45/70 & 30-30 with BP

gasmandave · May 16, 2012, 08:22 AM

My limited understanding is that a 45/70 is a 45 cal bullet in front of 70 grns Black powder and that a 30-30 is a 30 cal in front of 30 grns BP. If so can they be hand loaded in the field with BP FFg or FFFg, primmers punched out and a new one inserted and bullet seated and fired from an H&R sigle shot without special tools?

Jim Watson · May 16, 2012, 08:38 AM

The system ought to work.
The old time scheutzen riflemen would shoot all day with one case.

But you are only half right. .30-30 never was a black powder caliber. I don't know how long you could go with black powder in it before it fouled out.

Shotput79 · May 16, 2012, 08:38 AM

gasmandave I'm thinking you may need to clean the cases with either after firing the round.You might get by cleaning the out side of the case and using something like a Lee Hand Loader for a couple rounds but your going to haft to clean those cases. I believe you may want to go ahead and load the rounds ahead of time and then go in the field. Some of the others may feel other wize.

Dell

PawPaw · May 16, 2012, 09:25 AM

As I understand the history, the .30-30 was the first commercial smokeless cartridge. While Winchester called it the .30 Winchester Center Fire, Marlin and UMC did not want the Winchester name on their products and called it the .30-30.

I wouldn't think that it would be a very good black powder cartridge, but I've never experimented with that propellant in that cartridge.

On the other hand, the .45-70 was originally a black powder cartridge, but the cartridge was made differently in those days. The old-timers used balloon head brass which held more powder than our solid web design today. I doubt that you could put 70 grains of powder in a common piece of .45-70 brass today without using a drop tube. I know that I've settled on a smaller charge for my BP cartridges, more closely approximating the old carbine load that used 55 grains of BP. It's easier to load and shoots just fine in my Sharps. If I'm going to do extended shooting with that rifle, I'll carry a milk jug, about half full of water with a squirt of dishwashing liquid. As I fire the cartridges, I drop the brass in that jug. It helps keep my brass clean and loosens the fouling until I can get home.

gasmandave · May 16, 2012, 10:51 AM

Kinda answers my question. Don't think it would be a viable idea.

Hawg · May 16, 2012, 11:30 AM

Being the 30-30 is a bottleneck you will need a drop tube to get enough powder in the cases to get compression. You can get IIRC 67 grains of bp into a modern 45-70 case.

B.L.E. · May 16, 2012, 09:06 PM

The .30-30 was always a smokeless cartridge. It got its name from being loaded with 30 grains of smokeless powder in the black powder cartridge nomenclature tradition.

I'm sure you could load it with black powder and get approximately .32-40 ballistics.

An empty .30-30 case holds about 45 grains of black powder when used as a powder measure.

Doug Bowser · May 17, 2012, 03:26 PM

THE .30-30 WOULD NOT DO WELL WITH bp loads. That is he reason WRA came out with the .32 Win Special. It also had a 1 in 16" twist, so to not foul up the barrel so quickley.

Doug

Hardcase · May 17, 2012, 03:41 PM

I second what Doug says. I've got two 1894s, one in .30-30 and the other in .32WS. The .30-30 got messier much sooner than the .32. I think that a big part of that is because the cast bullets for the .30-30 simply didn't have deep enough lube grooves compared to the .32. There was also a little leading in the .30-30 barrel, compared to none in the .32, again, I'm sure, because of insufficient lube. The (relatively) zippy twist probably didn't help matters, either.

It only took one afternoon for me to figure out that BP in a .30-30 was a bad idea.

jaguarxk120 · May 17, 2012, 07:17 PM

The target shooters that used blackpowder in small bore (30 cal.) rifles cleaned between shots.

B.L.E. · May 17, 2012, 08:55 PM

The early 1894s also could be had in .32-40, a real black powder round. With a .30 caliber bore, you would probably need to wipe the bore between shots, something that a lot of single shot rifle target shooters do anyway. You might also experiment with grease cookies or lubed felt wads between the powder and the bullet.

The bottlenecked .303 British was originally loaded with black powder.

Hawg · May 17, 2012, 09:49 PM

Quote:

The bottlenecked .303 British was originally loaded with black powder.

Well yeah but the powder was pelletized and put in the case before the neck was formed.

Gator Weiss · June 1, 2012, 09:33 PM

30-30 did begin life as a cartridge engineered for BP. Very quickly smokeless loadings came into the picture making it among the first of the smokeless loaded sporting cartridges.

Yes, you can load the 30-30 with BP. There are some things for you to consider. You may not WANT to load your 30-30 with jacketed bullets if you are going to play with BP. You might create a serious problem with pressures if you dont know what you are doing.

