44/45 Magnum VS. 45-70 Do_All-Levergun

[stalkingbear]

I don't see what would be wrong with a Savage model 99 chambered in .358 win or a Browning BLR in the same cartridge. Either 1 would be very accurate and powerful at the ranges he's going to be shooting. Besides if you ever do decide to scope it and/or take a longer shot the .358 win would be dandy for the job.

[Edward429451]

Only because it takes the same caliber rounds a 44 Mag would.

Yes but not the same bullets! My understanding is that typical 44 Mag Jacketed bullets are not constructed well enough to hold together and penetrate at the higher velocities of the 444 Marlin.

Hardcast lead boolits solve this hunting problem, but I wouldn't waste my 44 Mag bullets in the 444. In fairness, I have never owned a 444 or shot one so have no direct experience in what I have said. I have heard this from respected 444 owners here and there and so believe it. It makes sense. Handgun bullets have thinner jackets to expand at handgun velocities.

[stalkingbear]

Be aware that quite a lot of the .444s, especially older 1s, were made with "microgroove" rifling". That pretty much rules out cast bullet options if it does indeed have microgroove rifling.

[B.L.E.]

I dunno, a lot of .22's had microgroove rifling and seemed to work just fine with lead .22 lr bullets.
I don't think it's the rifling but the size of the microgroove bores that was the problem.
Sport45 claims that cast bullets have to be sized to .432 to work well in those barrels.
Jacketed bullets are actually copper patched soft lead bullets and it may be they more readily upset to seal a slightly oversized bore.

[wilkup]

With the mention of the 44 Mag taking the same caliber bullet of the 444 Marlin I became curious to see what this caliber is all about, being that I want a lever action that fires a fat bullet and leaves a hole on each side of what I'm shooting at. I realize the magnum rounds won't hold up at the higher velocity the 444 could shoot them at but wouldn't plan to shoot them very quickly. It's more to purchase lighter rounds so I can reload easy plinking rounds without casting my own.
After some searching around, I came upon an older three-part-article Marshall Stanton (Beartooth Bullets) wrote up about the round and the effectiveness it possesses in his Marlin 1895s. It's a long read, but extremely interesting. After reading it, I don't think I'd pass on a good deal in this caliber.
Here's a link to his article:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech...h_notes.htm/17

[Edward429451]

That pretty much rules out cast bullet options if it does indeed have microgroove rifling.

Oh, it does not. To get a microgroove to shoot you just size em fat. We got my buddy's microgroove 30/30 shooting real good with .311s with minimal to no leading.

[GeauxTide]

I voted 44 Mag, but I own a Marlin in 44 and a Win in 45 Colt.

[badlander]

I have both 45-70 and .45 Colt Marlins. Either one would be A good all round gun. The 45 can be loaded up to the lower 45-70 power with 300+grain bullets. will handel most game you are likely to encounter. If the big bears are A concern 45-70 is the one for you.

[wilkup]

We have big blacks(600lbs?) but nothing like the great bears up north, at least that I'm aware of...

I've started reading about the 444 Marlin and have added it to the list. I think at this point it's going to come down to whichever I can get the better deal on - 444M or 45-70.

[SteelChickenShooter]

To me deer, elk, black bear = Marlin 45-70
I have both the 44Mag and the 45-70 rifles.
The 44Mag is dialed in for carry in the woods where I have under 100 yard shots. The 45-70 is carried if I opt to go in a different direction where 200 yard shots across an open field are likely.
I'm no bear or elk hunter, but it seems to me those animals are a little big and tough for my little potent 44Mag. I'd use the 45-70 instead.

[Sport45]

You can also look at the 450 Marlin if you reload and don't mind straying off the beaten path.

[Deja vu]

I like the 357 magnum and the 45/70.

When I "Harvest" deer from my back porch I use the 357 because it is easier and less expensive to shoot and has taken more deer for me than any other round.

