Point Of Aim Question

WCW · January 5, 2011, 12:19 PM

Took my new 1858 Remington (first BP pistol) out for an initial test run yesterday. I didn’t really mess around much with different loads, as I just wanted to get a feel for the gun. I found the pistol to be surprisingly accurate, but with the particular load I was using ( a .38 special case full of Pyrodex ‘P‘ with an overpowder wad), it was grouping over six inches low at approx 25 yards with the sight picture I like to use. With the groups I was getting I doubt I could do anything to make this particular pistol shoot any better. Before another trip to the range, I thought I would ask if anyone else has encountered this, and if you found that adjusting loads to correct for drop really made any significant difference in accuracy. Anyone have a suggestion on a load I might try to correct for this amount of drop? I really don't want to start hacking on the front sight if I can help it.

AirForceShooter · January 5, 2011, 12:32 PM

you're finding the fun of BP's
The amount of ammo is critical.
So is the ball size. .454 or .457?
Wads or filler.

Have fun.
It can get as accurate as any centerfire gun you've ever shot.

And everybody else at the range is OMG

AFS

Ideal Tool · January 5, 2011, 05:00 PM

Hello, WCW. Welcome to the facinating world of black powder and fixed hand gun sights! Don't feel too bad...the Colt reproductions usually shoot a foot high at that range! Before you start hacking..try different loads, both with powder charges...especially I would try REAL black powder. I have a 1980"s era re-make by Colt of an 1860 Army .44. This thing would group round balls high and far to the left. I got so discusted with it, I cleaned it up, slathered RIG over it and put it away for about 6 years...Until I obtained a Lyman 450229 hollow-base mould. With 18gr. fffg, Super Grex filler, & lubed Lyman conical it shot 3" high, with perfect windage, and put 5 into one ragged hole! Only use a file on these guns as a LAST resort.

rdstrain49 · January 5, 2011, 08:09 PM

If you do resort to a file, go slow. Removing .010" of front sight will raise point of impact about 2 - 2 1/2" at 25 yards depending on your load. Go very slow with a file.

Hellgate · January 5, 2011, 08:31 PM

A slightly larger ball will likely shoot a little bit higher. If you were to get the LEE 200gr conical mold, those would likely print to POA. A heavier bullet will hit higher. A larger ball with a little more friction might print higher too (.457 vs .451). I second the motion to use real BP if you can get it as that is what they were made for and may print differently than the Pyro-P. On two Piettas and two Ubertis (Remingtons) I had to file a bit off the top of the front sight to get the POA to = POI. On 3 SS Euroarms remmies I needed a taller front sight.

WCW · January 5, 2011, 09:09 PM

Thanks for all the input guys. It looks like I have a lot of options to try.

I was using .454 round balls and the pistol shot beautiful groups. When I shot a lot of silhouettes with my BP rifle I used a combination of powder charges and projectiles to adjust point of impact at the various ranges and thus wouldn’t have to adjust the sights. That worked out perfectly. I’m in the process of whipping up a series of dippers before my next trip to the range to see if I can change the POI with just a load adjustment and still maintain good groups. I do not really want to go filing on the front sight if at all possible, and certainly not before trying a whole lot of other ideas that you have all mentioned.

I normally use black powder exclusively in my rifle and wanted to try it in the pistol. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any 3F at my usual source, so went with the Pyrodex. I should be able to pick up some 3F next week as that’s when their powder order comes in.

I always loved shooting BP, and this new handgun has just replaced my .357 and .45 as a fun gun to shoot!

zippy13 · January 5, 2011, 09:20 PM

I'm with Hellgate. Try some conicals before you start any front sight modification. My R-58 went from 6-inches low and a little left to POI and a little left with the LEE 200-grain.

HisSoldier · January 6, 2011, 11:48 PM

One irritating factor for me in my shooting is that what most people consider a proper target picture doesn't make sense to me. I want the bullet to make a hole just above the top of the front post, others apparently like to put the top just at the bottom of the colored center, or about 3" low by my method, so they can see the whole target. My argument is that if you are shooting at a quarter at 20 yards by the common method you have to guess what distance to hold it low, where my method is the same whether the target is 2" or 30" in diameter.

My point is that any discussion of this sort should identify which method is being used, or, maybe I'm the only one that holds right on the center of the target?

napp · January 7, 2011, 12:53 AM

I agree that when a statement is made about a grouping that is low or high is confusing unless information about POA is included. I use a 6 o'clock hold, so a gun that shoots three inches above POA is perfect on a six inch bullseye target.
Obviously, the same gun would work against you with a center of bull hold.

Here's a link to some info published by The U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit (USAMU) on the subject of sight pictures. http://www.odcmp.org/0907/USAMU_SightPicture.asp

It seems pretty clear that there is no one right way. The article is directed at service rifle shooting; but the principles are the same. Just keep in mind, that this discussion centers on target shooting; and might not always be applicable in a combat/defensive scenario.

