Issn Ryu Karate

[redstategunnut]

If you don't fight on the ground in your "martial art" it is a demonstration sport, not a self-defense system. If you get promoted merely because you memorized a ritual, you are not involved in a self-defense system. Unless you are training all day every day, if you can go from walking in the door with a check to "black belt" in a few short years, good luck with that martial art when you need it.

[T. O'Heir]

Go do it as a thing to do with your kids, getting some exercise and forget about everything else. Bruce Lee was shot in the back and his son died as a result of negligence.
"...The ability to rise up if need be!..." You can very likely do that now. Just being the guy who 'says stop that' and can confidently talk, matters. Most criminals and rectal orifi will back off. Your size or martial arts skills don't matter either.

[MLeake]

T. O'Heir, Bruce Lee died of pneumonia, he wasn't shot. His son was killed by a prop-master's negligence on a movie set, so negligence was involved, but I don't see your points. Also, based on your attitude that anybody can rise up, I guess all you need is to carry a gun. No need to do silly things like go to the range or take any training courses... you'll just step up when the time comes. It'll be natural for you, right?

Nocturnus31, I think we've covered that different schools have their emphasis in different places, and that the OP should look for a school that teaches what he wants to learn. By the way, if I ever throw a roundhouse kick at your head, it will mean I've already dropped you to your knees; even then, I'd use a knee. I don't like flashy kicks, myself - too much balance and reaction time is sacrificed. They look cool, but for practical purposes, kicks to the groin and knees are much more useful.

redstategunnut, ground arts are useful in certain circumstances, and should be part of a well-rounded course of study. However, where I train, our normal emphasis is on avoiding going to the ground, or on learning to escape and get back up quickly, as going to the ground when the BG has friends is not a good thing.

There are some other benefits of training that some folks seem to ignore.

1) Conditions one to take a hit or kick, or get grabbed or choked, and to deal with it. Those MMA guys under discussion earlier don't shrug things off because they are pure of heart and have the strength of ten men, they do it because they've conditioned themselves to take shock and pain, and keep going, and also because they are in excellent shape.

2) Conditions one to hit, kick, grab, lock, or choke others. Go to a class sometime, and watch how tentative most people are about attacking. This is very often due to them not wanting to hurt the other person. One of the hardest things for me to do is to get a new student to try to really hit me in the face. Most will try to pull the punch, or aim wide. I usually have to tell them, multiple times, to really hit me - it's my job to evade or deflect the punch. If they hit me, it's my fault, not theirs - if they don't try to hit me, my technique will get screwed up.

3) Conditions one to move, instead of freeze.

So, will training for a while turn you into Georges St Pierre? Of course not, in the vast majority of cases.

Will training at a school that actually focuses on self-defense help you defend yourself better than would training at a school that focuses on point-sparring? Of course.

Should schools that guarantee belts over a specified period of time or with a given expenditure of cash be avoided like the plague? Most definitely.

Does that mean training, in general, is pointless? Not at all.

But just like in any other sort of training (firearms, private pilot, calculus II, etc) the student's attitude and efforts matter at least as much as the instructor's talents and training philosophy. Quite often, the weak link in martial arts training (just as in firearms training, private pilot training, or calculus II) is the student.

So, find a school that shares your training goal (self-defense, if that's your primary goal); put real effort into it in the dojo; don't limit your training to the dojo (IE there's still the gym, conditioning training, yoga, etc that you can and should do on your own time); and always stay aware of your attitude.

And expect improvement, not miracles.

[MLeake]

As I think about it, there are also some benefits we haven't really discussed, but that are still real.

1) Learning how to fall and roll. In my case, this helped me with downhill skiing, of all things. In aikido and aiki-jutsu, falling and rolling are viewed as pro-active, not reactive. One doesn't wait until one's joints are hyper-extended, one feels the lock coming on and throws oneself into a roll or fall to protect the joint. Perceiving falling as pro-active makes falling much less scary. As far as skiing went, I was able to rapidly move up to diamond and double diamond trails, once I realized that if I grew uncomfortable with speed or with an upcoming, ultra-tight turn, I could just toss my body uphill from my skis into a side fall, stop, and regroup.