When I have to go and "hunt" I take the 45/70 because there are a few Grizzly bears here not to mention quite a few Black bears lots of wolves. I have never had any trouble with them but why take the chance.

[tulsamal]

Just to throw in a couple of different choices...

Paco tested a Legacy in .454 a few years back. He found the rifle could handle high pressure loads. If you are willing to search for the right vintage, it's an option.

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm

Then in 2007 Jeff wrote a review on a stainless version in .480. I own a .480 Alaskan so I would be highly tempted if I ever saw one of these when I had gun money in my hand. Jeff certainly had good results in his tests. Every time I read this review I want to buy one all over again!

http://www.gunblast.com/Puma480.htm

Gregg

[2500ak]

I remember Rossi used to make an M92 in .454. They had problems with the forend cracking so they discontinued them. I think it probably had more to do with the cheap wood they use for their furniture.

I really wanted one of those when I first started looking into lever actions. With the Casull round you've got almost as much power as a 45-70, in a light weight rifle, that holds a lot more rounds than the 45-70. You also have the ability to fire the 45 colt for target practice, and .454 for hunting (although it had to be loaded down the magazine with the mag spring tube removed, which was uniquely removable on the .454 model), kind of like loading a Marlin 60, or one of some of the Henry lever actions. The ammo is also lighter, less bulky, and you can take more of it with you.

But they stopped making them, that's why I compromised and got the .44 and the 45-70.

[WIN1886]

Most my range shooting is done with bulk ordered hardcast bullets that are handloaded to mild levels that can still knock down a deer quite handily yet are easy on the shoulder ! Have you seen the price of factory 45-70 ammo lately....is the price of lead really that high ? I may have to resort to getting a 223 so I can afford to shoot as much as I like !

[Big Shrek]

Several posters mentioned the Marlin Micro-groove and issues with cast bullets, there are several good writeups at Marlin Owners
which cover the issue in great detail and give the method for resolving it...Fat Boolits are indeed the method...wider is better
Also a little powder moderation can be helpful, for when one matches the bullet to the load to the barrel, you get better precision anyway

[badlander]

One of the reasons I went to the .45 colt is lazyness. With my Dillon loader I can load hundreds of .45 colt in an hour. I don't get that speed with rifle rounds. So I don't mind burning up ammo. It is A concideration. those hot .45 Colt loads are nothing to sneeze at!

[wilkup]

To get the higher velocities out of a .45 Colt it looks like you need to load it to pretty high pressures, which I believe the 92 can take after reading through Paco Kelly's article - http://www.leverguns.com/articles/pa...ltlevergun.htm, but the 45-70 seems to do it with a lot less pressure and can handle much larger bullets if I ever want to go after something really big.
The other consideration is that that the 30-30 and 35 Remington have power similar to the big pistol magnums, at least for the distances being looking at, maybe a little bit more...? Now, with that knowledge and turnign this around, if the 35 Remington is considered more than adequate for elk and black bear, it stands to reason that the 44 Mag and 45 Colt would have the desired power out of a rifle.
Sorry for that curve ball at the end, I just realized it and thought I'd throw it out there to see what everyone thought.
Thanks. Everyone's help and thoughts have been very appreciated =)

[rickyjames]

ok, you want a lever gun. you posted some good calibers. you also neglected possibly the best caliber for the game you mention and also some of the least expensive and most available over the counter ammo you will find. the good old 30/30.
i have a marlin 45/70, winchester 44 mag and 45 lc, and a winchester 30/30. for hunting i would reach for the 30/30 or the 45/70 without question. odds are you will always find 30/30 ammo on the shelf.

[wilkup]

More formulas and paper ballistics to throw out at everyone. I ran the numbers on Taylor Knock Out and Thornily Relative Stopping Power just to see where everything stacked up. I was intrigued to find the 30-30 and 35 Rem stacked so much lower and would attribute that mainly to the mass the other rounds are carrying.
Could someone let me know if there's any sort of scale Taylor's formula can be compared to just to obtain some more insight on the information there?
I went to Buffalo Bore's site to get the information for a comparisons I've listed below for everyone to look through. I think we can all agree Mr Sundles is pretty straightforward with claimed ballistics and doesn't embellish as other companies are known to do. In my experience they usually give a little bit better velocity than he advertises.

