defending myself or property while at a FRIENDS house...

Erikbal · February 1, 2012, 06:26 PM

Ok I just thought of this and have a question. Suppose I am staying out of town or even in town at a friends house and am sleeping on the couch and someone breaks in the house. Well, if it were my house I would be allowed to use my gun to defend myself and my property against an unwanted perp correct? What about the same situation but at a friends house? Would I be allowed to defend THEIR house and property with my weapon? Or would my friend have to use his own weapon to defend his own home and property? Thanks for any info, by the way I live in NY state if that helps...

Carry_24/7 · February 1, 2012, 06:49 PM

Defend against what? A perp with a weapon or otherwise threatening deadly force, or a perp who's in your buddies house uninvited?

Me, I'd ask those questions first..

highvel · February 1, 2012, 07:40 PM

Asking a question of that type may get responses ranging from shoot to kill immediately, all the way to run as fast as you can.
I would suggest checking the laws of your area and see what kind of case history you can find.
Personally I couldn't tell you exactly what I would do myself until actually being in that moment which, by the way, I hope never happens.

imsobored152 · February 1, 2012, 07:52 PM

Well if your a concealed carrier, i wouldnt think it would matter where you were, as long as its a viable threat to your wellbeing

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using tapatalk

rtpzwms · February 1, 2012, 07:54 PM

Erikbal, first is NY a state that allows deadly force to protect property? I think if you do a little research you'll more then likely be able to refine your question so that the legal beagles here can answer. You might want to start with something like this site. http://billstclair.com/ferran/righttouseforce.html

Good luck...

Doyle · February 1, 2012, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Well if your a concealed carrier, i wouldnt think it would matter where you were, as long as its a viable threat to your wellbeing

Not so true young Padawan. There is a HUGE discrepancy as to what constitutes justifiable deadly force depending on the state you happen to be in at the time.

mikejonestkd · February 1, 2012, 08:06 PM

here's another link:

http://selfdefenses.com/forcespray/SD-law.html

Brian Pfleuger · February 1, 2012, 08:14 PM

New York is pretty clear about where and why you can use physical force and deadly physical force....

New York Penal Code 35.20
§ 35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and
in defense of a person in the course of burglary.
1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he or
she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate
what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted
commission by such other person of a crime involving damage to premises.
Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly
physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for
such purpose, and may use deadly physical force if he or she reasonably
believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or
attempted commission of arson.
2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person
licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force
upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be
necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to
be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a
criminal trespass upon such premises. Such person may use any degree of
physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she
reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly
physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or
attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in
the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in
subdivision three.
3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other
person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to
prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such
burglary.
4. As used in this section, the following terms have the following
meanings:
(a) The terms "premises," "building" and "dwelling" have the meanings
prescribed in section 140.00;
(b) Persons "licensed or privileged" to be in buildings or upon other
premises include, but are not limited to:
(i) police officers or peace officers acting in the performance of
their duties; and
(ii) security personnel or employees of nuclear powered electric
generating facilities located within the state who are employed as part
of any security plan approved by the federal operating license agencies
acting in the performance of their duties at such generating facilities.
For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "nuclear powered electric
generating facility" shall mean a facility that generates electricity
using nuclear power for sale, directly or indirectly, to the public,
including the land upon which the facility is located and the safety and
security zones as defined under federal regulations.

Of course, penal code is not the same as case law is not the same as the inclinations of your local DA.

Erikbal · February 2, 2012, 06:18 AM

Thanks a lot for that post. So basically you can use deadly force against burglary and arson, if felt needed, is that correct? I'm going to bookmark this page...

**Aguila Blanca** · February 2, 2012, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erikbal

So basically you can use deadly force against burglary and arson, if felt needed, is that correct?

No, not correct.

You left out a VERY important word: "reasonably," Your use of deadly force will be second-guessed by the police and a prosecutor. If you are charged, in court you will be subjected to what is called the "reasonable man test." This is a legal principle. It means the jury will be asked to review your actions and to decide if a hypothetical "reasonable man," in the same situation and knowing the same facts that you knew, would have acted the same way you did.

Brian Pfleuger · February 2, 2012, 08:24 AM

Basically, you better be at the point where you don't believe you have any other choice.
You can't shoot someone for burglary, or even arson, unless you believe there is no other reasonable way to stop them.

Unfortunately, it's even more complicated than that because the actual application of the law is heavily influenced by case law (the outcome/decisions of previous cases) and also by if your particular DA is gun/defense friendly or not. Case law is much harder to track down than the actual penal code.

