybe re-think selling your reloads) was because of the "what ifs." If you blow your own hand off with your own reloads, you have no one but yourself to blame..but if your buddy blows HIS hand off with your reload, don't be surprised if he's not your buddy anymore...oh yeah, don't be sureprised if you have a lawsuit on your hands, either.

Jorah Lavin · December 23, 2000, 05:33 PM

Thanks, folks. I realize now I think of it that the reason the guy who runs the local range can sell bullets is that he has an FFL.

Everyone made good points!

Monkeyleg · December 23, 2000, 05:40 PM

You might want to check this out : http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

Having read it again for the thousandth time, I can't see where you couldn't as long as it wasn't for interstate commerce. Of course, they can trip you up a thousand ways too.

I've often thought a nifty retirement job would be to do tailored reloads for guys who don't have the time but do have the money.
Really dial the loads in for the gun and for the specific purpose. Not only would I get to play around reloading, but I'd also need to test fire their guns when trying out the loads.

But, as has been said, the liability/insurance issue comes into play.

Dick

444 · December 23, 2000, 08:57 PM

I once sold a 1911 to a guy I worked with. He was not an experienced gun owner or shooter. From that moment on he bugged me to reload for him. I turned him down several times but finally gave in. You know the rest of the story. He went out and blew up the gun. I am 99.9% sure that it wasn't my loads. It sounded to me like he had an obstructed bore. I have loaded many, many thousands of rounds and never had a problem. I load on a single stage press and am very careful. I check and double check each operation........ I have been called paranoid, anal etc from my friends for the pains I take in reloading. But, he was shooting my reloads, so of course that is what caused it. He wasn't hurt, the gun was repaired (the barrel was ruined and had to be cut out of the slide), and he didn't sue me. Trust me, don't do it. I was lucky, I knew better.......

Cris · December 23, 2000, 11:12 PM

I am an FFL holder and when renewing my FFL, was going to get the proper licence for selling my reloads. At that time, it was more paperwork involved in the renewal process plus the additional paperwork for the 11% tax that was sent directly to the ATF office in Atlanta (same as manufacturing firearms). Along with the liability, it seemed to be more trouble than it was worth so I decided against it.
Cris

WESHOOT2 · December 24, 2000, 09:32 AM

MonkeyLeg,

Suggest you read it one more time.

Transferring ammo requires FFL6, otherwise it's a Federal offense (felony).

Casual, between friends, in-state, across state lines, with your friend's components, ALL ILLEGAL.

BATF collects the 11% excise tax directly. And they want it; it's theirs.

(Ammo manufacturing liability insurance is expensive hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!)(Ouch!)

alan · December 24, 2000, 01:47 PM

Without regard to federal or state licensing requirements, such as they might be, and I do NOT suggest that one disregard such material questions, have you thought about the possibilities of CIVIL LIABILITY, in the event your customer is injured, using the reloads you sold him, or even GAVE HIM AT NO CHARGE?

A posible example follows. You have a Model 1898 Mauser rifle, 7.92mm with the "S" bore, that's .323" dia., that you load FULL POWER ammunition for. Any Mauser 1898 so chambered, and in proper condition would likely safely fire this ammunition. You sell, or give some of these loads to a "friend" who also has a 7.92mm Mauser. Unfortunatley his rifle is the older .318" dia bore, which might fail under full power loads for the "s" bore rifles.

The lawyers might well have a high old time arguing as to whose fault is was, however the lawyers entertainment could prove very costly to you. How much money did you make on the deal, assuming that you sold the ammunition. How much value did you place on a lost "friendship". What might the ultimate costs of your "generosity" be, to you?

Commercial makers, from time to time, have had "problems", and they really do know what they are doing, and have "quality control and testing programs" in force that you cannot begin to imagine. Better safe, than very sorry.

Keith J · December 24, 2000, 03:30 PM

Better yet, have your friends buy their own components and have a reloading party. This is the best way to tutor a new reloader.

I cannot see any problems with this from a legal standpoint and if they set the machine up, liability is minimized.

WESHOOT2 · December 25, 2000, 02:52 PM

Keith J,

Ah.............

zot · December 26, 2000, 01:35 PM

I'm a FFL 07 manufacturer of firearms, but I can also sell
reloaded ammo, I don't because of liability, I sell powder,
primers, cases, and bullets, and will order anything else
anyone needs,I still pay tax on anything I sell. doing this
brings people in to buy guns, and helps spread the word I'll
buy whatever anyone wants as long as their legal, one thing
bothers me is I don't have to do a background check when I
sell non firearm items,no 4473 form to fill out,I wonder if
I've ever sold to a BG?

alan · December 26, 2000, 03:28 PM

Zot:

You wrote, in part, the following:

"... I'll buy whatever anyone wants as long as their legal, one thing bothers me is I don't have to do a background check when I sell non firearm items,no 4473 form to fill out,I wonder if I've ever sold to a BG?"

