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Old December 20, 2006, 06:22 PM   #1
beezaur
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How Accurate?

Please pardon my nearly complete ignorance.

I have shot centerfire handguns at a range exactly once, at a self-defense training course. Normally I shoot at the end of a farm access road.

So, how accurate can a guy expect to be with some skill, at various ranges? Single action versus double action? How accurate (typically) is a gun like a Ruger GP100?

This sounds funny, even as I type it. Believe it or not, I just never shoot handguns at paper targets. Lots of experience with rifle and even compound bow, just not handguns at proper targets.

Scott
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Old December 20, 2006, 07:24 PM   #2
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We Routinely Shoot Tin Cans At 100 Yards And #15 Size

Vegetable cans at 250 yards with everything from 32mag sixguns to 45colt sixguns. Get to practising.
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Old December 20, 2006, 07:39 PM   #3
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Vegetable cans, eh?

These must be cans for those giant pumpkins my father-in-law grows?

Scott
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Old December 20, 2006, 08:06 PM   #4
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I was at my local indoor range today with my 4" GP100. Shooting with a two-hand grip, standing, and in double action, I had a few 18 shot groups clustered into about 4", with the exception of a few called flyers. I'm not a kid any more, and I can't hold quite as steady as most of the folks on this Forum, so I think the GP is a pretty darn accurate handgun.

Chuck
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Old December 20, 2006, 08:45 PM   #5
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The gun will shoot between 1" and 3" depending on ammo etc. @25yd. If you can keep all your shots on a paper plate or sheet of printer paper at 15yd you are in the top 40%. if you can keep them all on at 25yd you are far better than 90% of handgun shooters. Dont let anyone tell you what group they got "except for flyers" Handgun shooting is a much less accurate more difficult endevor than rifle shooting. Good luck.
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Old December 20, 2006, 11:01 PM   #6
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If you can shoot fist sized groups (5 shots) at 25 yards, you're doing pretty good.
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Old December 21, 2006, 12:18 AM   #7
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A normal GP will go well under an inch at 25 yards, and likely be somewhere around 3" at 100 yards with a load it likes. It would not shock me at all to see a GP in a machine rest go well under 3" at 100 yards either. This is mechanical accuracy, what the gun is capable of.

Everything after that is operator. Very seldom do I run into anyone that can outshoot me at the only indoor range in my town, and on an average day with a decent gun I can put ten shots in a 4" group shooting two hands unsupported. I know for a fact that there are guys out there that are a WORLD better than I am because I have and do shoot with them, but when compared to average guys on any given day at the local indoor range I am far and away above average. I would say the average shooter here would have trouble staying inside 15" at 25 yards, and a good shooter would be 8" or less.

Cut time constraints to 2 or more shots per second and the average shooter is not even capable of making a group on a sheet of plywood. Cut it to 4 shots per second and most cannot physically manipulate the gun fast enough and if they can they cannot keep all shots on the backstop. I can put 4 shots per second on a man sized target at 25 yards using a decent Govt 1911 and full power ball ammo. There are plenty of guys out there better than I am, I know this because I have and do shoot with guys much better than I am.

How, and at what distance the shots are taken is a HUGE factor. I am a really poor group shooter. Give me all day off a rest and I won't do much if any better than I would shooting a 10 shot group in 10 seconds at 25 yards. I shoot competitively with guys that can shoot groups off the bench 5 TIMES smaller than I can with the exact same gun and load, but I kill them with reasonable hits and far faster times. Then there are guys that can shoot incredibly small groups from the bench, shoot incredibly small groups offhand. and shoot incredibly well at incredible speeds regardless of circimstances. I am just hoping to be a bit above average in all respects.
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Old December 21, 2006, 12:47 AM   #8
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I haven't been shooting regularly over the last three years, but the last time I was at the range shooting 7 yard combat range I decided to set a standard for the yahoo in the next lane. With my 6" 686+ I put 6 out of 7 shots in the same .45" hole shooting SA offhand. I am not a great shooter, but when weekend warriors start machoing it up about hitting the ground and target holders I like to let them know some people are not impressed.

