What kind of hoops would I have to jump through to...

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck · March 21, 2008, 01:37 AM

get a fully automatic weapon?

VUPDblue · March 21, 2008, 07:35 AM

Look at the second post in this thread:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=264851

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck · March 21, 2008, 11:11 AM

Thank you, now where would I go to find out if it is legal or not? Are there any ways I can find the city, county, state codes to abide by?

VUPDblue · March 21, 2008, 11:35 AM

Here ya go!

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=226809

In almost all cases, state law is where you need to look. Not many local governments regulate NFA weapons beyond what the state does.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck · March 21, 2008, 01:01 PM

thanks again, I need to cross the missouri into nebraska now, lol.

douglasschuckert · March 28, 2008, 12:58 PM

1st thing is to identify if a machinegun is legal in your area. 2nd thing is to identify the item you want to purchase. 3. Contact that individual and/or dealer and pay for the item. Then if they are in the same state as you are, skip to THE STEPS below. If in a different state:

1. Find a Class 2 Manufacturer OR Class 3 Dealer in your State and ask him/her/them to send a copy of their FFL and SOT Status to the current owner. The current owner/their dealer will fill out a Form 3/4 and transfer it to your dealer. (If the item is currently on a Form 4, you will have to pay a $200.00 tax from their dealer to yours and then another $200.00 tax from your dealer to you).

THE STEPS:

You can go about it several ways.

1. Startup a Corporation or Limited Liability Company (not recommended as you have to file tax returns every year. After a couple years of filing a 0 return, the IRS will begin to raise eyebrows).

2. Construct a 'Trust'. This is the most viable and more recommended way of doing things. You can go about it by using Quicken Will Maker to form a Simple Trust, but Quicken does not leave room for special circumstances and is not very NFA/Firearm friendly as there are special rules one must adhere to in bequeathing them to heirs. Google 'NFA trust attorney'. It will lead you to some very good attorneys. David Goldman with Wood, Atter, & Associates out of Jacksonville, FL (http://www.woodatter.com) is a GREAT choice. He's EXCEPTIONALLY knowledgeable about NFA (due to the rules of NFA being Federal, State boundaries bear little to the trust’s wording. So you can use David even if you live in TX). A NFA Trust should cost in the neighborhood of $450.00. This is a one time expense, that’s good for life, and you can continue to transfer new acquisitions to the trust as time goes by.

3. Transfer the device to you as an individual. This carries some plus sides, and some very real negatives. The plus is that being you are the transferee on the Form 4, it belongs to you and no other entity. The downside is with this method there are several additional requirements:

a. You will have to have the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (i.e. your Sherriff, Governor, District Attorney, Chief of State Police, a Judge with Powers of Arrest, or in some area’s the County’s Mortician or Medical Examiner) sign two Form 4's certifying he has no knowledge you will do anything illegal with the item in question. This is easier said than done. About 90% of CLEO's will not sign the Form 4's outright refusing to do so.

b. Once you have the CLEO sign-off, you must have 2 pass-port photos made and attached to the duplicate Form 4's.

c. Have the Sherriff’s Department or the Local Police Department make two fingerprint cards. This HAS to be done by a LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.

Finally when all this is complete, you must mail all this off to the NFA Branch along with your transfer tax payment and then the wait begins. The buggar of it is, Individual Form 4's take several weeks longer (by average) to be approved than Entity Form 4's, as they do a VERY INDEBTH background check on you.

This process you will have to repeat EACH AND EVERY time you want to acquire additional NFA items (after all.. 1 AOW or 1 Suppressor is NEVER enough).

Corporate F4's and Trust F4's have an average approval return time of about 30 days. Individual returns have been averaging about 90, God only knows the time required for a First Timer. My first F4 took 3 months. The other 5 have taken less than 30 days and those have been Corporate F4’s at that.

Good Luck my friend. It seems like a PITA, but it really isn’t that difficult!

Bear in mind that you can only own fully automatic weapons made and registered prior to May of 1986. That being said there is a very limited quantity of transferable status machineguns on the market, and depending on make/model of the weapon you’re seeking, you could be looking a prices ranging from $3,000.00 to $4,500.00 for a MAC (series) SMG, to $18,000.00 to $25,000.00 for an H&K MP5, M3 Grease Gun, or Tommy Gun, anywhere between $8,500.00 to $22,000.00 for an M16. Uzi’s, STENS, S&W 76’s, Stemple’s, STENples, ect. typically sell for around $7:$8k, and so on…. The price gaps are dependant on Make/Model/Configuration/Registration type/etc…

Hope this helps!