In a training partner's case, extensive practice in rolling came in handy when a little old lady pulled out in front of his chopper. He flew over her hood, hit the ground in a shoulder roll, and came up with just some scuffed leather and no injuries beyond bruises.

2) Improved balance. A lot of people see a slow form, like in Tai Chi, and think, "What value is there in moving so slowly?" Try it sometime. If you can change directions and shift balance in super-slow-mo, you'll find it very easy to do it in normal speed. Slow speeds reveal poor foot placement and balance, and also can show where effort is being wasted. Slow speed drills therefore increase efficiency and economy of motion, and improve balance. Note that improved balance, posture, and footwork can really improve shooting skills... but who in this forum would care about that?

3) (Potentially) improved overall fitness. Where I'm currently training, we work out when it's hot and humid. We start out with 50 knuckle pushups, 50 crunches, a bunch of planks, running in place, jumping jacks as standard. Then we'll add things. Yesterday, one of the warm-ups involved several sets of one partner lying on his back, the other assuming a sort of push-up position above and slightly forward of him; guy on the ground grab the other guy's gi, and using a pull-up form, pulls his body up and forward across the mat; up guy advances position, and down guy does another pull-up. Cross the room several times this way, changing positions each leg. Then, we picked up various target pads, and did a round robin of ten kicks or punches on each pad, from either hand and foot. Again, this was the warmup. We did a few other things in there, too, like military style low crawls and jujutsu style shrimping. Everybody was sweating pretty hard before we started on any technique training.

4) Not to be overlooked: it's fun. And, by the way, OP, of the four of us who trained yesterday, three of us are 43, all class of '86. Not sure about the other guy, but think he's late 30's. And the three 43 year olds also hit the shooting range together with some frequency. Some of my longest lasting friendships have been with people from dojos where I've trained over the years.

Now, there are potential downsides. Overconfidence has been alluded to by several. Of course, overconfidence isn't a risk when it comes to CCW... Also, time and effort are required, and those are often precious. Money is usually required, too - although the organizations where I train usually only charge enough to pay the rent and replace broken training equipment. In such organizations, instructors don't get paid, or else they get paid a token amount.

And, of course, there's injury. Over the years, I've broken my left big toe (guy went for a takedown, slipped, and his knee fell square on my toe), dislocated both thumbs (thankfully not at the same time), had more cuts inside my mouth than I care to think about, sprained my neck, suffered chronic wrist pain (from nikkyo locks) for a couple years (those finally went away last year).

In training accidents, I've dislocated one partner's shoulder (he resisted taking a fall or roll until way too late in the throw - he said that himself) and just yesterday hyper-extended another's elbow with an arm bar (he was trying to show me I was out of position on his arm by resisting; meanwhile, I was shifting position because I could tell I was a bit off; we both felt it when one of his ligaments shifted and rolled around the elbow a bit; I let off as soon as I felt that - I felt bad about it, he looked at it as having been his own fault).

I won't count the number of times I've hit somebody a bit harder than anticipated, or they've done the same to me. Get two bodies in motion (or more, for that matter) and things happen.

Oddly enough, it's not normally the new guys who get hurt. It's normally the more experienced guys, who tend to push limits a bit more. Or, it's the more experienced guys, trying to protect the new guys - trying to catch a guy who's falling wrong can do bad things to backs, shoulders, etc.

Still, the benefits outweigh the negatives, at least in my view.

[redstategunnut]

MLeake:

Of course stand up matters. My point was only that if a given martial art ignored the ground game altogether, you better find one with some ground fighting in it, too. You are quite right, in a multiple bad guy scenario being on the ground with one of them is a bad place to be, but if you don't have a good ground game you will not be getting back to your feet. One might be taken down even when one did not plan to be on the ground.

I hear you on the age and injuries. I'm 43 and in the last twelve months I have broken my hand and several ribs sparring BJJ. The conditioning, mental and physical, of a true combative martial art cannot be matched by any kind of spin class, kettle bell workout or anything else. Many of the guys I roll with are half my age, but there's a few of us old guys in there, too.

I do not understand guys who strap on a gun and consider themselves prepared for whatever the day throws at them. Sure, the older you get the less one can rely upon grappling or striking, but like you said, we are in our forties and sparring in full contact combatives, so I'm not sure when I'll have to hang up the gi.