With some effort from a decent revolver you should expect the same or better. You can extrapolate that out the the longer distances if you add a factor for wind, lighting and eyes.

I normally have groups within the X ring with careful double action shooting at the same distance. Unfortunately I am a compulsive trigger puller and really have to concentrate to space them out for good results.
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Old December 21, 2006, 08:47 AM   #9
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How accurate will vary on who is holding the firearm. A good revolver like the GP100, S&W 686 or the like are very accurate right out of the box, the question is how accurate are you? Any limitations on accuracy will more than likely come from you and not a modern firearm (within reason). I think a good 4"-6" revolver in 357 mag is a must for any collector and a excellent choice for the first time gun owner. You can shoot the cheaper and more controlable 38 special for target practice. The full house mag rounds are a excellent man stopped and can be used on deer size game, so it is a very useful caliber. The key to anyone accuracy is practice, practice, practice. It is like bowling, somebody who visits a bowling alley once a year isn't likely to bowl a 250 game. Talk is cheap on forums like this, claims of 6 357 rounds in a one whole group are quite hard to believe. If you can put all 6 rounds in a paper plate at 15 yards you are a decent shot.
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Old December 21, 2006, 10:44 AM   #10
Guy B. Meredith
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Yes, I should have kept a photo of the target. Surprised the heck out of me. But the gun is up to it.

Oh, and the 7th .38 spl round hit about 1 inch to 7:00 of the other hole.

Putting all 7 .38 spl rounds on a paper plate SA at 15 yards with a 6" 686+ is not difficult, even for this mediocre shooter.
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Old December 21, 2006, 01:44 PM   #11
beezaur
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4" or 6"

How much difference does a 6" barrel make in your shooting compared to a 4"?

Scott
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Old December 21, 2006, 02:02 PM   #12
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Hi Scott,
I don't think barrel lenght per se makes a huge difference, as long as we consider 4" and 6", sight radius lenght does, at least in slow fire practice.
In general, I shoot better with 6", but this doesn't really surprise me, because I think sights on revolvers are often made so that you get best sight picture (one handed) with a 6" barrel. Increased sight radius also makes alignment errors easier to see. On the other hand, some shot shy shooters wait too long to take the shot with longer barrels for this reason and perform better with a 4".

Carlo
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Old December 21, 2006, 02:17 PM   #13
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Allow me to add my two cents since I find my own GP-100 (6" barrel) to be one of the easiest handguns to shoot well.

On those days when my head is back where it belongs, 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards appear with increasing regularity.

It's a well made firearm.
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Old December 21, 2006, 02:33 PM   #14
beezaur
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Revolver sights are an interesting thing. You never see sights like them (at least I don't) on autos.

I quickly found that the stock front sight on my GP100 "goes grey" and gets lost against most of my backgrounds. I have a replacement on the way from Ruger with a red insert. I noticed Millet has some with orange inserts. In the mean time I have painted my front sight red, which helps a lot.

I am used to 3-dot sights on my .45, and have been thinking of doing that to my GP100 as well. Trijicon will do a tritium 3-dot system with green in the front and yellow in the back. Taking low-light training with my .45 (all green tritium) I noticed it was hard to tell which green dot was what.

Why no 3-dots on revolvers? Are they less accurate? Less traditional?

Scott

P.S. Murdered a Fed-Ex box at 35 yards today -- pie plate sized group 2-handed, single action w/full-power 158-gr .357s. A starting place anyway.
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Old December 22, 2006, 12:08 AM   #15
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Quote:
A normal GP will go well under an inch at 25 yards, and likely be somewhere around 3" at 100 yards with a load it likes. It would not shock me at all to see a GP in a machine rest go well under 3" at 100 yards either. This is mechanical accuracy, what the gun is capable of.
I just happen to have an article where six different 6" 357s were machine rest tested with 14 different loads at 25 , 50 , 75 and 100 yards for 12 shot groups at each distance.

Indeed the GP was able to group under an inch at 25 yards with 3 different loads , the best measuring 0.77". With the remaining 11 loads @ 25yds the worst was 2.43".