You should consider using cast lead bullets of a suitable diameter for the barrel you are shooting them through. While not essential, a lubricated cast lead bullet is the way to go for BP cartridge loadings. Dry bullets of a suitable diameter will work.

There are some lead bullet loadings in certain cartridges that are paper-patched loadings. You probably wont use paper-patched bullets in the 30-30.

Air space in the case is a problem with BP loadings and you certainly dont want to "compress" a black powder load either in the modern 30-30 thin walled cases. There is a product in the grocery store called CREAM OF WHEAT that some will use as a filler in a BP loading to prevent air space in the case. Dont overfill and compress your load.

If you are serious about loading BP in cartridges, it is a great hobby. But you really need to know what you are doing. It is not something you can "casually" do. Find someone experienced at it, and spend some time with that person and learn before you leap off into it.

The 45-70 is a very easy cartridge to handload - especially with BP loadings. There is lots of information available and lots of accessories available. There is no shoulder to worry with on that straight-walled case. It sizes easily and if you are going to use the same cases over and over and over, dont crimp, unless they are going into a magazine or a double-barrelled weapon.

Good luck with your project.

B.L.E. · June 1, 2012, 10:02 PM

My very first experiment with black powder in cartridges was .44 Magnum and jacketed bullets. Yes, jacketed bullets because that's what I had on hand and there was no internet around to tell me not to use them. Also, I had no idea that the powder had to be compressed.

They shot just fine, pretty accurate too. Gun didn't blow up. Kicked about like a .44 Special.

I only loaded a half dozen or so. I didn't feel like cleaning a mess like that off off my Ruger Super Blackhawk every time I shot it.

Maybe it only proves that there is a special guardian angel that looks after drunks, idiots, and black powder shooters.

Hawg · June 1, 2012, 10:21 PM

Quote:

30-30 did begin life as a cartridge engineered for BP. Very quickly smokeless loadings came into the picture making it among the first of the smokeless loaded sporting cartridges.

It was designed for bp but was never sold loaded with bp. It was loaded with smokeless to complement the new 1894 Winchester as a sales gimmick.

darkgael · June 9, 2012, 05:38 AM

Quote:

30-30...........among the first of the smokeless loaded sporting cartridges.

I thought that it was the first. Introduced in 1895. What others were there?
Pete

Jim Watson · June 9, 2012, 06:29 AM

The .30-40 Krag 1892 is the earliest US smokeless round that I know of.
And it took a while to get those in issue, and a while longer for Winchester to pick it up for sporting rifles, so the .30-30 may well have been the first actually in use.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · June 9, 2012, 11:26 AM

Took three 1894 Winchesters off the wall for a look see. 25-35 & 30-30 both were engraved on their barrels: Specifically for smokeless powder. __32-40 had no engraving concerning its powder preference.

mykeal · June 9, 2012, 07:41 PM

Chambered for many cartridges, including 30-40 Krag., so smokeless was in use before 1895...

rep1954 · June 10, 2012, 12:28 PM

The 30/30 was the first smokeless rifle cartridge. The 30/40 Krag was the first smokless rifle cartridge to be used by the US military. The 32SPL was a cartridge that came out 6 years after the 30/30 and was a blown out 30/30 case. While the 32SPL was factory loaded with smokeless powder it was designed to be reloaded with black powder.

darkgael · June 11, 2012, 02:08 PM

Quote:

The 30/30 was the first smokeless rifle cartridge. The 30/40 Krag was the first smokless rifle cartridge to be used by the US military.

Yep. The 30-30 was the first smokeless cartridge for sporting use (as opposed to military use.). The 30-40 Krag, however, was offered for sporting use in 1893 when Winchester chambered its High Wall single shot for the cartridge.
The Germans had the 7X57 Mauser in 1892....another military smokeless use.

Over the years, on this and other fora, a number of shooters have investigated loading the .30-30 with BP, as well as the .30-06 and other cartridges. The results have never been impressive though the process itself is simple enough....fill the case with as much BP as it will hold and still allow a bullet to be seated and the powder compressed slightly. Enjoy.
Pete

Jim Watson · June 12, 2012, 07:41 AM

Quote:

The Germans had the 7X57 Mauser in 1892....another military smokeless use.

But not by the Germans. THEY got the 8x57 in 1888, playing catchup with the French 8mm Lebel. Spain and Latin America were the main customers for the 7x57. Turkey and Belgium had been buying 7.65x53 before that.

SIGSHR · June 12, 2012, 09:29 PM

AFAIK the 30-30 was designed from the start as a smokeless powder cartridge, the 32 Winchester Special was designed to be sold as factory reloaded smokeless round that could then be reloaded with black powder.