It's possible that you might have sold reloading components to a "BG" (Bad Guy?), though I suspect that the possibility is small. Personally, I find the picture of a BG sitting at his loading press, carefully making ammunition, difficult to conceive.

Regarding not having to do background checks or 4473's on "nonfirearms items", I suspect that the background checks might do at least as much HARM, as they do GOOD. This conclusion is based on the FACTS of law enforcement behavoir, for instance the FACT that the FBI is maintaining a registry of firearms. In that they are maintaining records of APPROVED TRANSACTIONS, that the law (Brady) says are not to be maintained, they are violating the hell out of the law.

Title 18 USC Section 926 1986 seems to prohibit the keeping of "lists of gun owners as could be used for gun confiscation". Since any such listing or registry could be used as an aid to confiscation, anyone involved in/with the keeping of such list or registry appears to be guilty of a FEDERAL FELONY, 4TH CLASS. By the way, the penalties for a 4th class felony seem more than slightly severe.

Cheapo · December 26, 2000, 05:47 PM

IIRC, there is quite a HORROR story (from Arizona, land of the infamous entrapment "straw man" "purchase" scam!) about a lifetime reloading enthusuast being charged with being an ammo "manufacturer" without a proper license, based on the laws we are discussing here.

The loading dates on his moderately large stash of reloads extend back to the early 1980s or 1970s--inconsistent with maintaining an inventory and maximizing the time value of your money.

If the law can be misused....

Well, that's what the Constitution was SUPPOSED to prevent.

Monkeyleg · December 26, 2000, 10:47 PM

Weshoot2, no thank you. I've read and re-read the US Code often enough that my head hurts. Besides, I just made a fool of myself over on Legal/Political trying to make heads or tails of the federal firearms codes. I don't like to do that kind of curtain call twice, at least not in one week.

Having said that, at what point are reloaders/handloaders "manufacturers?" If you make money? If you save money?
Time was I knew that if I got a certain kind of "service" from a woman, it was sex. And I knew what the definition of "is" is. And I knew that "the People" meant citizens on the street. I guess I've been pretty naive the last 50 years.

Dick

WESHOOT2 · December 27, 2000, 09:26 AM

Monkeyleg,

You become a 'manufacturer' if you transfer ammo you've made to someone.

zot · December 27, 2000, 01:01 PM

are the laws illegal? probably not, but am I going to break them? no.I think its a GOOD thing when I do a instacheck on someone and it comes back denied, and the person ADMITTS he
or she did had a domestic abuse case a few years ago where
he or she beat their kid or significant other,in Iowa no
waiting period on handguns as long as ya have a permit to
purchase, which overrides the Brady law.do criminals sit long hours on reloading machines? why not? do some build
pipe bombs with the powder they buy from me? maybe.go buy
a large amount of nitrate fertilizer and see if the BATF
shows up at your door,what the goverment did at Waco and other places was wrong, Okalahoma was wrong, and with the
population increasing, incidents will increase, laws will
get worse, you'll need a FFL just to reload for yourself.
the only way I see it,is follow the law and do the paper work, and make the instachecks.and if you feel the government is in violation of the law, take them to court,
or do I violate the law by following the law????sue me

KP95DAO · December 30, 2000, 03:34 AM

I used to load for others;but, I've narrowed this list down to a couple. This was brought about by one of my co-workers giving some rounds that I loaded for his Ruger 100 to another co-worker to use in his S$W M19. He thought it was really something to have some of my "hot rounds" that the other guy had used to kill a deer. When I tried to explain that it probally wouldn't be a good thing to shoot them in his gun; he just didn't understand. So now I load for my father-in-law and my son. At least I don't think they'll sue me. There is a friend (also a co-worker) whom I form cases for, as in 7.65 Argentine from 30-06. But even this I do with his rifle to make sure the headspace is correct. Bottom line is; if they will not take a bullet for you don't do IT for them!

December 23, 2000, 05:18 PM	#2
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Federal offense, recommend NOT doing it. Need FFL6. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 23, 2000, 05:19 PM	#3
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,686	NEVER unless you want trouble and liability. __________________ The Seattle SharpShooter Reloaded .223 Rem, 9mm, 40SW, 357 SIG, 10mm, 44 Mag, 45 ACP Today?

December 23, 2000, 05:33 PM	#5
Jorah Lavin Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: Indian Land, SC USA Posts: 593	Thanks! Thanks, folks. I realize now I think of it that the reason the guy who runs the local range can sell bullets is that he has an FFL. Everyone made good points!

