DARPA 'Smart' bullets

DaleA · April 30, 2015, 12:44 AM

I don't know exactly why but the DARPA smart bullets are in the news again.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/29/us/us-...guided-bullet/

Quote:

The system has been developed by DARPA's Extreme Accuracy Tasked Ordnance program, known as EXACTO.

Details in the video are a little scarce. The text says it's .50 caliber ammo but in the video they show a box of 9mm Blazer ammunition that I'm guessing is just box stock ammo.

They show an illustration of a boat tailed bullet with three bands on it and say there is an optical sensor in the nose of the bullet and thee are tiny fins (presumably in the bands) that steer the bullet to its target.

They didn't mention electronics or batteries or how you 'tell' the bullet what the target is - maybe that's coming in the future.

Evan Thomas · April 30, 2015, 09:15 AM

Presumably there's a laser in the targeting system.

And I'd love to know what the per-round cost will be once the bullet is in production...

Glenn E. Meyer · April 30, 2015, 09:26 AM

It's the Glock 72 in 50 AE with targetable bullets that home in on the CT Laser contact lens that you wear.

Ruger480 · April 30, 2015, 09:51 AM

For those who haven't seen the GLOCK 72 you can youtube it here

You'll want to skip to the 21 second mark.

bandaid1 · April 30, 2015, 10:45 AM

That will go nice with my phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.

Skans · April 30, 2015, 10:57 AM

I laughed when I saw the box of Blazer ammo.

kilimanjaro · April 30, 2015, 11:00 AM

My evil design for global domination using nanotechnology miniature warhead rockets with loiter capability, nose cameras, and facial recognition software slaved to drivers license photo databases is looking better all the time.

zukiphile · April 30, 2015, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleA

They didn't mention electronics or batteries or how you 'tell' the bullet what the target is - maybe that's coming in the future.

As I understand the idea, the nose opens and an arm extends to knock on the door of the target. If the target answers, the arm clobbers it with a wooden mallet.

CowTowner · April 30, 2015, 01:47 PM

Quote:

As I understand the idea, the nose opens and an arm extends to knock on the door of the target. If the target answers, the arm clobbers it with a wooden mallet.

I sure miss them old Looney Tunes cartoons.

DaleA · April 30, 2015, 03:42 PM

Quote:

the nose opens and an arm extends to knock on the door of the target. If the target answers, the arm clobbers it with a wooden mallet.

Priceless.

bandaid1 · May 1, 2015, 07:13 AM

Looking into this a little more, I can sum up my findings in one word-Boondoggie.

Hooyah

hartcreek · May 2, 2015, 05:22 AM

What I wonder is where is the money actually going that is being directed to this project that defys physics.

kilimanjaro · May 3, 2015, 11:16 AM

I guarantee you guided munitions are well within the boundaries of physics.

Glenn E. Meyer · May 3, 2015, 12:41 PM

Let's get back on track and not say silly things about physics. Guided gun fired projectiles is old news with cannons. There is no reason as Kilm. stated that such tech couldn't be applied to smaller rounds.

TXAZ · May 3, 2015, 02:04 PM

5 years ago the company I worked for looked at small-arms guided projectile technology.

You can read that thread here:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...highlight=poll

Clearly hunters were not interested.

There are several key issues that were solved before our cannon fuze business was sold off. Based on the smallest rounds with smart fuzes in many nations inventories, swapping proximity for directional electronics is not difficult, nor going to a 1/2" diameter projectile. The actuators to 'gently nudge', without destabilizing, the projectile toward the target can be very simple or complex.
Short range guidance = simple, long range (X-thousand yards) = not simple.

Further there is a not-so-obvious study that variants need to consider: smooth bore or rifled barrel. Several factors come to play and 1-size does not fit all.

A .50 BMG was chosen at the time because it was large enough to shrink existing ruggedized electronics, high BC, and provides more internal space to work with. I expect that is similar reason for the EXACTO round size. And in the future that will also shrink to infantry rifles.