You could be in one county and be indisputably in line with every law in the state and be charged anyway or in the county next door you might not be charged even for a situation similar to one where the defender did jail time.

SamNavy · February 2, 2012, 10:37 AM

I can't find any specifics pertaining to this in NY, but I'm pretty sure I've read that in certain states, if you are carrying, upon entering a private residence you must inform the homeowner or otherwise get his permission.

I'm just thinking of the lawsuit possibilities here.

You're in a buddies house sleeping on the couch and are confronted by a textbook obvious burglar... ski-mask, leather gloves, flashlight. You rise from the couch, draw, yell, and are advanced on... and you fire and kill him.

Then you find out that your buddy didn't know you carried, and doesn't "believe in violence" or something. Not only are you sued by the family of the burglar, but they get to sue the homeowner as well, and your "buddy" the homeowner sues you too.

I'm reminded of this case, and although is different than the scenario above, highlights possible legal consequences/aftermath of even the most righteous shooting:
http://www.buffalonews.com/city/article313145.ece

Maybe somebody should start a "Do you carry when at a friends house" thread... you know, just heading over to watch the game or something, or for a "dinner party" or whatever?

Brian Pfleuger · February 2, 2012, 10:42 AM

There is no such law in NY.
Even posted "No Guns" signs do not carry force of law. All they can do is ask you to leave.
Besides, why are you friends with such a kook?

hermannr · February 2, 2012, 02:30 PM

NYS and NYC is a strange place when it comes to law. so look at what happened to Bernard Goetz.

He was armed with an unlicensed gin, and shot 4 guys that were trying to rob him. He was in the subway, a public place.

He was changred with 4 counts of assault with a deadly weapon, discharging a firearm on the subway...and having an unlicensed pistol.

Sentence? 3 years for the unlicensed pistol, aquitted on all other charges. There is a case you can look at and quote.

Because of that case, and other things I know about NYS, yes, I do believe that if you were confronted with a burgler, and feared for your life, you could take whatever action you needed to to neutralize that danger to your person, and or the property (as in arson).

If anyone wants to think about it. someone is trying to burn down a building you are in, that constitutes a rather serious threat to your wellbeing...No?

Erikbal · February 2, 2012, 04:07 PM

My friend would know I was armed and most likely would be upstairs in his bedroom with more guns than I have. I would make it a point to tell him/her before I stayed though, but they know me and know I carry, them and my parents and brother are the only ones that know. I wish there was something written in stone about this. Peetzakilla you're saying in NY I DON'T need to inform them I am armed? So even if an armed robber was co ing at me I could get in trouble for shooting? What about just shooting in the leg or something to disable, not shooting to kill? That is messed up...

Brian Pfleuger · February 2, 2012, 04:36 PM

What? No. I'm not sure where you're getting that. There is no duty to inform anyone that you're armed and you are specifically authorized by law to use force in any home that you have permission to be in.
There is no "shoot to wound" or "shoot to kill". A firearm is deadly physical force and can not be used unless deadly force is necessary.

You don't have to tell your friend and if you can articulate a reasonable belief of imminent severe or deadly harm to you or others then you are legally allowed to use lethal force and the homeowners objections after the fact are irrelevant.

5R milspec · February 2, 2012, 05:20 PM

first I do not live in NY but live in SC.for me as a CWP carrier have to have the right to carry in a friends home or yard.with that said I do have the right to carry at my friends home or yard.so if a guy came up and handed out trouble I would ask myself,is this guy in any way handing out really bad trouble or just enough to just call the cops.if so I would take action.my reason for saying this is because dead men don't talk.other than that I would just call the cops.my life or friends is more important than the bad guys if he is in any way handing out bad trouble.but I would make the right call first and not just shoot to shoot.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 2, 2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erikbal

Peetzakilla you're saying in NY I DON'T need to inform them I am armed? So even if an armed robber was co ing at me I could get in trouble for shooting? What about just shooting in the leg or something to disable, not shooting to kill? That is messed up...

With all due respect, "this" is not messed up, YOU are messed up ... because you are making it more complicated than it is. Peetzakilla gave you the full text of the law, and you immediately misconstrued it. Please read it again, carefully.

You MAY use force to resist an assault or a burglary in NY state. To my great surprise, according to what PK cited you can even use deadly force to resist a burglary in NY state. I did NOT expect that.

Now, go back to what I posted above. The law says you may use deadly force:

Quote:

3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.

Note the use of the word "reasonably" -- twice. Yes, you can use deadly force, BUT the circumstances must be such that you "reasonably" have no other recourse.