December 23, 2000, 08:57 PM	#7
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	I once sold a 1911 to a guy I worked with. He was not an experienced gun owner or shooter. From that moment on he bugged me to reload for him. I turned him down several times but finally gave in. You know the rest of the story. He went out and blew up the gun. I am 99.9% sure that it wasn't my loads. It sounded to me like he had an obstructed bore. I have loaded many, many thousands of rounds and never had a problem. I load on a single stage press and am very careful. I check and double check each operation........ I have been called paranoid, anal etc from my friends for the pains I take in reloading. But, he was shooting my reloads, so of course that is what caused it. He wasn't hurt, the gun was repaired (the barrel was ruined and had to be cut out of the slide), and he didn't sue me. Trust me, don't do it. I was lucky, I knew better....... __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

December 23, 2000, 11:12 PM	#8
Cris Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2000 Location: Red River Valley Posts: 127	Taxes I am an FFL holder and when renewing my FFL, was going to get the proper licence for selling my reloads. At that time, it was more paperwork involved in the renewal process plus the additional paperwork for the 11% tax that was sent directly to the ATF office in Atlanta (same as manufacturing firearms). Along with the liability, it seemed to be more trouble than it was worth so I decided against it. Cris

December 23, 2000, 04:43 PM	#1
Jorah Lavin Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: Indian Land, SC USA Posts: 593	Knowing that ignorance of the law is no excuse, can anyone tell me if you need an FFL or any other type of licence to sell bullets you've reloaded? I'm picturing selling or trading between friends, not trying to start a small business building ammo... -Moss

December 23, 2000, 05:22 PM	#4
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Having worked at a gun shop for a little while, this question actually came up. The owner told me that while buying non-new ammunition (whether it be reloaded or resold off-the-shelf stuff) was NOT illegal, it was jsut against his practices. The reason (and the reason you should maybe re-think selling your reloads) was because of the "what ifs." If you blow your own hand off with your own reloads, you have no one but yourself to blame..but if your buddy blows HIS hand off with your reload, don't be surprised if he's not your buddy anymore...oh yeah, don't be sureprised if you have a lawsuit on your hands, either.

December 23, 2000, 05:40 PM	#6
Monkeyleg Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2000 Posts: 4,625	You might want to check this out : http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html Having read it again for the thousandth time, I can't see where you couldn't as long as it wasn't for interstate commerce. Of course, they can trip you up a thousand ways too. I've often thought a nifty retirement job would be to do tailored reloads for guys who don't have the time but do have the money. Really dial the loads in for the gun and for the specific purpose. Not only would I get to play around reloading, but I'd also need to test fire their guns when trying out the loads. But, as has been said, the liability/insurance issue comes into play. Dick

December 24, 2000, 09:32 AM	#9
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	MonkeyLeg, Suggest you read it one more time. Transferring ammo requires FFL6, otherwise it's a Federal offense (felony). Casual, between friends, in-state, across state lines, with your friend's components, ALL ILLEGAL. BATF collects the 11% excise tax directly. And they want it; it's theirs. (Ammo manufacturing liability insurance is expensive hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!)(Ouch!) __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 24, 2000, 01:47 PM	#10
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	selling of reloaded ammunition Without regard to federal or state licensing requirements, such as they might be, and I do NOT suggest that one disregard such material questions, have you thought about the possibilities of CIVIL LIABILITY, in the event your customer is injured, using the reloads you sold him, or even GAVE HIM AT NO CHARGE? A posible example follows. You have a Model 1898 Mauser rifle, 7.92mm with the "S" bore, that's .323" dia., that you load FULL POWER ammunition for. Any Mauser 1898 so chambered, and in proper condition would likely safely fire this ammunition. You sell, or give some of these loads to a "friend" who also has a 7.92mm Mauser. Unfortunatley his rifle is the older .318" dia bore, which might fail under full power loads for the "s" bore rifles. The lawyers might well have a high old time arguing as to whose fault is was, however the lawyers entertainment could prove very costly to you. How much money did you make on the deal, assuming that you sold the ammunition. How much value did you place on a lost "friendship". What might the ultimate costs of your "generosity" be, to you? Commercial makers, from time to time, have had "problems", and they really do know what they are doing, and have "quality control and testing programs" in force that you cannot begin to imagine. Better safe, than very sorry.

December 24, 2000, 03:30 PM	#11
Keith J Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2000 Posts: 469	Better yet, have your friends buy their own components and have a reloading party. This is the best way to tutor a new reloader. I cannot see any problems with this from a legal standpoint and if they set the machine up, liability is minimized.

