HD:Short shucking pump or FTF/FTE semi-auto?

checkmyswag · December 4, 2011, 12:01 AM

Which one of these is more likely to occur give all other similar circumstances (load, training, brand, shooter)?

Looking for an HD shotgun, was looking at Remington 870P until I saw the Mossberg 930 SPX and it got me thinking about autos.

the rifleer · December 4, 2011, 12:03 AM

I think that in an hd situation you would probably be overly forceful when racking the shotgun, so i don't thing thats likely. Of course, I've never been in that situation so i don't actually know.

jmr40 · December 4, 2011, 06:14 AM

Pumps are more reliable in theory, but in reality the auto will be more reliable. The pumps have 2 advantages. They are cheaper, and will cycle some very light loads that a semi won't. Buy a good auto, feed it decent ammo and it will be more reliable then the pump.

It's not that the pumps are unreliable, just that the people shooting them will mess up far more often then the auto's will malfunction in stressful situations.

TheKlawMan · December 4, 2011, 01:28 PM

You may also want to consider which type of sg is easier to clear, should you have a problem. Pump or semi?

FrankenMauser · December 4, 2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

It's not that the pumps are unreliable, just that the people shooting them will mess up far more often then the auto's will malfunction in stressful situations.

But who is to say, that it won't be the operator causing the auto to malfunction?

You can't blame the pump for being susceptible to idiot operators, if you aren't going to acknowledge the same issue for autos. Improper grip, obstructing the bolt, blocking ejection... just a few things that can instantly turn the auto into a paperweight.

oneounceload · December 4, 2011, 03:11 PM

Pump will be more likely, only because it requires more interface with the human operator - a semi is pull the trigger - with factory ammo, it should not have a FTF or FTE, whereas the human, under stress, would be more likely to short stroke the pump causing issues

YMMV

jmr40 · December 4, 2011, 07:48 PM

Quote:

You can't blame the pump for being susceptible to idiot operators, if you aren't going to acknowledge the same issue for autos. Improper grip, obstructing the bolt, blocking ejection... just a few things that can instantly turn the auto into a paperweight.

Big difference between what CAN happen and what actually DOES happen. The auto WILL be more reliable.

checkmyswag · December 4, 2011, 09:45 PM

This is really a tough question, a lot of other debates for ME are easier to settle.

I like the idea of pump-action for me as I consider myself somewhat experienced and knowing that if I do my part, the gun will do it's part.

I like the idea of auto for others in my house who may need to use the gun as it requires less operation. BUT, if it is not correctly positioned against the shoulder, then it may malfunction.

Think the best of both worlds may be a pump action with a recoil reducing stock and some training for those who may need to use it.

oneounceload · December 4, 2011, 09:53 PM

Quote:

BUT, if it is not correctly positioned against the shoulder, then it may malfunction.

Think the best of both worlds may be a pump action with a recoil reducing choke and some training for those who may need to use it.

HUH?

If the semi is not all the way into the shoulder, it will still shoot.

And what is a recoil-reducing choke?

checkmyswag · December 4, 2011, 10:43 PM

Ugh, recoil reducing stock, not choke. My fault.

Regarding auto cycling...if not held properly...does it not potential fail to cycle like a limp wristed pistol?

mathman · December 4, 2011, 11:10 PM

jmr40 is absolutely correct. The auto WILL be more reliable for more people. Training can help a lot, but most people can't train for the fear factor involved in a situation where a firearm is used to defend their life. This is where short shucking can occur and is why the auto will be more reliable for more people. (I am, of course, talking about a high quality auto with high quality ammunition.)

jason_iowa · December 4, 2011, 11:26 PM

Something I factor in is the ability to use the weapon one handed. Its a lot easier to operate an auto one handed then a pump

bejay · December 5, 2011, 09:07 AM

some inertia operated autos will need to be shouldered but most are probably going to be gas operated.
wouldnt think the pump would fail if the user was familiar with it and shot it alot also think pumps are probably eaisier to load.

oneounceload · December 5, 2011, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Regarding auto cycling...if not held properly...does it not potential fail to cycle like a limp wristed pistol?

