A "Clone" 870?

ReserveCop · March 28, 2001, 12:21 AM

I saw an ad in a LE publication for something called a "Royal-Hawk Pump Tactical Shotgun."

They say this shotgun is a "clone" of the 870.

Has anyone heard of this shotgun and what do you think of it?

Thanks for your opinions.

Dave McC · March 28, 2001, 07:27 AM

Since 870s are both plentiful and inexpensive, this kinda begs the point, huh?

ChiCom clones of various US weapons do not pay copyrights, are made by slave labor from what may be substandard materials in what remains the largest dictatorship left on Earth, and parts do NOT interchange, which can mean problems if the international scene changes.

Buy US....

ReserveCop · March 28, 2001, 04:47 PM

I agree...the only reason I brought this topic up was that I never heard of such a thing as an 870 "clone" and I can't believe they would place an ad in a LE publication.

Thanks for your opinions.

Bruegger · March 28, 2001, 05:34 PM

I don't know a darn thing about the quality of Chinese knockoff guns, but I know it isn't true that "ChiCom clones of various US weapons do not pay copyrights."

At least if what you mean is they are knocking off guns that still have U.S. patent protection without getting a license from the patent owner. U.S. Customs would not allow them to be imported if this was the case. Remington (or whomever) would just make a couple of calls and shut them down.

If the patents are expired, then anyone, U.S. or foreign manufacturer, can make a clone and there's nothing the inventor can do about it. Patents only give you a monopoly for a certain number of years (I think it's 17 years).

Badger Arms · March 28, 2001, 09:13 PM

The 870 patents have all expired. The Chinese make a copy that seems to be fairly well assembled. I bought one to sell at a gun show. It is not interchangeable as they cut some corners bowing to economy of production. You might get the furniture to interchange but I doubt the parts will. They also make a copy of the Ithaca 37 which is, itself, a copy of the Remington 17 designed by Pederson and Browning.

As far as "Slave Labor," I doubt you could call anything made so well 'slave' labor. The fact that the economic system differs drastically from our own and the Chinese citizen lacks virtually all of our civil liberties does not make the whole populace slaves. I just put Chinese Brake Rotors on my Japanese car. I'm pretty sure the pads were made in Taiwan. I would not want to live anywhere near Japan and their Socialist government. This does not mean that I won't buy anything from Japan though.

As a Matter of interest, I do believe that all arms factories are Military Run. This means that their soldiers, not slaves are making the arms. It's a far cry from our system, for sure, but it's a viable system for them.

Dave McC · March 29, 2001, 04:34 AM

About 5,000 people were killed in and following the showdown at Tienamen Square, thousands more are still getting "Re-Educated".

Women that have more than the one child permitted are forced to have abortions,and in some cases sterilized.

Few Chinese are permitted to leave China,attempting to do so w/o permission is heavy prison time.

K80Geoff · March 29, 2001, 03:47 PM

Support the Army we will eventually have to fight! Why not? After all we did sell scrap metal to the Japanese before WW2 and we got it back, didn't we?

The Chinese government and Chinese Army are not our friends. The Chinese people I have much sympathy for, but we do not need to flood the country with cheap chicom guns.

OK so I'm a Fat Old Conservative, ex Veteran white guy who doesn't like the Chicoms, and damn proud of it!

Buy the remington, keep the Remington employees working, we may need them soon.

Geoff Ross

cuerno de chivo · March 30, 2001, 11:13 PM

buy it. hell, it's probably better. no pc locking safety. i've heard more complaints on the 870 expresses than the norincos.

all the cool 'weapon' toys at wally world are made in china. my nephew got a cool martial art set recently with a plastic and rubber butterfly knife. i never see any made in the usa ones.

remington is not exactly a rkba darling by supporting the gun control act of 1968, not marketing or providing information about their "LE" products to civillians, putting non-removable, built-in gun locks on their civillian bolt rifles, and putting the fortunately removable, locking safety on civillian 870s.

the only thing the chinese do is sell us guns. generally of very good value while considering price and quality.

Badger Arms · March 31, 2001, 12:21 AM

Dave, get your facts straight. I'm not going to get into a discussion like this on a Shotgun forum so I'll leave this post and let you have the last word. Women are allowed to have more than one baby and are NOT forced to have an abortion. The penalty for having more than one child is NOT sterilization or forced abortion. They are simply not allowed to work anymore. 5,000 people killed for political beliefs? Our government kills women and children in Waco and Ruby Ridge, does that mean you won't buy from Remington? Didn't Horiuchi use a Remington?