Ideal Tool · January 7, 2011, 01:44 AM

Hello, HisSolder. I agree with you about poi being right on top of where f.s. was held. I used to try and hold at 6:00 and get poi on center, but then I got to thinking, how can you hit anything smaller, without alot of guess work? It just makes more sense for it to shoot where it looks..Except of course those old colts that were sighted for 50 yds, & you were expected to aim at you opponents belt plate...or horse! But I still hold at 6:00 on a paper target..only for sight repeatability..only my groups are AT 6:00.

Model-P · January 7, 2011, 10:38 PM

Quote:

My argument is that if you are shooting at a quarter at 20 yards by the common method you have to guess what distance to hold it low, where my method is the same whether the target is 2" or 30" in diameter.

And that will work fine.........at 20 yards.

My point is, you will still be required to hold up or down if you are not shooting at your 20 yard sighting distance. There is no cure-all. I get better groups using a 6-o'clock sight picture, but, like you, I like to know where my shots will be at a given range (usually 25 yards in my case for hand guns) without having to worry about the size of the Bull.

HisSoldier · January 9, 2011, 08:37 PM

As I said, I know my method is not the normal one.

joe sixgun · January 9, 2011, 09:24 PM

Aim center mass !!!!!!!!!!! You want poa to = poi. it is the only way to never need to guess.

arcticap · January 9, 2011, 10:27 PM

But POA=POI sighting only holds true out to the distance where the projectile drops below the line of sight. Beyond that and the target will be blocked due to the need to aim high. IMO that's not quite as desirable as being able to hold low and being able to shoot farther while still seeing the target for [multiple] rapid target aquisition, such as in a combat situation, silhouettes, hunting, moving targets etc...

Model-P · January 9, 2011, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Aim center mass !!!!!!!!!!! You want poa to = poi. it is the only way to never need to guess.

Again, this is only true at a given range. Any other range will still require guesswork. Unfortunately, no cartridge shoots perfectly flat on this doggon gravity-ridden planet

Jbar4Ranch · January 10, 2011, 01:41 AM

If it can sustain a speed of ~25,000 mph, it will shoot perfectly flat in relation to the surface of the Earth... which won't be a flat trajectory, really, but rather a circular track some 8000 miles in diameter.

Remember to duck about an hour later...

Win_94 · January 10, 2011, 03:23 AM

.451" ball using 30 grains of FFFg; I get a 40 foot zero, then a 6" drop at 50 yards. Great accuracy.

Off a Rest, Black Powder Pistol
...
Off-hand, Black Powder, 50 yards

Hawg · January 10, 2011, 06:07 AM

Quote:

But POA=POI sighting only holds true out to the distance where the projectile drops below the line of sight. Beyond that and the target will be blocked due to the need to aim high.

My front sight never comes off target. I use the barrel as a sight extension.

WCW · January 10, 2011, 09:17 AM

I should have mentioned that the sight picture I like to use when target shooting is to have the bullets strike just above the front post of the sight at the usual range I shoot at (usually 20-25 yards). I seem to shoot better groups this way.

I picked up some Goex 3F this weekend and hope to do some experimenting with different charges and use of a filler this week if I can make it out to the range. I also have a few swaged lead 200 gr semi-wadcutters I used in .45 ACP that I might try to see just what that weight does for POI versus POA. I tried to find some suitable hollow base conicals but didn’t have any luck with that. I see the purchase of a new bullet mold in my future.

mrappe · January 10, 2011, 09:25 AM

My 1858 Pietta shoots exactly to point of aim at 15yds with 30 grn Goex and a .454 ball and no wad. It seems to shoot better than any of my other pistols including the centerfire ones and I have never modified the front sight. I am not sure where it shoots at 25 yrds. i will have to check and see.

Noz · January 10, 2011, 10:22 AM

The Remingtons are shipped with an intentionally high front sight. The idea is for you to select a load you like than file the front sight to get POI=POA.
as noted above, file very carefully. You can't put it back. Fire a shot, one stroke of the file. Fire a shot etc.

Hawg · January 10, 2011, 10:48 AM

Quote:

The Remingtons are shipped with an intentionally high front sight.

Older Pietta's and Uberti still may have sights closer to the originals that shot high at 25 yds.

mrappe · January 10, 2011, 04:47 PM

I bought mine new from Cabelas in about 2000 and have never had to do anything to it. It has always shot dead on up to about 15-20 yards. Past that I have not tried. It just may be the kind and amount of powder you put in it.

Model-P · January 10, 2011, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Older Pietta's and Uberti still may have sights closer to the originals that shot high at 25 yds.

I know my old Uberti sure does; Several inches high.