At 100 the best the GP did was 3.70" and 3 others in the 4"+ range. The worst group out of the remaining 10 loads opening up to 9.98"!

The overall accuracy winner of that particular test was the Smith 686.
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Old December 22, 2006, 12:30 AM   #16
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So, my guess at average performance at each distance is pretty close.....

I used to own a GP that would shoot at or just under 3" at 100 yards from sandbags with a 10X scope on it, so it wouldn't surprise me at all to see one do a good bit better from a machine rest. From what I saw my GP was pretty average except for the 10X scope
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Old December 27, 2006, 11:22 PM   #17
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Just before Xmas I took my 6 " K-38 to the range with some 125 gr loads it likes. I was getting nice ( maybe a bit less than 2" ) @20 yd. with a bit of elbow support. The young fellow in the next slot complimented me and after chatting a bit, I offerred to let him shoot my little tack driver. Bad mistake. Five groups of 5 shots in 1.5". Deflated my ego baloon in a hurry! Just goes to show. Most of the accuracy thing is in the hands of the shooter.
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Old December 28, 2006, 12:58 AM   #18
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You have to try them and see what works best, both revolver and ammo. I have a 6" .22LR Smith that's quite accurate, but the 2" Smith .38 snubby can do almost as well once you find the right ammo. In the case of the snubby, either 125 or 148gr loads seem to work best. Lighter than that and it stinks.
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Old December 30, 2006, 08:04 PM   #19
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Quote:
I haven't been shooting regularly over the last three years, ... I put 6 out of 7 shots in the same .45" hole shooting SA offhand. I am not a great shooter, but when weekend warriors start machoing it up ... I like to let them know some people are not impressed.
:barf: Cue Church Lady doing the Superior Dance.

Or maybe you missed the target 6 of 7. Everyone has to learn, i bet you weren't Annie Oakley from you first trigger pull. Thanks for gracing us with your comments, I have a new hero!
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Old December 30, 2006, 08:12 PM   #20
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i don't know about your ruger but if you really want to be impressed with what some guys can do with a handgun go to an ihmsa match and watch them knock down steel animals at 200 yards!! if i remember right the rams at 200 yards represent an 18 inch target..... and the guys i've seen can hit em very regularly............
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Old December 30, 2006, 11:38 PM   #21
Guy B. Meredith
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A quick bit of math. Half inch holes at 7 yds are roughly equivalent to 1.5 at the 25 yd range mentioned above by other forum members.

This shooter probably won't be able to repeat 6 rounds of .38 spl in a half inch hole often without support, but from comments above there are several others on this forum who can. You can let them be your heroes.
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Old December 31, 2006, 09:11 AM   #22
357 Plato
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Beezaur: I have a S&W 686-5 with a 6” barrel. According to a lot of people a 686 is supposed to be one of the most accurate 357 magnum revolvers ever produced. Well it didn’t do me much good in the beginning.

Mechanical accuracy is a useless term. It is what you can do with a given revolver that counts.

I can not tell you what to do. I can tell you what I did:

To begin with I had problems keeping my groups under 10” at 25 meters. One hand unsupported that was – two hand shooting didn’t help much. Then I tried a M28 with a 6” barrel. I did a lot better. I tried two hand supported. Wow sub 2” groups at 25 meters. I tried the same with my 686. I could not do the same.

I was about to dump my 686. I wanted to hunt down a M27 or M28. Then the owner of the M28 told me that he had a trigger job on the M28.

I went back to my 686. I realized that my trigger was very heavy. I had a pro give my 686 a trigger job. It was a new gun. I could almost reproduce the sub 2” groups at 25 meters. Two hand shooting with one elbow leaning against a wall. I have later changed the sights. The combat plastic did not help my eyes.

Today my 686 is the most accurate guns I have ever shot.

I don’t think there is a lot of difference between Ruger, S&W or Colt (to name a few) when it comes to accuracy. But I think that it makes a world of difference whether the gun fits you.

If you have a good gun to begin with, there are 3 things you can successfully modify: Stocks, trigger and sights.

The rest is hard work on your part.

Best of luck.

(Sorry for the loooooong post)
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