December 25, 2000, 02:52 PM	#12
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Keith J, Ah............. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 26, 2000, 01:35 PM	#13
zot Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 1999 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 566	I'm a FFL 07 manufacturer of firearms, but I can also sell reloaded ammo, I don't because of liability, I sell powder, primers, cases, and bullets, and will order anything else anyone needs,I still pay tax on anything I sell. doing this brings people in to buy guns, and helps spread the word I'll buy whatever anyone wants as long as their legal, one thing bothers me is I don't have to do a background check when I sell non firearm items,no 4473 form to fill out,I wonder if I've ever sold to a BG?

December 26, 2000, 03:28 PM	#14
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	background checks and or 4473's for non firearms items Zot: You wrote, in part, the following: "... I'll buy whatever anyone wants as long as their legal, one thing bothers me is I don't have to do a background check when I sell non firearm items,no 4473 form to fill out,I wonder if I've ever sold to a BG?" It's possible that you might have sold reloading components to a "BG" (Bad Guy?), though I suspect that the possibility is small. Personally, I find the picture of a BG sitting at his loading press, carefully making ammunition, difficult to conceive. Regarding not having to do background checks or 4473's on "nonfirearms items", I suspect that the background checks might do at least as much HARM, as they do GOOD. This conclusion is based on the FACTS of law enforcement behavoir, for instance the FACT that the FBI is maintaining a registry of firearms. In that they are maintaining records of APPROVED TRANSACTIONS, that the law (Brady) says are not to be maintained, they are violating the hell out of the law. Title 18 USC Section 926 1986 seems to prohibit the keeping of "lists of gun owners as could be used for gun confiscation". Since any such listing or registry could be used as an aid to confiscation, anyone involved in/with the keeping of such list or registry appears to be guilty of a FEDERAL FELONY, 4TH CLASS. By the way, the penalties for a 4th class felony seem more than slightly severe.

December 26, 2000, 05:47 PM	#15
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	IIRC, there is quite a HORROR story (from Arizona, land of the infamous entrapment "straw man" "purchase" scam!) about a lifetime reloading enthusuast being charged with being an ammo "manufacturer" without a proper license, based on the laws we are discussing here. The loading dates on his moderately large stash of reloads extend back to the early 1980s or 1970s--inconsistent with maintaining an inventory and maximizing the time value of your money. If the law can be misused.... Well, that's what the Constitution was SUPPOSED to prevent.

December 26, 2000, 10:47 PM	#16
Monkeyleg Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2000 Posts: 4,625	Weshoot2, no thank you. I've read and re-read the US Code often enough that my head hurts. Besides, I just made a fool of myself over on Legal/Political trying to make heads or tails of the federal firearms codes. I don't like to do that kind of curtain call twice, at least not in one week. Having said that, at what point are reloaders/handloaders "manufacturers?" If you make money? If you save money? Time was I knew that if I got a certain kind of "service" from a woman, it was sex. And I knew what the definition of "is" is. And I knew that "the People" meant citizens on the street. I guess I've been pretty naive the last 50 years. Dick

December 27, 2000, 09:26 AM	#17
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Monkeyleg, You become a 'manufacturer' if you transfer ammo you've made to someone. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 27, 2000, 01:01 PM	#18
zot Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 1999 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 566	are the laws illegal? probably not, but am I going to break them? no.I think its a GOOD thing when I do a instacheck on someone and it comes back denied, and the person ADMITTS he or she did had a domestic abuse case a few years ago where he or she beat their kid or significant other,in Iowa no waiting period on handguns as long as ya have a permit to purchase, which overrides the Brady law.do criminals sit long hours on reloading machines? why not? do some build pipe bombs with the powder they buy from me? maybe.go buy a large amount of nitrate fertilizer and see if the BATF shows up at your door,what the goverment did at Waco and other places was wrong, Okalahoma was wrong, and with the population increasing, incidents will increase, laws will get worse, you'll need a FFL just to reload for yourself. the only way I see it,is follow the law and do the paper work, and make the instachecks.and if you feel the government is in violation of the law, take them to court, or do I violate the law by following the law????sue me

December 30, 2000, 03:34 AM	#19
KP95DAO Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2000 Posts: 699	Loading for others? I used to load for others;but, I've narrowed this list down to a couple. This was brought about by one of my co-workers giving some rounds that I loaded for his Ruger 100 to another co-worker to use in his S$W M19. He thought it was really something to have some of my "hot rounds" that the other guy had used to kill a deer. When I tried to explain that it probally wouldn't be a good thing to shoot them in his gun; he just didn't understand. So now I load for my father-in-law and my son. At least I don't think they'll sue me. There is a friend (also a co-worker) whom I form cases for, as in 7.65 Argentine from 30-06. But even this I do with his rifle to make sure the headspace is correct. Bottom line is; if they will not take a bullet for you don't do IT for them!