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck · March 28, 2008, 05:30 PM

hmm maybe i'll just stick with semi autos if those are the prices, lol.

LiquidTension7 · March 28, 2008, 05:45 PM

Yeah they're expensive. The worst part is that once you start collecting stamps it's nearly impossible to stop.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck · March 28, 2008, 05:50 PM

well i guess if I don't buy any, I'll not have to worry, lol. thanks for the input everyone.

hoytinak · March 28, 2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

hmm maybe i'll just stick with semi autos if those are the prices, lol.

So, you have to sale one of your kids and the other has to pay they're own way through college......they're soooo much fun. I'm saving for my second now, trying to find a nice UMP.

douglasschuckert · March 28, 2008, 08:45 PM

Full Auto's are WELL WORTH the expense once you get your first "Entry Level" gun like a MAC-10. It's all down hill from there. The good thing about them is they truly are investments. You can purchase one this year, shoot the ever living piss out of it, and sell it for a profit (damn near regardless of condition) the next year or whenever you need the money. The prices I quoted are just a range. There are deals to be had out there. They will never drop in value (as long as you're a smart shopper) and you will ALWAYS be able to get your money back out of them. The 1986 Ban will never be rescinded... not if the 'liberals' have their say in congress.

You do know a UMP is a post-sample only gun right? Meaning you have to be a C2/C3 SOT w/LEO Demo Letter to purchase. Then if you give up your FFL &/or SOT status, you have to dispose of it before hand. Either by destroying it to ATF Specs. (then showing them proof) or selling it to another dealer.

hoytinak · March 28, 2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

You do know a UMP is a post-sample only gun right? Meaning you have to be a C2/C3 SOT w/LEO Demo Letter to purchase. Then if you give up your FFL &/or SOT status, you have to dispose of it before hand. Either by destroying it to ATF Specs. (then showing them proof) or selling it to another dealer.

I did not know that, I thought it'd be the same as my M16. Guess I'll have to look into something else...maybe a Thompson?

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck · March 28, 2008, 09:45 PM

yeah Idk. Guess I won't get one unless I hit the lotto, lol.

Maser · March 29, 2008, 02:19 AM

Hey LJ-MosinFreak-Buck, this is really just my own personal opinion, but I got to shoot FAs at a very young age and I feel they are over rated. I agree with the poster above though about them being a good investment. If you are really gung-ho on having some FA fun it's far cheaper to just find a range that rents them out to shooters. If you want to cheaply own a FA, then just learn how to bump fire. Sure it's not the same as a true FA, but it's really close to the real thing. Now if you really want to get into NFA toys without shooting a hole (pun intended) in your wallet, then invest in SBRs, SBSs, AOWs, or suppressors. They are FAR cheaper to own than a FA and they don't follow the '86 ban. Meaning that when you get those unlike a FA, you're not getting something made prior to 1986, you're getting something that's fairly new.

Like I said that's just my own personal opinion.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck · March 29, 2008, 10:38 AM

yeah don't blame ya. lol.
Guess I could always wait until WW3 like Red Dawn to get one, lol!!! but no, bump firing can be fun, but it's inaccurate, lol. I like accurate with full auto capability.

douglasschuckert · March 29, 2008, 04:05 PM

Well I need to rehash my previous statement about the UMP being a Post-Sample ONLY gun. You can purchase a UMC (the simi-auto version of the UMP) and have it converted to the UMP's magwell by www.hdps.org, basically making it look 1:1 to the UMP without the full auto capability (its a short barrel rifle after the conversion). It really is too bad that the MP5 registered sears wont work in these... it really really is... If you want a 'factory UMP' its a post sample gun only. Sorry chap.

March 21, 2008, 01:37 AM	#1
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2008 Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa Posts: 568	What kind of hoops would I have to jump through to... get a fully automatic weapon? __________________ The Best Revenge is to Live Happily. K31 / Mosin Nagant M1944 / Turkish M1938 / Sagave M110 / Marlin Model 80 / Stevens Model 77F / Astra A-90 / Glock 22 Gen 4

March 21, 2008, 07:35 AM	#2
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	Look at the second post in this thread: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=264851 __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

March 21, 2008, 11:11 AM	#3
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2008 Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa Posts: 568	Thank you, now where would I go to find out if it is legal or not? Are there any ways I can find the city, county, state codes to abide by? __________________ The Best Revenge is to Live Happily. K31 / Mosin Nagant M1944 / Turkish M1938 / Sagave M110 / Marlin Model 80 / Stevens Model 77F / Astra A-90 / Glock 22 Gen 4