As to shooting in the leg: Aside from the fact that only works in B-movies, using a firearm is using deadly force, whether you shoot to kill, shoot to wound (good luck with that), or fire a warning shot. In some states (possibly including NY), just showing the gun is legally construed as using deadly force.

So the simple answer to your question is: Yes, you CAN use a gun to protect yourself, but you'd better be sure there's no other way out. I would NOT use a gun in NY just to protect property, only to protect human life.

Mr Dish · February 2, 2012, 09:10 PM

WAIT A MINUTE! I thought New York didn't allow you to protect yourself. Aren't their police supposed to do that for you?

Defending yourself is defending yourself.....no matter where you are. It seems to me that if you are legally allowed to carry in the state you are in then you could justify defending yourself while in your friends home.

Just make sure it is a BG and not just a stranger to you.

February 1, 2012, 06:26 PM	#1
Erikbal Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2012 Location: Olean, NY Posts: 375	defending myself or property while at a FRIENDS house... Ok I just thought of this and have a question. Suppose I am staying out of town or even in town at a friends house and am sleeping on the couch and someone breaks in the house. Well, if it were my house I would be allowed to use my gun to defend myself and my property against an unwanted perp correct? What about the same situation but at a friends house? Would I be allowed to defend THEIR house and property with my weapon? Or would my friend have to use his own weapon to defend his own home and property? Thanks for any info, by the way I live in NY state if that helps... __________________ S&W Bodyguard 380 Ruger SR9C

February 1, 2012, 07:40 PM	#3
highvel Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Location: Powhatan VA Posts: 633	Asking a question of that type may get responses ranging from shoot to kill immediately, all the way to run as fast as you can. I would suggest checking the laws of your area and see what kind of case history you can find. Personally I couldn't tell you exactly what I would do myself until actually being in that moment which, by the way, I hope never happens. __________________ Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.--Mark Twain "I have opinions of my own 'strong opinions' but I don't always agree with them."--George Bush

February 1, 2012, 08:06 PM	#7
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	here's another link: http://selfdefenses.com/forcespray/SD-law.html __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

February 1, 2012, 08:14 PM	#8
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	New York is pretty clear about where and why you can use physical force and deadly physical force.... New York Penal Code 35.20 § 35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary. 1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a crime involving damage to premises. Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly physical force if he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson. 2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a criminal trespass upon such premises. Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in subdivision three. 3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary. 4. As used in this section, the following terms have the following meanings: (a) The terms "premises," "building" and "dwelling" have the meanings prescribed in section 140.00; (b) Persons "licensed or privileged" to be in buildings or upon other premises include, but are not limited to: (i) police officers or peace officers acting in the performance of their duties; and (ii) security personnel or employees of nuclear powered electric generating facilities located within the state who are employed as part of any security plan approved by the federal operating license agencies acting in the performance of their duties at such generating facilities. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "nuclear powered electric generating facility" shall mean a facility that generates electricity using nuclear power for sale, directly or indirectly, to the public, including the land upon which the facility is located and the safety and security zones as defined under federal regulations. Of course, penal code is not the same as case law is not the same as the inclinations of your local DA. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 2, 2012, 06:18 AM	#9
Erikbal Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2012 Location: Olean, NY Posts: 375	Thanks a lot for that post. So basically you can use deadly force against burglary and arson, if felt needed, is that correct? I'm going to bookmark this page... __________________ S&W Bodyguard 380 Ruger SR9C

February 1, 2012, 06:49 PM	#2
Carry_24/7 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Posts: 801	Defend against what? A perp with a weapon or otherwise threatening deadly force, or a perp who's in your buddies house uninvited? Me, I'd ask those questions first..

February 1, 2012, 07:52 PM	#4
imsobored152 Member Join Date: January 16, 2012 Posts: 45	Well if your a concealed carrier, i wouldnt think it would matter where you were, as long as its a viable threat to your wellbeing Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using tapatalk

February 1, 2012, 07:54 PM	#5
rtpzwms Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2010 Location: OTS Posts: 1,035	Erikbal, first is NY a state that allows deadly force to protect property? I think if you do a little research you'll more then likely be able to refine your question so that the legal beagles here can answer. You might want to start with something like this site. http://billstclair.com/ferran/righttouseforce.html Good luck...