Heavy 30-30 190 grain JFN
2100fps/1860ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 18
TRSP - 90
1768fps/1319ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 15
TRSP - 76
Heavy 35 Remington 220 grain JFN
2200fps/2363ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 25
TRSP - 118
1835fps/1645ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 21
TRSP - 98
Heavy 44 Magnum +P 305 grain LBT LFN
1780fps/~2000ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 33
TRSP - 147
~1281fps/~1112ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 24
TRSP - 106
Heavy 45 Colt +P 325 grain LBT LFN
~1780fps/~2150ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 37
TRSP - 161
~1300fps/~1200ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 27
TRSP - 118
Heavy 444 Marlin 335 grain LFNGC
2000fps/2974ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 41
TRSP - 181
1552fps/1793ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 32
TRSP - 141
45-70 Magnum 430 grain LBT LFN
1900fps/3446ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 53
TRSP - 229
1461fps/2039ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 41
TRSP - 176

-Thornily Relative Stopping Power Scale-
45 Antelope
50 Deer
100 Black Bear (<500lbs)
120 Elk, Moose, Kudu, Zebra, Large African Safari Plains Game
150 Lion, Leopard, Grizzly Bear, Brown Bear
250 Hippopotamus, Rhinoceros, Cape Buffalo, Elephant

[Noreaster]

I've owned pistol caliber carbines and they are fun rifles, but the 45/70 is so much easier and well rounded. The .444 Marlin is a nice round but if your ever low on ammo you probably can't run to the store and buy a box, at least not a local store. My vote goes to the 45/70. I love my Contender.

[wilkup]

The cost for loading and plinking with the 45 colt keeps drawing me back to it... along with all the other pros in the Rossi's favor:

2500ak
1)Extremely light (I have revolvers heavier than this thing)
2)Short lever stroke
3)More rounds in the tube
4)Cheaper factory ammo
5)Costs less
6)Stock has good LOP
7)Decent factory trigger break (imo)
8)Better balance

[Mayor Al]

While I would agree that the 45/70 and the 444 Marlin will do the job better than a 44 magnum or 45 'Long' Colt, I am faced with the limitations of the State of Indiana as to what calibers/rounds can be used for hunting . I picked 44 Magnum as it IS legal for deer and other 4 legged critters in the Hoosier State. The longer rifle rounds are not. So I sold my 444 Marlin, my 35 Remington, and even my 30-30...and it broke my heart , but I sold my Winchecter Model 88 .308 also.

No lever guns left here. I use a Ruger semi-auto Carbine for the 44 mag. shooting.

[mehavey]

of the State of Indiana as to what calibers/rounds can be used for hunting . I picked 44 Magnum as it IS legal
for deer and other 4 legged critters in the Hoosier State. The longer rifle rounds are not.

I'd NEVER heard of a cartridge "length" rule before -- ever.
But here it is:

> The maximum rifle cartridge case length is extended to 1.8 inches, making
> the .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf legal to use
> during the deer firearms season.
http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/...-rule-changes/

Oh Lord, protect me from the increasing number of know-not Philistines

[B.L.E.]

I'd NEVER heard of a cartridge "length" rule before -- ever.
But here it is:

> The maximum rifle cartridge case length is extended to 1.8 inches, making
> the .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf legal to use
> during the deer firearms season.

Sounds to me like the intent of the rule is to limit hunters to bona fide "pistol caliber" cartridges. Of course, since just about every rifle cartridge including the .600 Nitro Express has had a pistol built for it, "pistol cartridge" needed to be defined.
It kind of makes sense in a densely populated and wooded area state. At least they aren't limiting you to shotguns.