Smokin_Gun · June 12, 2012, 10:53 PM

The earliest .303 Brit ammo are WWII ...I knew of or have fired were filled with coordite sticks...anyone know the circa of these sticks with steel jacketed bullets? As the ones I have are marked K 1941 ...

Jim Watson · June 12, 2012, 11:01 PM

I don't have the literature handy, but .303 went from compressed black to Cordite very early on, late 1880s, maybe. It was erosive so they went from Metford to Enfield rifling and to Cordite MD (MoDified or maybe ModifieD) with more nitrocellulose and less nitroglycerine.
The Mk VII spitzer bullet replaced various roundnose and Dervish Stomping hollowpoints before WW I and stayed in use as long as the .303 was on issue, along with AP and some boattail types.
They used Cordite MD for a long long time, too. You will see ammunition with a Z in the headstamp or box label indicating straight nitrocellulose powder, too.

May 16, 2012, 08:22 AM	#1
gasmandave Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2012 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 223	45/70 & 30-30 with BP My limited understanding is that a 45/70 is a 45 cal bullet in front of 70 grns Black powder and that a 30-30 is a 30 cal in front of 30 grns BP. If so can they be hand loaded in the field with BP FFg or FFFg, primmers punched out and a new one inserted and bullet seated and fired from an H&R sigle shot without special tools?

May 16, 2012, 09:25 AM	#4
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	As I understand the history, the .30-30 was the first commercial smokeless cartridge. While Winchester called it the .30 Winchester Center Fire, Marlin and UMC did not want the Winchester name on their products and called it the .30-30. I wouldn't think that it would be a very good black powder cartridge, but I've never experimented with that propellant in that cartridge. On the other hand, the .45-70 was originally a black powder cartridge, but the cartridge was made differently in those days. The old-timers used balloon head brass which held more powder than our solid web design today. I doubt that you could put 70 grains of powder in a common piece of .45-70 brass today without using a drop tube. I know that I've settled on a smaller charge for my BP cartridges, more closely approximating the old carbine load that used 55 grains of BP. It's easier to load and shoots just fine in my Sharps. If I'm going to do extended shooting with that rifle, I'll carry a milk jug, about half full of water with a squirt of dishwashing liquid. As I fire the cartridges, I drop the brass in that jug. It helps keep my brass clean and loosens the fouling until I can get home. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

May 16, 2012, 10:51 AM	#5
gasmandave Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2012 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 223	thanks Kinda answers my question. Don't think it would be a viable idea.

May 17, 2012, 03:41 PM	#9
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	I second what Doug says. I've got two 1894s, one in .30-30 and the other in .32WS. The .30-30 got messier much sooner than the .32. I think that a big part of that is because the cast bullets for the .30-30 simply didn't have deep enough lube grooves compared to the .32. There was also a little leading in the .30-30 barrel, compared to none in the .32, again, I'm sure, because of insufficient lube. The (relatively) zippy twist probably didn't help matters, either. It only took one afternoon for me to figure out that BP in a .30-30 was a bad idea. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

June 9, 2012, 07:41 PM	#19
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	1895 Winchester Chambered for many cartridges, including 30-40 Krag., so smokeless was in use before 1895... Last edited by mykeal; June 9, 2012 at 07:47 PM.

May 16, 2012, 08:38 AM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,536	The system ought to work. The old time scheutzen riflemen would shoot all day with one case. But you are only half right. .30-30 never was a black powder caliber. I don't know how long you could go with black powder in it before it fouled out.

May 16, 2012, 08:38 AM	#3
Shotput79 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 186	gasmandave I'm thinking you may need to clean the cases with either after firing the round.You might get by cleaning the out side of the case and using something like a Lee Hand Loader for a couple rounds but your going to haft to clean those cases. I believe you may want to go ahead and load the rounds ahead of time and then go in the field. Some of the others may feel other wize. Dell

May 16, 2012, 11:30 AM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Being the 30-30 is a bottleneck you will need a drop tube to get enough powder in the cases to get compression. You can get IIRC 67 grains of bp into a modern 45-70 case.

May 16, 2012, 09:06 PM	#7
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	The .30-30 was always a smokeless cartridge. It got its name from being loaded with 30 grains of smokeless powder in the black powder cartridge nomenclature tradition. I'm sure you could load it with black powder and get approximately .32-40 ballistics. An empty .30-30 case holds about 45 grains of black powder when used as a powder measure.

May 17, 2012, 03:26 PM	#8
Doug Bowser Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Posts: 163	THE .30-30 WOULD NOT DO WELL WITH bp loads. That is he reason WRA came out with the .32 Win Special. It also had a 1 in 16" twist, so to not foul up the barrel so quickley. Doug

May 17, 2012, 07:17 PM	#10
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,619	The target shooters that used blackpowder in small bore (30 cal.) rifles cleaned between shots.