And as far as governments go, I think we've done our share of genocide. Slavery, Native American Genocide, Legalized and government funded abortions, Area-bombing cities. Vaporizing Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

As far as slavery goes. In China, all work is for the 'common good' as they put it. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. In the US, we work and pay the government about half of what we make in one way or another. There are income taxes, sales taxes, taxes on labor, taxes on the companies and products they make, imort duties, taxes on the roads that carry the products, etc... ad noseum. In a country where you are forced under penalty of law to devote 50% of your income to the government, how can you say you are free?!

BTW: Don't take this as any apology for the Chinese system. I think the system is wrong and would welcome the violent overthrow of their government. I'd even encourage it. HOWEVER, it's none of MY business. My family is just fine and I couldn't give a F%&# what happens in China, so long as I, my Family, and my Country are safe.

Dave McC · March 31, 2001, 07:59 AM

Briefly, Badger, and then I'm dropping this forever....

First, if the taxes I pay or the conditions I live under get to me, I can leave.Can those Chinese?

Second, Amnesty International reports that around 80,000 Chinese are incarcerated at present for what basically amounts to publicly disagreeing with the govt.

Third, the chances of an armed conflict,US vs China, in our lifetimes approaches certainty. We've already had a couple, done through intermediaries like North Korea, Viet Nam,etc. The Brits had one in Malaysia, the Phillipinos still have a big problem with Marxist groups encouraged and supplied by China. Every 5th person alive right now lives in China, and an aggressive government there is an enormous threat to everyone alive. You might want to check out what's happened in Tibet since the takeover. I believe the closest comparison is Ruanda...

cuerno de chivo · March 31, 2001, 11:32 AM

Amnesty International. Less than zero credibility. They probably ain't too wild about Maryland corrections either.

People in jail because they disagree with the government. That is a crime here too. Probably the majority of folks in prison in the US are in there for disagreements with government.

We might have a war with China, so having more quality, low cost weapons is a bad idea?

March 28, 2001, 09:13 PM	#5
Badger Arms Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2000 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 1,700	True about the Patents: The 870 patents have all expired. The Chinese make a copy that seems to be fairly well assembled. I bought one to sell at a gun show. It is not interchangeable as they cut some corners bowing to economy of production. You might get the furniture to interchange but I doubt the parts will. They also make a copy of the Ithaca 37 which is, itself, a copy of the Remington 17 designed by Pederson and Browning. As far as "Slave Labor," I doubt you could call anything made so well 'slave' labor. The fact that the economic system differs drastically from our own and the Chinese citizen lacks virtually all of our civil liberties does not make the whole populace slaves. I just put Chinese Brake Rotors on my Japanese car. I'm pretty sure the pads were made in Taiwan. I would not want to live anywhere near Japan and their Socialist government. This does not mean that I won't buy anything from Japan though. As a Matter of interest, I do believe that all arms factories are Military Run. This means that their soldiers, not slaves are making the arms. It's a far cry from our system, for sure, but it's a viable system for them.

March 29, 2001, 03:47 PM	#7
K80Geoff Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 1998 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 3,639	Support the Army we will eventually have to fight! Why not? After all we did sell scrap metal to the Japanese before WW2 and we got it back, didn't we? The Chinese government and Chinese Army are not our friends. The Chinese people I have much sympathy for, but we do not need to flood the country with cheap chicom guns. OK so I'm a Fat Old Conservative, ex Veteran white guy who doesn't like the Chicoms, and damn proud of it! Buy the remington, keep the Remington employees working, we may need them soon. Geoff Ross __________________ I am no longer a member of this forum. Bye!

March 30, 2001, 11:13 PM	#8
cuerno de chivo Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Posts: 919	rant buy it. hell, it's probably better. no pc locking safety. i've heard more complaints on the 870 expresses than the norincos. all the cool 'weapon' toys at wally world are made in china. my nephew got a cool martial art set recently with a plastic and rubber butterfly knife. i never see any made in the usa ones. remington is not exactly a rkba darling by supporting the gun control act of 1968, not marketing or providing information about their "LE" products to civillians, putting non-removable, built-in gun locks on their civillian bolt rifles, and putting the fortunately removable, locking safety on civillian 870s. the only thing the chinese do is sell us guns. generally of very good value while considering price and quality.