March 21, 2008, 11:35 AM	#4
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	Here ya go! http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=226809 In almost all cases, state law is where you need to look. Not many local governments regulate NFA weapons beyond what the state does. __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

March 21, 2008, 01:01 PM	#5
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2008 Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa Posts: 568	thanks again, I need to cross the missouri into nebraska now, lol. __________________ The Best Revenge is to Live Happily. K31 / Mosin Nagant M1944 / Turkish M1938 / Sagave M110 / Marlin Model 80 / Stevens Model 77F / Astra A-90 / Glock 22 Gen 4

March 28, 2008, 12:58 PM	#6
douglasschuckert Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Location: Pensacola, Florida Posts: 141	The Howto: 1st thing is to identify if a machinegun is legal in your area. 2nd thing is to identify the item you want to purchase. 3. Contact that individual and/or dealer and pay for the item. Then if they are in the same state as you are, skip to THE STEPS below. If in a different state: 1. Find a Class 2 Manufacturer OR Class 3 Dealer in your State and ask him/her/them to send a copy of their FFL and SOT Status to the current owner. The current owner/their dealer will fill out a Form 3/4 and transfer it to your dealer. (If the item is currently on a Form 4, you will have to pay a $200.00 tax from their dealer to yours and then another $200.00 tax from your dealer to you). THE STEPS: You can go about it several ways. 1. Startup a Corporation or Limited Liability Company (not recommended as you have to file tax returns every year. After a couple years of filing a 0 return, the IRS will begin to raise eyebrows). 2. Construct a 'Trust'. This is the most viable and more recommended way of doing things. You can go about it by using Quicken Will Maker to form a Simple Trust, but Quicken does not leave room for special circumstances and is not very NFA/Firearm friendly as there are special rules one must adhere to in bequeathing them to heirs. Google 'NFA trust attorney'. It will lead you to some very good attorneys. David Goldman with Wood, Atter, & Associates out of Jacksonville, FL (http://www.woodatter.com) is a GREAT choice. He's EXCEPTIONALLY knowledgeable about NFA (due to the rules of NFA being Federal, State boundaries bear little to the trust’s wording. So you can use David even if you live in TX). A NFA Trust should cost in the neighborhood of $450.00. This is a one time expense, that’s good for life, and you can continue to transfer new acquisitions to the trust as time goes by. 3. Transfer the device to you as an individual. This carries some plus sides, and some very real negatives. The plus is that being you are the transferee on the Form 4, it belongs to you and no other entity. The downside is with this method there are several additional requirements: a. You will have to have the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (i.e. your Sherriff, Governor, District Attorney, Chief of State Police, a Judge with Powers of Arrest, or in some area’s the County’s Mortician or Medical Examiner) sign two Form 4's certifying he has no knowledge you will do anything illegal with the item in question. This is easier said than done. About 90% of CLEO's will not sign the Form 4's outright refusing to do so. b. Once you have the CLEO sign-off, you must have 2 pass-port photos made and attached to the duplicate Form 4's. c. Have the Sherriff’s Department or the Local Police Department make two fingerprint cards. This HAS to be done by a LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY. Finally when all this is complete, you must mail all this off to the NFA Branch along with your transfer tax payment and then the wait begins. The buggar of it is, Individual Form 4's take several weeks longer (by average) to be approved than Entity Form 4's, as they do a VERY INDEBTH background check on you. This process you will have to repeat EACH AND EVERY time you want to acquire additional NFA items (after all.. 1 AOW or 1 Suppressor is NEVER enough). Corporate F4's and Trust F4's have an average approval return time of about 30 days. Individual returns have been averaging about 90, God only knows the time required for a First Timer. My first F4 took 3 months. The other 5 have taken less than 30 days and those have been Corporate F4’s at that. Good Luck my friend. It seems like a PITA, but it really isn’t that difficult! Bear in mind that you can only own fully automatic weapons made and registered prior to May of 1986. That being said there is a very limited quantity of transferable status machineguns on the market, and depending on make/model of the weapon you’re seeking, you could be looking a prices ranging from $3,000.00 to $4,500.00 for a MAC (series) SMG, to $18,000.00 to $25,000.00 for an H&K MP5, M3 Grease Gun, or Tommy Gun, anywhere between $8,500.00 to $22,000.00 for an M16. Uzi’s, STENS, S&W 76’s, Stemple’s, STENples, ect. typically sell for around $7:$8k, and so on…. The price gaps are dependant on Make/Model/Configuration/Registration type/etc… Hope this helps! __________________ Write your representative and say no to HR 1022!!! (Yet another $%$(&^-up law)! http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!