May 17, 2012, 08:55 PM	#11
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	The early 1894s also could be had in .32-40, a real black powder round. With a .30 caliber bore, you would probably need to wipe the bore between shots, something that a lot of single shot rifle target shooters do anyway. You might also experiment with grease cookies or lubed felt wads between the powder and the bullet. The bottlenecked .303 British was originally loaded with black powder.

June 1, 2012, 09:33 PM	#13
Gator Weiss Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2007 Posts: 117	30-30 did begin life as a cartridge engineered for BP. Very quickly smokeless loadings came into the picture making it among the first of the smokeless loaded sporting cartridges. Yes, you can load the 30-30 with BP. There are some things for you to consider. You may not WANT to load your 30-30 with jacketed bullets if you are going to play with BP. You might create a serious problem with pressures if you dont know what you are doing. You should consider using cast lead bullets of a suitable diameter for the barrel you are shooting them through. While not essential, a lubricated cast lead bullet is the way to go for BP cartridge loadings. Dry bullets of a suitable diameter will work. There are some lead bullet loadings in certain cartridges that are paper-patched loadings. You probably wont use paper-patched bullets in the 30-30. Air space in the case is a problem with BP loadings and you certainly dont want to "compress" a black powder load either in the modern 30-30 thin walled cases. There is a product in the grocery store called CREAM OF WHEAT that some will use as a filler in a BP loading to prevent air space in the case. Dont overfill and compress your load. If you are serious about loading BP in cartridges, it is a great hobby. But you really need to know what you are doing. It is not something you can "casually" do. Find someone experienced at it, and spend some time with that person and learn before you leap off into it. The 45-70 is a very easy cartridge to handload - especially with BP loadings. There is lots of information available and lots of accessories available. There is no shoulder to worry with on that straight-walled case. It sizes easily and if you are going to use the same cases over and over and over, dont crimp, unless they are going into a magazine or a double-barrelled weapon. Good luck with your project.

June 1, 2012, 10:02 PM	#14
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	My very first experiment with black powder in cartridges was .44 Magnum and jacketed bullets. Yes, jacketed bullets because that's what I had on hand and there was no internet around to tell me not to use them. Also, I had no idea that the powder had to be compressed. They shot just fine, pretty accurate too. Gun didn't blow up. Kicked about like a .44 Special. I only loaded a half dozen or so. I didn't feel like cleaning a mess like that off off my Ruger Super Blackhawk every time I shot it. Maybe it only proves that there is a special guardian angel that looks after drunks, idiots, and black powder shooters.

June 9, 2012, 06:29 AM	#17
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,536	The .30-40 Krag 1892 is the earliest US smokeless round that I know of. And it took a while to get those in issue, and a while longer for Winchester to pick it up for sporting rifles, so the .30-30 may well have been the first actually in use.

June 9, 2012, 11:26 AM	#18
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Took three 1894 Winchesters off the wall for a look see. 25-35 & 30-30 both were engraved on their barrels: Specifically for smokeless powder. __32-40 had no engraving concerning its powder preference.

June 10, 2012, 12:28 PM	#20
rep1954 Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Location: Mid Western Michigan Posts: 1,187	The 30/30 was the first smokeless rifle cartridge. The 30/40 Krag was the first smokless rifle cartridge to be used by the US military. The 32SPL was a cartridge that came out 6 years after the 30/30 and was a blown out 30/30 case. While the 32SPL was factory loaded with smokeless powder it was designed to be reloaded with black powder.

June 12, 2012, 09:29 PM	#23
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	AFAIK the 30-30 was designed from the start as a smokeless powder cartridge, the 32 Winchester Special was designed to be sold as factory reloaded smokeless round that could then be reloaded with black powder.

June 12, 2012, 10:53 PM	#24
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	The earliest .303 Brit ammo are WWII ...I knew of or have fired were filled with coordite sticks...anyone know the circa of these sticks with steel jacketed bullets? As the ones I have are marked K 1941 ... __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

June 12, 2012, 11:01 PM	#25
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,536	I don't have the literature handy, but .303 went from compressed black to Cordite very early on, late 1880s, maybe. It was erosive so they went from Metford to Enfield rifling and to Cordite MD (MoDified or maybe ModifieD) with more nitrocellulose and less nitroglycerine. The Mk VII spitzer bullet replaced various roundnose and Dervish Stomping hollowpoints before WW I and stayed in use as long as the .303 was on issue, along with AP and some boattail types. They used Cordite MD for a long long time, too. You will see ammunition with a Z in the headstamp or box label indicating straight nitrocellulose powder, too.