I don't think hunters are willing to pay the $$$ per round, although clearly TrackingPoint is selling $10K+ rifles. If I had a machine shop this would be fun to build a prototype, as the electronics are easy.
I don't expect these rounds will be available to the public in the near future, as the ability for one person to make major international political change is too great and difficult to defend against at great distances.

Still, fun to watch.

TXAZ · May 4, 2015, 02:51 PM

Vanya asked:

Quote:

Presumably there's a laser in the targeting system.

And I'd love to know what the per-round cost will be once the bullet is in production...

On both XACTO and our commercial venture, both use an IR (changeable) laser, one is pulsed the other is CW.
The commercial venture gun mod est cost was a few hundred $'s. The bullets in initial production would be OM $100 each. Expensive for a deer, cheap for certain others. Higher production rates would bring cost down to $30-50 per round. The commercial round requires rifling, I suspect the same for XACTO.

Skans · May 4, 2015, 03:18 PM

Quote:

I don't think hunters are willing to pay the $$$ per round,

Why would I pay more for a bullet that can kill a deer if I just point a rifle in the vicinity of one? I might as well pay a friend, who is a better shot than I am, less money to sit up in a tree stand and bag a deer for me while I'm still sleeping back at camp.

Moomooboo · May 4, 2015, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skans

Why would I pay more for a bullet that can kill a deer if I just point a rifle in the vicinity of one? I might as well pay a friend, who is a better shot than I am, less money to sit up in a tree stand and bag a deer for me while I'm still sleeping back at camp.

Well legally you cant have your friend do that. And remmeber not everyone can shoot. Even with a scope

Evan Thomas · May 4, 2015, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXAZ

On both XACTO and our commercial venture, both use an IR (changeable) laser, one is pulsed the other is CW.
The commercial venture gun mod est cost was a few hundred $'s. The bullets in initial production would be OM $100 each. Expensive for a deer, cheap for certain others. Higher production rates would bring cost down to $30-50 per round. The commercial round requires rifling, I suspect the same for XACTO.

Thanks for the info.

I'm a bit puzzled by the requirement for a rifled barrel, unless the bullet is spin-stabilized at first, and the fins deploy later in its flight, as described here. If the bullet is fin-steered from the get-go, it seems to me that one would need a smooth bore, as in the design described here.

NukemJim · May 20, 2015, 02:13 PM

Was chatting with a PR person from the .gov about this (patient's visitor) he told me that they use a 50 calibre smoothbore not a rifled barrel for the XACTO System.

skizzums · May 20, 2015, 03:36 PM

100$ actually seems pretty reasonable for a bullet with a guaranteed name on it. This little clip shows the trajectories of the live fire tests, which for whatever reason, they don't actually show.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2015/04/...uided-bullets/

Unlicensed Dremel · May 21, 2015, 11:06 PM

I just don't see how this is possible. What possible mechanism is used to steer the bullet like a missile? I would have to have propulsion jets, and a radio receiver, no?

NukemJim · May 22, 2015, 10:07 AM

" I would have to have propulsion jets, and a radio receiver, no?"

Uhm.. No.

My understanding is that there is a laser sensor in the nose of the projectile and there are "things" that stick out to induce drag and change the path of the projectile that way.

As always I could be wrong and anyone who has better data than I should post.

Unlicensed Dremel · May 22, 2015, 10:22 AM

Interesting.

I can envision the "drag-induced direction changers" as opposed to jet propulsion - that makes perfect sense.

But I'd like to learn more how a laser can sense where the target is. Sounds wickedly sophisticated.

Blue Grass · May 22, 2015, 05:31 PM

I can see the military and LE uses of such a round. It would probably not be for civilian use. It might be loaded with "cop killer" bullets.