The only way to not hold it properly would be to hold it so loosely, firing it knocks it out of your hand - and it would still fire. SA shotguns do not operate like SA pistols where limp wristing can be an issue - at least not any of those I have owned, shot, or seen being shot

TheKlawMan · December 5, 2011, 02:52 PM

Also are you talking about what is more reliable in the field or in the shelter of a house? I may be wrong, but think a pump would be ore reliable in wet, dirty, perhaps freezing conditions.

Flapjack23 · December 5, 2011, 04:02 PM

Dont forget the intimidation factor...racking the slide before that bad guy walks up the stairs will most likely send him out the door quickly. You wont have to worry which platform is more reliable.

hardworker · December 5, 2011, 04:19 PM

I've seen more problems with people short shucking a pump than jams with modern auto's.

oneounceload · December 5, 2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Dont forget the intimidation factor...racking the slide before that bad guy walks up the stairs will most likely send him out the door quickly

Only in Hollywood; besides, then it gives your position away - in either case, not something to rely on

Livestrong · December 18, 2011, 04:36 AM

I’ve had more malfunctions with a pump than I’ve had with my auto. That’s only because of the guy behind the gun. I’m just more comfortable with my auto, have more confidence with my auto and more importantly I’ve had 0 malfunctions with my auto.

Rugerismisticness · December 18, 2011, 09:04 AM

Pumps Rattle, the forarms are loud as hell. I would only take a Semi auto, or better yet pistol. Pistols are better HD/SD weapons circularly.

shortwave · December 18, 2011, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Pump will be more likely, only because it requires more interface with the human operator...

^^^+1^^^

Quote:

Pistols are better HD/SD weapons circularly

Although it would be another debate as it's not part of the OP's thread, Don't know that I totally agree with that statement.

oldguy870 · December 18, 2011, 12:11 PM

I have had a lot of time behind both pumps and semi shotguns.

I have to agree. The user is the weak link with a pump. Under stress, even the Magpul guys can screw up cycling their weapon. I saw this on tape once.

However, I choose the 870 as my home defense weapon for two reasons:

1. With either platform, malfunctions will be rare for a trained user.

2. A pump shortcycle is easier to fix in a fighting situation over a semiauto malfunction. When a good semi malfunctions (rare), the gun is out of action longer.

checkmyswag · December 18, 2011, 04:09 PM

Decided on the pump due to it not being ammo sensitive. Looking at shooting a vast variety of loads including light and reduced recoil loads and pumps don't care what they are cycling unlike autos.

December 4, 2011, 12:01 AM	#1
checkmyswag Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 1,328	HD:Short shucking pump or FTF/FTE semi-auto? Which one of these is more likely to occur give all other similar circumstances (load, training, brand, shooter)? Looking for an HD shotgun, was looking at Remington 870P until I saw the Mossberg 930 SPX and it got me thinking about autos.

December 4, 2011, 12:03 AM	#2
the rifleer Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2008 Location: Sunny California Posts: 1,281	I think that in an hd situation you would probably be overly forceful when racking the shotgun, so i don't thing thats likely. Of course, I've never been in that situation so i don't actually know. __________________ There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.

December 4, 2011, 09:45 PM	#8
checkmyswag Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 1,328	This is really a tough question, a lot of other debates for ME are easier to settle. I like the idea of pump-action for me as I consider myself somewhat experienced and knowing that if I do my part, the gun will do it's part. I like the idea of auto for others in my house who may need to use the gun as it requires less operation. BUT, if it is not correctly positioned against the shoulder, then it may malfunction. Think the best of both worlds may be a pump action with a recoil reducing stock and some training for those who may need to use it. Last edited by checkmyswag; December 4, 2011 at 10:42 PM. Reason: recoil reducing STOCK, not choke