By the way, I would recommend shooting groups and finding center, then taking averages before filing the front sight down, not just one shot at a time (unless you shoot one hole groups all day long). Even overcast versus sunny can make a difference too.

Model-P · January 10, 2011, 07:57 PM

Quote:

If it can sustain a speed of ~25,000 mph, it will shoot perfectly flat in relation to the surface of the Earth... which won't be a flat trajectory, really, but rather a circular track some 8000 miles in diameter. Remember to duck about an hour later...

LOL! That's funny as heck!

Unfortunately, you didn't take drag into account. I guess one could get far enough away from the surface of the earth and the effects of the atmosphere until the desired velocity would do the same thing. How high would I need to be to shoot a bullet and have it orbit at 950 fps?

January 5, 2011, 12:19 PM	#1
WCW Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2007 Posts: 132	Point Of Aim Question Took my new 1858 Remington (first BP pistol) out for an initial test run yesterday. I didn’t really mess around much with different loads, as I just wanted to get a feel for the gun. I found the pistol to be surprisingly accurate, but with the particular load I was using ( a .38 special case full of Pyrodex ‘P‘ with an overpowder wad), it was grouping over six inches low at approx 25 yards with the sight picture I like to use. With the groups I was getting I doubt I could do anything to make this particular pistol shoot any better. Before another trip to the range, I thought I would ask if anyone else has encountered this, and if you found that adjusting loads to correct for drop really made any significant difference in accuracy. Anyone have a suggestion on a load I might try to correct for this amount of drop? I really don't want to start hacking on the front sight if I can help it.

January 5, 2011, 08:31 PM	#5
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	A slightly larger ball will likely shoot a little bit higher. If you were to get the LEE 200gr conical mold, those would likely print to POA. A heavier bullet will hit higher. A larger ball with a little more friction might print higher too (.457 vs .451). I second the motion to use real BP if you can get it as that is what they were made for and may print differently than the Pyro-P. On two Piettas and two Ubertis (Remingtons) I had to file a bit off the top of the front sight to get the POA to = POI. On 3 SS Euroarms remmies I needed a taller front sight. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

January 5, 2011, 09:09 PM	#6
WCW Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2007 Posts: 132	Thanks Guys Thanks for all the input guys. It looks like I have a lot of options to try. I was using .454 round balls and the pistol shot beautiful groups. When I shot a lot of silhouettes with my BP rifle I used a combination of powder charges and projectiles to adjust point of impact at the various ranges and thus wouldn’t have to adjust the sights. That worked out perfectly. I’m in the process of whipping up a series of dippers before my next trip to the range to see if I can change the POI with just a load adjustment and still maintain good groups. I do not really want to go filing on the front sight if at all possible, and certainly not before trying a whole lot of other ideas that you have all mentioned. I normally use black powder exclusively in my rifle and wanted to try it in the pistol. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any 3F at my usual source, so went with the Pyrodex. I should be able to pick up some 3F next week as that’s when their powder order comes in. I always loved shooting BP, and this new handgun has just replaced my .357 and .45 as a fun gun to shoot!

January 6, 2011, 11:48 PM	#8
HisSoldier Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2007 Location: Oregoncoast Posts: 1,793	One irritating factor for me in my shooting is that what most people consider a proper target picture doesn't make sense to me. I want the bullet to make a hole just above the top of the front post, others apparently like to put the top just at the bottom of the colored center, or about 3" low by my method, so they can see the whole target. My argument is that if you are shooting at a quarter at 20 yards by the common method you have to guess what distance to hold it low, where my method is the same whether the target is 2" or 30" in diameter. My point is that any discussion of this sort should identify which method is being used, or, maybe I'm the only one that holds right on the center of the target? __________________ CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.

January 7, 2011, 12:53 AM	#9
napp Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Location: Georgia Posts: 152	HisSoldier I agree that when a statement is made about a grouping that is low or high is confusing unless information about POA is included. I use a 6 o'clock hold, so a gun that shoots three inches above POA is perfect on a six inch bullseye target. Obviously, the same gun would work against you with a center of bull hold. Here's a link to some info published by The U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit (USAMU) on the subject of sight pictures. http://www.odcmp.org/0907/USAMU_SightPicture.asp It seems pretty clear that there is no one right way. The article is directed at service rifle shooting; but the principles are the same. Just keep in mind, that this discussion centers on target shooting; and might not always be applicable in a combat/defensive scenario. __________________ napp

January 5, 2011, 12:32 PM	#2
AirForceShooter Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Location: Sarasota (sort of) Florida Posts: 1,296	you're finding the fun of BP's The amount of ammo is critical. So is the ball size. .454 or .457? Wads or filler. Have fun. It can get as accurate as any centerfire gun you've ever shot. And everybody else at the range is OMG AFS

January 5, 2011, 05:00 PM	#3
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, WCW. Welcome to the facinating world of black powder and fixed hand gun sights! Don't feel too bad...the Colt reproductions usually shoot a foot high at that range! Before you start hacking..try different loads, both with powder charges...especially I would try REAL black powder. I have a 1980"s era re-make by Colt of an 1860 Army .44. This thing would group round balls high and far to the left. I got so discusted with it, I cleaned it up, slathered RIG over it and put it away for about 6 years...Until I obtained a Lyman 450229 hollow-base mould. With 18gr. fffg, Super Grex filler, & lubed Lyman conical it shot 3" high, with perfect windage, and put 5 into one ragged hole! Only use a file on these guns as a LAST resort.