March 28, 2001, 12:21 AM	#1
ReserveCop Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 364	I saw an ad in a LE publication for something called a "Royal-Hawk Pump Tactical Shotgun." They say this shotgun is a "clone" of the 870. Has anyone heard of this shotgun and what do you think of it? Thanks for your opinions.

March 28, 2001, 07:27 AM	#2
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Since 870s are both plentiful and inexpensive, this kinda begs the point, huh? ChiCom clones of various US weapons do not pay copyrights, are made by slave labor from what may be substandard materials in what remains the largest dictatorship left on Earth, and parts do NOT interchange, which can mean problems if the international scene changes. Buy US....

March 28, 2001, 04:47 PM	#3
ReserveCop Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 364	I agree...the only reason I brought this topic up was that I never heard of such a thing as an 870 "clone" and I can't believe they would place an ad in a LE publication. Thanks for your opinions.

March 28, 2001, 05:34 PM	#4
Bruegger Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 1999 Location: Indiana Posts: 637	I don't know a darn thing about the quality of Chinese knockoff guns, but I know it isn't true that "ChiCom clones of various US weapons do not pay copyrights." At least if what you mean is they are knocking off guns that still have U.S. patent protection without getting a license from the patent owner. U.S. Customs would not allow them to be imported if this was the case. Remington (or whomever) would just make a couple of calls and shut them down. If the patents are expired, then anyone, U.S. or foreign manufacturer, can make a clone and there's nothing the inventor can do about it. Patents only give you a monopoly for a certain number of years (I think it's 17 years).

March 29, 2001, 04:34 AM	#6
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	About 5,000 people were killed in and following the showdown at Tienamen Square, thousands more are still getting "Re-Educated". Women that have more than the one child permitted are forced to have abortions,and in some cases sterilized. Few Chinese are permitted to leave China,attempting to do so w/o permission is heavy prison time.

March 31, 2001, 12:21 AM	#9
Badger Arms Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2000 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 1,700	Dave, get your facts straight. I'm not going to get into a discussion like this on a Shotgun forum so I'll leave this post and let you have the last word. Women are allowed to have more than one baby and are NOT forced to have an abortion. The penalty for having more than one child is NOT sterilization or forced abortion. They are simply not allowed to work anymore. 5,000 people killed for political beliefs? Our government kills women and children in Waco and Ruby Ridge, does that mean you won't buy from Remington? Didn't Horiuchi use a Remington? And as far as governments go, I think we've done our share of genocide. Slavery, Native American Genocide, Legalized and government funded abortions, Area-bombing cities. Vaporizing Nagasaki and Hiroshima. As far as slavery goes. In China, all work is for the 'common good' as they put it. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. In the US, we work and pay the government about half of what we make in one way or another. There are income taxes, sales taxes, taxes on labor, taxes on the companies and products they make, imort duties, taxes on the roads that carry the products, etc... ad noseum. In a country where you are forced under penalty of law to devote 50% of your income to the government, how can you say you are free?! BTW: Don't take this as any apology for the Chinese system. I think the system is wrong and would welcome the violent overthrow of their government. I'd even encourage it. HOWEVER, it's none of MY business. My family is just fine and I couldn't give a F%&# what happens in China, so long as I, my Family, and my Country are safe.

March 31, 2001, 07:59 AM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Briefly, Badger, and then I'm dropping this forever.... First, if the taxes I pay or the conditions I live under get to me, I can leave.Can those Chinese? Second, Amnesty International reports that around 80,000 Chinese are incarcerated at present for what basically amounts to publicly disagreeing with the govt. Third, the chances of an armed conflict,US vs China, in our lifetimes approaches certainty. We've already had a couple, done through intermediaries like North Korea, Viet Nam,etc. The Brits had one in Malaysia, the Phillipinos still have a big problem with Marxist groups encouraged and supplied by China. Every 5th person alive right now lives in China, and an aggressive government there is an enormous threat to everyone alive. You might want to check out what's happened in Tibet since the takeover. I believe the closest comparison is Ruanda...

March 31, 2001, 11:32 AM	#11
cuerno de chivo Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Posts: 919	Amnesty International. Less than zero credibility. They probably ain't too wild about Maryland corrections either. People in jail because they disagree with the government. That is a crime here too. Probably the majority of folks in prison in the US are in there for disagreements with government. We might have a war with China, so having more quality, low cost weapons is a bad idea?