December 4, 2011, 11:10 PM	#11
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	jmr40 is absolutely correct. The auto WILL be more reliable for more people. Training can help a lot, but most people can't train for the fear factor involved in a situation where a firearm is used to defend their life. This is where short shucking can occur and is why the auto will be more reliable for more people. (I am, of course, talking about a high quality auto with high quality ammunition.) __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

December 18, 2011, 04:36 AM	#19
Livestrong Junior Member Join Date: September 27, 2009 Location: Erie, PA Posts: 4	I’ve had more malfunctions with a pump than I’ve had with my auto. That’s only because of the guy behind the gun. I’m just more comfortable with my auto, have more confidence with my auto and more importantly I’ve had 0 malfunctions with my auto. __________________ Frank Mossberg 930 SPX, Remington 870, Winchester SXP Defender

December 4, 2011, 06:14 AM	#3
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,803	Pumps are more reliable in theory, but in reality the auto will be more reliable. The pumps have 2 advantages. They are cheaper, and will cycle some very light loads that a semi won't. Buy a good auto, feed it decent ammo and it will be more reliable then the pump. It's not that the pumps are unreliable, just that the people shooting them will mess up far more often then the auto's will malfunction in stressful situations.

December 4, 2011, 01:28 PM	#4
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	You may also want to consider which type of sg is easier to clear, should you have a problem. Pump or semi?

December 4, 2011, 03:11 PM	#6
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Pump will be more likely, only because it requires more interface with the human operator - a semi is pull the trigger - with factory ammo, it should not have a FTF or FTE, whereas the human, under stress, would be more likely to short stroke the pump causing issues YMMV

December 4, 2011, 10:43 PM	#10
checkmyswag Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 1,328	Ugh, recoil reducing stock, not choke. My fault. Regarding auto cycling...if not held properly...does it not potential fail to cycle like a limp wristed pistol?

December 4, 2011, 11:26 PM	#12
jason_iowa Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 686	Something I factor in is the ability to use the weapon one handed. Its a lot easier to operate an auto one handed then a pump

December 5, 2011, 09:07 AM	#13
bejay Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2008 Posts: 195	some inertia operated autos will need to be shouldered but most are probably going to be gas operated. wouldnt think the pump would fail if the user was familiar with it and shot it alot also think pumps are probably eaisier to load.

December 5, 2011, 02:52 PM	#15
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Also are you talking about what is more reliable in the field or in the shelter of a house? I may be wrong, but think a pump would be ore reliable in wet, dirty, perhaps freezing conditions.

December 5, 2011, 04:02 PM	#16
Flapjack23 Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Location: Yale MI Posts: 163	Dont forget the intimidation factor...racking the slide before that bad guy walks up the stairs will most likely send him out the door quickly. You wont have to worry which platform is more reliable.

December 5, 2011, 04:19 PM	#17
hardworker Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2010 Posts: 820	I've seen more problems with people short shucking a pump than jams with modern auto's.

December 18, 2011, 09:04 AM	#20
Rugerismisticness Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2010 Posts: 909	Pumps Rattle, the forarms are loud as hell. I would only take a Semi auto, or better yet pistol. Pistols are better HD/SD weapons circularly.

December 18, 2011, 12:11 PM	#22
oldguy870 Member Join Date: June 1, 2011 Posts: 34	I have had a lot of time behind both pumps and semi shotguns. I have to agree. The user is the weak link with a pump. Under stress, even the Magpul guys can screw up cycling their weapon. I saw this on tape once. However, I choose the 870 as my home defense weapon for two reasons: 1. With either platform, malfunctions will be rare for a trained user. 2. A pump shortcycle is easier to fix in a fighting situation over a semiauto malfunction. When a good semi malfunctions (rare), the gun is out of action longer.

December 18, 2011, 04:09 PM	#23
checkmyswag Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 1,328	Decided on the pump due to it not being ammo sensitive. Looking at shooting a vast variety of loads including light and reduced recoil loads and pumps don't care what they are cycling unlike autos. __________________ No brass. No ammo.

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