January 5, 2011, 08:09 PM	#4
rdstrain49 Member Join Date: December 30, 2010 Location: South Central, Iowa Posts: 65	If you do resort to a file, go slow. Removing .010" of front sight will raise point of impact about 2 - 2 1/2" at 25 yards depending on your load. Go very slow with a file.

January 5, 2011, 09:20 PM	#7
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	I'm with Hellgate. Try some conicals before you start any front sight modification. My R-58 went from 6-inches low and a little left to POI and a little left with the LEE 200-grain.

January 7, 2011, 01:44 AM	#10
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, HisSolder. I agree with you about poi being right on top of where f.s. was held. I used to try and hold at 6:00 and get poi on center, but then I got to thinking, how can you hit anything smaller, without alot of guess work? It just makes more sense for it to shoot where it looks..Except of course those old colts that were sighted for 50 yds, & you were expected to aim at you opponents belt plate...or horse! But I still hold at 6:00 on a paper target..only for sight repeatability..only my groups are AT 6:00.

January 9, 2011, 08:37 PM	#12
HisSoldier Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2007 Location: Oregoncoast Posts: 1,793	As I said, I know my method is not the normal one. __________________ CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.

January 9, 2011, 09:24 PM	#13
joe sixgun Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: west michigan Posts: 185	Aim center mass !!!!!!!!!!! You want poa to = poi. it is the only way to never need to guess. __________________ DON'T TREAD ON ME !

January 9, 2011, 10:27 PM	#14
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	But POA=POI sighting only holds true out to the distance where the projectile drops below the line of sight. Beyond that and the target will be blocked due to the need to aim high. IMO that's not quite as desirable as being able to hold low and being able to shoot farther while still seeing the target for [multiple] rapid target aquisition, such as in a combat situation, silhouettes, hunting, moving targets etc... Last edited by arcticap; January 9, 2011 at 10:40 PM.

January 10, 2011, 01:41 AM	#16
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	If it can sustain a speed of ~25,000 mph, it will shoot perfectly flat in relation to the surface of the Earth... which won't be a flat trajectory, really, but rather a circular track some 8000 miles in diameter. Remember to duck about an hour later... __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

January 10, 2011, 03:23 AM	#17
Win_94 Junior member Join Date: August 21, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 214	.451" ball using 30 grains of FFFg; I get a 40 foot zero, then a 6" drop at 50 yards. Great accuracy. Off a Rest, Black Powder Pistol ... Off-hand, Black Powder, 50 yards

January 10, 2011, 09:17 AM	#19
WCW Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2007 Posts: 132	I should have mentioned that the sight picture I like to use when target shooting is to have the bullets strike just above the front post of the sight at the usual range I shoot at (usually 20-25 yards). I seem to shoot better groups this way. I picked up some Goex 3F this weekend and hope to do some experimenting with different charges and use of a filler this week if I can make it out to the range. I also have a few swaged lead 200 gr semi-wadcutters I used in .45 ACP that I might try to see just what that weight does for POI versus POA. I tried to find some suitable hollow base conicals but didn’t have any luck with that. I see the purchase of a new bullet mold in my future.

January 10, 2011, 09:25 AM	#20
mrappe Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 256	My 1858 Pietta shoots exactly to point of aim at 15yds with 30 grn Goex and a .454 ball and no wad. It seems to shoot better than any of my other pistols including the centerfire ones and I have never modified the front sight. I am not sure where it shoots at 25 yrds. i will have to check and see. __________________ God is fluxing me which is good but it is not fun.

January 10, 2011, 10:22 AM	#21
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	The Remingtons are shipped with an intentionally high front sight. The idea is for you to select a load you like than file the front sight to get POI=POA. as noted above, file very carefully. You can't put it back. Fire a shot, one stroke of the file. Fire a shot etc.

January 10, 2011, 04:47 PM	#23
mrappe Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 256	I bought mine new from Cabelas in about 2000 and have never had to do anything to it. It has always shot dead on up to about 15-20 yards. Past that I have not tried. It just may be the kind and amount of powder you put in it. __________________ God is fluxing me which is good but it is not fun.