[threegun]

JerryM, the odds of one getting attacked in a manner that justifies using non-deadly force are higher than the odds of one getting attacked in a manner that justifies using deadly force.

Yet many on this forum think they should carry a gun, but not learn anything about hand-to-hand.

Seems like weird logic, to me.

Mleake, I'm not suggesting not to learn anything about hand to hand. Instead I'm saying that its use or attempted use puts you at a serious risk of being injured. Better alternatives are available IMO like less than lethals or even a knife basically a force multiplier. Something that will allow me to overcome many of the uncontrollable advantages potentially available to the bad guy.

You have thus far been lucky that your skill level and physicality has been sufficient to prevail in your cases. My fear would be the time it isn't enough. Could an approach that emphasizes avoiding H2H in favor of options that offer higher success probability have prevented the ensuing injuries or death?

Now that my muscles pull while mowing the grass or in one case while changing a stinking magazine in my pistol, I question the use of H2H. Now that the power in my left hook and straight right can no longer be absorbed by my older wrists without pain, I question the use of H2H.

I understand your point about places that you cannot carry and being able to defend yourself anyway. I avoid these places like the plague. I am not afraid of running away or calling police. So for me only in the rarest of rare occasions would I be forced to fight. While I can fight, I understand that having to do so even with training, could result in my serious injury or death. I would much prefer to avoid or escape and then bring a superior control to bear should my efforts to escape fail.

Realistic fight training causes injury as you attest. The ones that don't are garbage. I can't afford to miss work due to a hurt back or busted ankle. Permanent damage even in practice is also possible especially for guys like me (older) trying to get back and going against younger bigger men.

[MLeake]

threegun, you still haven't addressed my point that sometimes you just don't get to choose. Sometimes, things happen, and a person is on you before you even know there's a problem. (And if a mugger has any brains at all, he doesn't telegraph his intent if he can sneak.)

So, while I understand you prefer LTL options such as sprays (and I think those aren't a bad idea), those items still need to be deployed. If you perceive the threat early enough to ready a spray, great. But what if you don't? What if the attack comes from behind, or a flank? Do you practice drawing your spray while physically engaged?

In other words, what, if any, plan do you have in the event you are surprised, and the BG is physically on top of you before you react?

As far as the knife goes, that's not considered LTL, you are now in the deadly force realm once again, so that doesn't really address the force continuum issue.

[threegun]

If they are on you your SA has failed. Now you are forced to fight. Hopefully you have some training and aren't out sized and aren't out skilled and aren't out moved and aren't out whatever you can think of when the bad guy is simply bigger, younger, or better at H2H than you are. Hopefully your training doesn't have you injured before the attack LOL.

This is why I simply don't worry about it anymore.

In other words, what, if any, plan do you have in the event you are surprised, and the BG is physically on top of you before you react?

I'm going to fight until I am unconscious or unable or until I get to a fight ending weapon.

To date I haven't been in such a predicament thanks to a mean Situational Awareness.

[MLeake]

threegun, there is always a chance the other guy will be bigger, badder, and/or better. But the odds of that happening are much higher if one does not train.

[doofus47]

Having done various martial arts, and having a ccl, and having been in a couple street fights back in the day, I've got an opinion, not an expert opinion, just an informed opinion....

If you get into a physical scrape,

1. It's good to have had martial arts experience. There are all types. Nowadays they basically fall into the 2 camps of standup or grappling/ground fighting. There are historical reasons for this too long to get into here. These two are mutually complementary; you need both to be well-rounded. You don't need both, but it helps since you won't always choose the circumstances of your confrontation.

2. Sparring is necessary; lifelike sparring is better. Krav Maga where you can wear pads and go 100%-ish might come closest to the real deal, judo rondori is probably good enough; if you have another style and your dojo has a fight club night, you're fine. If you just spar against a person who uses your school's style, you'd better hope that someone from your dojo is your attacker.

3. Handguns are good to have for personal defense. They're the biggest (and last) hammer you will use to solve a problem after all other tools in the tool box are gone. It's good to know how to use your handgun in all circumstances (again, you won't always choose the scenario; all of us would probably choose to be anywhere else, I'm sure). It's good to have some martial arts and sparring experience to allow you to judge the severity of your confrontation with less prejudice from adrenaline.