April 30, 2015, 09:15 AM	#2
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	Presumably there's a laser in the targeting system. And I'd love to know what the per-round cost will be once the bullet is in production... __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

April 30, 2015, 09:26 AM	#3
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	It's the Glock 72 in 50 AE with targetable bullets that home in on the CT Laser contact lens that you wear. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

May 3, 2015, 12:41 PM	#14
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Let's get back on track and not say silly things about physics. Guided gun fired projectiles is old news with cannons. There is no reason as Kilm. stated that such tech couldn't be applied to smaller rounds. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

May 3, 2015, 02:04 PM	#15
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	5 years ago the company I worked for looked at small-arms guided projectile technology. You can read that thread here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...highlight=poll Clearly hunters were not interested. There are several key issues that were solved before our cannon fuze business was sold off. Based on the smallest rounds with smart fuzes in many nations inventories, swapping proximity for directional electronics is not difficult, nor going to a 1/2" diameter projectile. The actuators to 'gently nudge', without destabilizing, the projectile toward the target can be very simple or complex. Short range guidance = simple, long range (X-thousand yards) = not simple. Further there is a not-so-obvious study that variants need to consider: smooth bore or rifled barrel. Several factors come to play and 1-size does not fit all. A .50 BMG was chosen at the time because it was large enough to shrink existing ruggedized electronics, high BC, and provides more internal space to work with. I expect that is similar reason for the EXACTO round size. And in the future that will also shrink to infantry rifles. I don't think hunters are willing to pay the $$$ per round, although clearly TrackingPoint is selling $10K+ rifles. If I had a machine shop this would be fun to build a prototype, as the electronics are easy. I don't expect these rounds will be available to the public in the near future, as the ability for one person to make major international political change is too great and difficult to defend against at great distances. Still, fun to watch. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

May 20, 2015, 02:13 PM	#20
NukemJim Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2002 Posts: 287	Was chatting with a PR person from the .gov about this (patient's visitor) he told me that they use a 50 calibre smoothbore not a rifled barrel for the XACTO System. __________________ "Half of being smart is knowing what you are dumb at" "Guns shoot bullets. People shoot people."

April 30, 2015, 09:51 AM	#4
Ruger480 Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2013 Location: Central Iowa Posts: 720	For those who haven't seen the GLOCK 72 you can youtube it here You'll want to skip to the 21 second mark.

April 30, 2015, 10:45 AM	#5
bandaid1 Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2013 Posts: 116	That will go nice with my phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.

April 30, 2015, 10:57 AM	#6
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	I laughed when I saw the box of Blazer ammo.

April 30, 2015, 11:00 AM	#7
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	My evil design for global domination using nanotechnology miniature warhead rockets with loiter capability, nose cameras, and facial recognition software slaved to drivers license photo databases is looking better all the time.

May 1, 2015, 07:13 AM	#11
bandaid1 Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2013 Posts: 116	Looking into this a little more, I can sum up my findings in one word-Boondoggie. Hooyah

May 2, 2015, 05:22 AM	#12
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	What I wonder is where is the money actually going that is being directed to this project that defys physics.

May 3, 2015, 11:16 AM	#13
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	I guarantee you guided munitions are well within the boundaries of physics.

May 20, 2015, 03:36 PM	#21
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	100$ actually seems pretty reasonable for a bullet with a guaranteed name on it. This little clip shows the trajectories of the live fire tests, which for whatever reason, they don't actually show. http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2015/04/...uided-bullets/ __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

May 21, 2015, 11:06 PM	#22
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	I just don't see how this is possible. What possible mechanism is used to steer the bullet like a missile? I would have to have propulsion jets, and a radio receiver, no?

May 22, 2015, 10:07 AM	#23
NukemJim Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2002 Posts: 287	" I would have to have propulsion jets, and a radio receiver, no?" Uhm.. No. My understanding is that there is a laser sensor in the nose of the projectile and there are "things" that stick out to induce drag and change the path of the projectile that way. As always I could be wrong and anyone who has better data than I should post. __________________ "Half of being smart is knowing what you are dumb at" "Guns shoot bullets. People shoot people."

May 22, 2015, 10:22 AM	#24
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Interesting. I can envision the "drag-induced direction changers" as opposed to jet propulsion - that makes perfect sense. But I'd like to learn more how a laser can sense where the target is. Sounds wickedly sophisticated.

May 22, 2015, 05:31 PM	#25
Blue Grass Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Posts: 398	I can see the military and LE uses of such a round. It would probably not be for civilian use. It might be loaded with "cop killer" bullets.