February 2, 2012, 08:24 AM	#11
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Basically, you better be at the point where you don't believe you have any other choice. You can't shoot someone for burglary, or even arson, unless you believe there is no other reasonable way to stop them. Unfortunately, it's even more complicated than that because the actual application of the law is heavily influenced by case law (the outcome/decisions of previous cases) and also by if your particular DA is gun/defense friendly or not. Case law is much harder to track down than the actual penal code. You could be in one county and be indisputably in line with every law in the state and be charged anyway or in the county next door you might not be charged even for a situation similar to one where the defender did jail time.

February 2, 2012, 10:37 AM	#12
SamNavy Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2011 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 433	I can't find any specifics pertaining to this in NY, but I'm pretty sure I've read that in certain states, if you are carrying, upon entering a private residence you must inform the homeowner or otherwise get his permission. I'm just thinking of the lawsuit possibilities here. You're in a buddies house sleeping on the couch and are confronted by a textbook obvious burglar... ski-mask, leather gloves, flashlight. You rise from the couch, draw, yell, and are advanced on... and you fire and kill him. Then you find out that your buddy didn't know you carried, and doesn't "believe in violence" or something. Not only are you sued by the family of the burglar, but they get to sue the homeowner as well, and your "buddy" the homeowner sues you too. I'm reminded of this case, and although is different than the scenario above, highlights possible legal consequences/aftermath of even the most righteous shooting: http://www.buffalonews.com/city/article313145.ece Maybe somebody should start a "Do you carry when at a friends house" thread... you know, just heading over to watch the game or something, or for a "dinner party" or whatever?

February 2, 2012, 10:42 AM	#13
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	There is no such law in NY. Even posted "No Guns" signs do not carry force of law. All they can do is ask you to leave. Besides, why are you friends with such a kook?

February 2, 2012, 02:30 PM	#14
hermannr Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2011 Posts: 730	NYS and NYC is a strange place when it comes to law. so look at what happened to Bernard Goetz. He was armed with an unlicensed gin, and shot 4 guys that were trying to rob him. He was in the subway, a public place. He was changred with 4 counts of assault with a deadly weapon, discharging a firearm on the subway...and having an unlicensed pistol. Sentence? 3 years for the unlicensed pistol, aquitted on all other charges. There is a case you can look at and quote. Because of that case, and other things I know about NYS, yes, I do believe that if you were confronted with a burgler, and feared for your life, you could take whatever action you needed to to neutralize that danger to your person, and or the property (as in arson). If anyone wants to think about it. someone is trying to burn down a building you are in, that constitutes a rather serious threat to your wellbeing...No?

February 2, 2012, 04:07 PM	#15
Erikbal Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2012 Location: Olean, NY Posts: 375	My friend would know I was armed and most likely would be upstairs in his bedroom with more guns than I have. I would make it a point to tell him/her before I stayed though, but they know me and know I carry, them and my parents and brother are the only ones that know. I wish there was something written in stone about this. Peetzakilla you're saying in NY I DON'T need to inform them I am armed? So even if an armed robber was co ing at me I could get in trouble for shooting? What about just shooting in the leg or something to disable, not shooting to kill? That is messed up... __________________ S&W Bodyguard 380 Ruger SR9C

February 2, 2012, 04:36 PM	#16
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	What? No. I'm not sure where you're getting that. There is no duty to inform anyone that you're armed and you are specifically authorized by law to use force in any home that you have permission to be in. There is no "shoot to wound" or "shoot to kill". A firearm is deadly physical force and can not be used unless deadly force is necessary. You don't have to tell your friend and if you can articulate a reasonable belief of imminent severe or deadly harm to you or others then you are legally allowed to use lethal force and the homeowners objections after the fact are irrelevant.

February 2, 2012, 05:20 PM	#17
5R milspec Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 360	first I do not live in NY but live in SC.for me as a CWP carrier have to have the right to carry in a friends home or yard.with that said I do have the right to carry at my friends home or yard.so if a guy came up and handed out trouble I would ask myself,is this guy in any way handing out really bad trouble or just enough to just call the cops.if so I would take action.my reason for saying this is because dead men don't talk.other than that I would just call the cops.my life or friends is more important than the bad guys if he is in any way handing out bad trouble.but I would make the right call first and not just shoot to shoot.

February 2, 2012, 09:10 PM	#19
Mr Dish Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2009 Location: Shepherd, MI Posts: 128	WAIT A MINUTE! I thought New York didn't allow you to protect yourself. Aren't their police supposed to do that for you? Defending yourself is defending yourself.....no matter where you are. It seems to me that if you are legally allowed to carry in the state you are in then you could justify defending yourself while in your friends home. Just make sure it is a BG and not just a stranger to you. __________________ Vote Libertarian or QUIT COMPLAINING!