4. Mr. Miyagi's advice about avoiding punches is still the best "Don't be there." Fighting in the street is stupid. This holds even if you're the aggrieved party and even if you're an MMA superstar. If I had more 200 yard dash skills, I probably wouldn't have gotten into the scrapes that I did get stuck in.

[baddarryl]

Well I talked to them today. I asked if they emphasized comp or defense. The answer was "defense because some never compete. We teach the spiritual Kata and through that defense is learned". They do fast strike, light contact sparring. Tournaments are full strength with pads and I have seen my kids spar that way. I did ask if they workout hard enough and tough enough to be prepared for actual combat if necessary. The answer was a unanimous "yes". Belts are earned through Kata's and sparring successfully. I asked about the ground stuff and the response was that "we aim for it to never get there, but if it does we teach mostly on escape techniques" as they also brought up the point of when the BG's friends are around. There is weapons training which was explained as extremely useful to disarm an attacker with a weapon etc. No contracts, $40 a month, 3 classes a week. I know for a fact they are not a McDojo. Sounds good to me. Now I just have to organized child care and I am good. Thanks all.

[BlackFeather]

I just want to point out something that really bugs me, "Ground fighting/game".

This is like talking about "gunfighting". This is not something you want to do, it's not quite self defense, and it's more likely to get you hurt by your opponent or his buddies.

The longer you spend in contact with your opponent, the more likely you are to get hurt. Staying on the ground, or going to the ground with your opponent is a poor choice, because you are pursuing your opponent further than you should for "defending" yourself. It's not a game, it's a defensive action.

[TheNocturnus]

MLeake Said:

I think we've covered that different schools have their emphasis in different places, and that the OP should look for a school that teaches what he wants to learn. By the way, if I ever throw a roundhouse kick at your head, it will mean I've already dropped you to your knees; even then, I'd use a knee. I don't like flashy kicks, myself - too much balance and reaction time is sacrificed. They look cool, but for practical purposes, kicks to the groin and knees are much more useful.

I still say that martial arts are just an artform man. You can train and train but you are just dancing. Back to the round-house kick.... ok....lol.

[threegun]

The longer you spend in contact with your opponent, the more likely you are to get hurt.

Well said.

[BlackFeather]

Nocturnus31, a roundhouse kick is not a spinning kick, and it has it's benefits. Maybe your opinion of martial arts is different than ours, but I have put my skills against others before, and come out on top. No, kicks weren't used, no fancy techniques, and certainly no flowery movements. However, I remained balanced, in rhythm with my opponent, and came out on top. I have used disarms, kicks, and even techniques that to you seem pretty(useless) and it's worked.

How you practice it determines it's effectiveness. Our school aways had two catagories, the people who wanted realistic sparring, and those who would prefer to practice their forms for competition and spiritul reasons. Speed, aggression, power, and reaction are all important, and all are practiced. If this is just an art form to you, and nothing else, that's fine.

There are those who can shoot well, and those who shoot well under pressure. But it takes a different method of practice to shoot well under pressure in a life or death situation. Same goes for martial arts.

@Threegun: Thank you.

[TheNocturnus]

BlackFeather said:

Nocturnus31, a roundhouse kick is not a spinning kick, and it has it's benefits. Maybe your opinion of martial arts is different than ours, but I have put my skills against others before, and come out on top. No, kicks weren't used, no fancy techniques, and certainly no flowery movements. However, I remained balanced, in rhythm with my opponent, and came out on top. I have used disarms, kicks, and even techniques that to you seem pretty(useless) and it's worked.

Fair enough man. In my personal life experiences the taekwondo I learned served no use to me in the few fights I have been in. I have had friends that have gotten their butt handed to them and they had been training in Karate for years. Since I learned combat fighting skills (SCARS, if you are familiar with it) from a former navy seal, those techniques served me well the one time I had to use them. Go to www.scars.com for more info if you want to see what I'm talking about.

I'm not trying to start some peeing contest over whether martial arts work or not. I'm just voicing my opinion. If you feel safer knowing ju-jitsu, karate, taekwondo, etc...great. Just do what you feel is best for you. Besides, I carry guns to not have to get hand to hand with any BG... hopefully.