March 28, 2008, 05:30 PM	#7
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2008 Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa Posts: 568	hmm maybe i'll just stick with semi autos if those are the prices, lol. __________________ The Best Revenge is to Live Happily. K31 / Mosin Nagant M1944 / Turkish M1938 / Sagave M110 / Marlin Model 80 / Stevens Model 77F / Astra A-90 / Glock 22 Gen 4

March 28, 2008, 05:45 PM	#8
LiquidTension7 Member Join Date: December 4, 2002 Location: SC Posts: 54	Yeah they're expensive. The worst part is that once you start collecting stamps it's nearly impossible to stop. __________________ Questions are more true than answers; this is the beginning of wisdom.

March 28, 2008, 05:50 PM	#9
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2008 Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa Posts: 568	well i guess if I don't buy any, I'll not have to worry, lol. thanks for the input everyone. __________________ The Best Revenge is to Live Happily. K31 / Mosin Nagant M1944 / Turkish M1938 / Sagave M110 / Marlin Model 80 / Stevens Model 77F / Astra A-90 / Glock 22 Gen 4

March 28, 2008, 08:45 PM	#11
douglasschuckert Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Location: Pensacola, Florida Posts: 141	Full Auto's are WELL WORTH the expense once you get your first "Entry Level" gun like a MAC-10. It's all down hill from there. The good thing about them is they truly are investments. You can purchase one this year, shoot the ever living piss out of it, and sell it for a profit (damn near regardless of condition) the next year or whenever you need the money. The prices I quoted are just a range. There are deals to be had out there. They will never drop in value (as long as you're a smart shopper) and you will ALWAYS be able to get your money back out of them. The 1986 Ban will never be rescinded... not if the 'liberals' have their say in congress. You do know a UMP is a post-sample only gun right? Meaning you have to be a C2/C3 SOT w/LEO Demo Letter to purchase. Then if you give up your FFL &/or SOT status, you have to dispose of it before hand. Either by destroying it to ATF Specs. (then showing them proof) or selling it to another dealer. __________________ Write your representative and say no to HR 1022!!! (Yet another $%$(&^-up law)! http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!

March 28, 2008, 09:45 PM	#13
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2008 Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa Posts: 568	yeah Idk. Guess I won't get one unless I hit the lotto, lol. __________________ The Best Revenge is to Live Happily. K31 / Mosin Nagant M1944 / Turkish M1938 / Sagave M110 / Marlin Model 80 / Stevens Model 77F / Astra A-90 / Glock 22 Gen 4

March 29, 2008, 02:19 AM	#14
Maser Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Location: Mysterious Cities of Gold Posts: 920	Hey LJ-MosinFreak-Buck, this is really just my own personal opinion, but I got to shoot FAs at a very young age and I feel they are over rated. I agree with the poster above though about them being a good investment. If you are really gung-ho on having some FA fun it's far cheaper to just find a range that rents them out to shooters. If you want to cheaply own a FA, then just learn how to bump fire. Sure it's not the same as a true FA, but it's really close to the real thing. Now if you really want to get into NFA toys without shooting a hole (pun intended) in your wallet, then invest in SBRs, SBSs, AOWs, or suppressors. They are FAR cheaper to own than a FA and they don't follow the '86 ban. Meaning that when you get those unlike a FA, you're not getting something made prior to 1986, you're getting something that's fairly new. Like I said that's just my own personal opinion.

March 29, 2008, 10:38 AM	#15
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2008 Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa Posts: 568	yeah don't blame ya. lol. Guess I could always wait until WW3 like Red Dawn to get one, lol!!! but no, bump firing can be fun, but it's inaccurate, lol. I like accurate with full auto capability. __________________ The Best Revenge is to Live Happily. K31 / Mosin Nagant M1944 / Turkish M1938 / Sagave M110 / Marlin Model 80 / Stevens Model 77F / Astra A-90 / Glock 22 Gen 4

March 29, 2008, 04:05 PM	#16
douglasschuckert Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Location: Pensacola, Florida Posts: 141	The UMP question Well I need to rehash my previous statement about the UMP being a Post-Sample ONLY gun. You can purchase a UMC (the simi-auto version of the UMP) and have it converted to the UMP's magwell by www.hdps.org, basically making it look 1:1 to the UMP without the full auto capability (its a short barrel rifle after the conversion). It really is too bad that the MP5 registered sears wont work in these... it really really is... If you want a 'factory UMP' its a post sample gun only. Sorry chap. __________________ Write your representative and say no to HR 1022!!! (Yet another $%$(&^-up law)! http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!