[BlackFeather]

Well psh, of course, Tae Kwan Do is nothing.

I do understand your point, and honestly it's not about feeling safer, it's about learning. I have learned a lot about striking and taking hits, you start to understand how it really affects you, and you learn what you can take, and what should be most avoided, then you learn how to avoid it and counter. I'm sure you understand this. It's not about the art, it's the application.

Fairbairn states in the beginning of his book that he takes methods learned from Jiu-Jiutsu and Chinese Boxing. Krav Magas founder was taught during the same era, in Britain, by someone from the same arts that Fairbairn taught. Just thought I'd mention it.

[threegun]

threegun, there is always a chance the other guy will be bigger, badder, and/or better. But the odds of that happening are much higher if one does not train.

True.

[Rifleman1776]

There are three old MMA shows that are rerun on TV from time to time. In one, a variety of martial 'artists' from different styles attack an MMA fighter. One at a time he just waits for them to do their movie style chop-stick shenanigans then he hits them and they go down for the count.
In another, the great BJJ fighter, Royce Gracie takes on a similar bunch of martial 'artists'. One at a time, of course. He simply grabs a body part and twists it until it practicaly comes off and they submit.
That said, the great MMA fighter, Matt Hughes, had no trouble at all defeating Royce Gracie. Hughes is a master at a "mix" of fighting styles and used whatever was necessary to defeat Gracie. I think it was Gracie's only loss in something like 450 fights.
For myself, at age 72, I first avoid situations where I might have to physically fight. But, I have taken Karate Do, a self-defense course, and some high school wrestling. I have a sense of balance and throws. I once used a move in defense (about 15 years ago) to stop a guy much bigger than me who was trying to stab a pencil into my eye. I don't know where it came from, some long sleeping memory cell at the back of my brain. But, I thwarted the attack and nearly broke the guys arm off. I didn't know I had it in me or could do that. Instinct and 40 year old training came into play.
Now, even though I don't need it yet, I sometimes will carry what I call my 'New Orleans walking stick'. It is a cane with a 1" hickory shaft and a heavy brass horse hame knob on the end. It would crush a skull. Given one second hesitation I would smash whatever bone is near the skin (shin, skull, etc.) and keep pounding until I could escape safely.
We do what we can with what we have.

[redstategunnut]

Matt Hughes beat Royce Gracie for a couple of reasons. One, he is younger, stronger and had been in constant training at the highest level for longer than Royce, who essentially did the UFC a favor and came out of retirement for the fight.

More importantly, Matt Hughes is a multifaceted fighter. He had more and better techniques to use to overcome Royce Gracie's "old school" BJJ. When Royce Gracie was a young man and he came to America to prove what Gracie Jiu Jitsu was, he revolutionized the sport of MMA by beating everyone who was, at the time, a one dimensional fighter from one brand of fighting or another. As often happens to revolutionaries, Gracie clung to the original ideas and did not embrace the changes that he begat. MMA assimilated BJJ and refined it. The Gracies, by and large, have maintained a rigorous and less than fully innovative approach to their brand. What they teach still works, but it is incomplete in the modern world of MMA and H2H combat.

Which brings this whole discussion completely full circle doesn't it? We don't get to know in advance which technique that we will need to meet the challenge of the day. Those eschewing hand to hand combat training, or denying the value of ground fighting, or claiming that "I've got a gun, that's all I'll need" or "my kung fu beats your kung fu" have completely ignored the reality that is found in the Gracie/Highes crucible. If you cannot do many things well, that rat bastard Murphy will pick exactly the skill set you ignored and expose your weakness.

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm off to clean my guns from yesterday's range session before I roll BJJ for a couple of hours tonight.

[JerryM]

And I am going to stay away from risky places. I had rather watch a good nature movie than fight. Also, I have never taken any martial arts, but have never needed it.
Never needed a gun either, but do carry most of the time.
Jerry

[baddarryl]

For what it is worth, I'll be attending my first session tonight.

[pax]

This one was barely on topic to begin with, and seems to be done.

Thanks for not turning it into "my sensei can beat up your sensei."

pax