"Cowboy Action" pressures

mehavey · December 23, 2014, 04:55 PM

While fooling around/experimenting to develop accurate cast loads for my Uberti 1873, I settled on duplicating Black Hills' commercial 357Mag CB load.

What struck me was the relatively high pressures associated with "Cowboy Action" in the reference manuals -- particularly Hodgdon's which cites 158gr Cast/Clays/4.6gr as a 33,600CUP "Cowboy Action" load.
http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Hodgdon Basic Manual.pdf

Anyone else see issues here ? (especially when loading for an 1873?)

~~~~~~~~~
NOTE
Black Hills load:
158gr hard lead (BH:21) truncated cone over what appears to be 4.0gr of W231 goes out a 20" barrel at 1,100fps
and prints 1" groups at 50yds using the `73's issue buckhorn sights.

Duplicate:
SAECO #398-158/LTC cast with Lyman#2 goes out exactly the same for 5.0 W231. (Powder Lot/Primer & different alloy effects)

sawdustdad · December 23, 2014, 07:40 PM

I'm loading 2.7g of 700x with a 125g Missouri Bullet Co. round nose (BH of 12) in a .38spl case. At least, that's my "cowboy" load for my .357 Vaquero.

Hodgdon's loading data shows 3.6g of 700x is 14,300 psi. So my load has to be close to 12,000 psi.

Sounds like your "cowboy" load data is a tad bit hot?

mehavey · December 23, 2014, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Sounds like your "cowboy" load data is a tad bit hot?

Not mine (5.0gr/W231/158grCastTC running ~14,000psi),
but Hodgdon's other "Cowboy" listings sure run hot.

http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Hodgdon%...c%20Manual.pdf

rclark · December 23, 2014, 09:21 PM

You notice ... there is a min loading there too. You can load as light or as hot as you wish. Whatever floats your boat. For poppers and speed, I'd be loading in the light side if that was my game

. Of course, I'd be using .45 Colt as more period correct, but ...

Also remember, if a revolver is chambered for .357 it MUST be able to take ALL SAAMI factory and hand loads for .357. So, no problem in your revolver. Non Issue.

mehavey · December 25, 2014, 12:20 PM

Not to belabor a point, but EVERY other load/cartridge in the "Cowboy Action" section of Hodgdon's manual
max's out in the mid teens for pressure.

ONLY the 357 Mag group shows pressures into the mid 30's to be "Cowboy" compatible.

Since I'm looking into what reasonable stresses are for the 1873 rifle in 357Mag (supposedly all "cowboy" loads),
I'm curious as to why such an exception is made for that single cartridge.

g.willikers · December 25, 2014, 12:58 PM

From the chart, it appears that trying for higher velocities with that particular bullet, Clays powder is not a good choice, regardless of what name that load has.

RC20 · December 25, 2014, 04:24 PM

Well this may sound simplistic, but the 357 magnum is a modern cartridge rated at 35,000 psi.

So why would you not utilize the capability of that?

On the other hand, 45 colt has a long history and old guns not capable of the same high pressure modern 45 colt mfg can be used at.

Ergo some mfgs go very conservative as not to get into the issue, others have caveats.

I have not a clue what a Uberti Rifle is, you would want to research it and see if truly is 357 capable and if so how much it can take, I know that some of the levers can open themselves up to head-space issues.

If its a modern capable fire arm and you keep inside the lead bullet velocity issue then it should be just fine.

**Unclenick** · December 25, 2014, 04:40 PM

It's a modern manufacture rifle, and for liability reasons, if it is factory chambered in .357, you can be sure it can withstand .357 pressures just fine. Only someone who liked being sued would make it any other way. Despite the rifle it is modeled after, the metallurgy will be modern and likely stronger than the original just for that reason.

For most period-correct cartridges, like .38 Long Colt, .44 Special or .45 Colt, they were all originally loaded with black powder, and most CAS loads try to duplicate that pressure level. This allows for the fact a lot of CAS participants own and shoot actual antique guns that cannot be counted on to handle modern cartridge pressures. But you can do what you please with your stronger gun. If you are trying to duplicate a .38 Special carbine load's performance for authenticity, for example, then you want to load down to .38 Special pressures for that authenticity, even when you are using .357 cases to keep the feeding consistent and the chamber from developing a lead ring in front of the throat. The starting loads are good for that.

mehavey · December 25, 2014, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Well this may sound simplistic, but the 357 magnum is a modern cartridge
rated at 35,000 psi. So why would you not utilize the capability of that?

Because it's supposedly a "Cowboy" Load section.
ALL other cartridges (include the 44Mag are max'd out at 20,000CUP ( or much, much) lower in that section.

ONLY the 357Mag is allowed to hit mid 30s and still be considered "Cowboy." Why?

Quote:

I have not a clue what a Uberti Rifle is...

This is the Winchester 1873 (made by Uberti -- and as strong or stronger than original or even Winchester's
[Japanese] reissue.). But it is still the original Henry Civil War heritage toggle link-up design. Hence my desire
to stay at "Cowboy" load levels -- which for the 357 appear pretty doggone high.

Don't think I'm complaining. Loaded with SAECO's 158gr truncated cone going out at 1,120-ish or so, it's an
X-ring levergun at 50yds even with buckhorn sights.

`Just don't know why a "Cowboy" 357 is allowed so high a pressure.

postscript: There's always shot #5, don'cha know....

.

Griff, SASS93 · December 25, 2014, 06:41 PM

If you'll look critically at those listings, you note that several of them are above the maximum allowable fps by the "cowboy action" governing body rules... "SASS". The pistol has an upper max of 1,000fps and the rifle's is 1,400fps.

And most clubs would rather you keep those loads at home... it's their steel you're shooting at... and most probably don't use hardened steel targets... it being expensive to cut and sometimes difficult for the neophyte to work with.

I've always found it humorous that co-called "Cowboy" loads are generally listed as hotter than your run-of-the-mill 158grain lead .38Special. Even among those makers that list both their regular .38Special load and the same weight bullet in a "Cowboy" load.

For instance: Winchester's recommended 38 Special "Cowboy" load is their USA38CB, which from a 4" test barrel is 800fps. Their "plinking" load for the same 158 grain .38Spl is their X38S1P, which from a 4" is only rated at 755fps. Other manufacturers of "Cowboy" ammo have similar data. The .45Colt ammo is just the opposite in variance. Why?

The only thing I can think of is that some clubs include reactive targets... and although SASS states that reactive target should be calibrated for a std 158 grain .38Spl, I've noted over a number of years that hits below the median point might not take such a target down. So the manufacturers are giving their "cowboy" purchaser a margin of error that isn't in their standard ammo line.

No, this isn't the first time I've pondered this question.

mehavey · December 25, 2014, 09:14 PM

It suddenly struck me that we're dealing with a bolt-thrust limitation
(given the toggle linkage) instead of straight chamber pressure.

In that case, the 357 can be loaded to 38+P pressures/~20ksi and not
exceed the bolt thrust of a standard 44-40.

December 23, 2014, 04:55 PM	#1
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	"Cowboy Action" pressures While fooling around/experimenting to develop accurate cast loads for my Uberti 1873, I settled on duplicating Black Hills' commercial 357Mag CB load. What struck me was the relatively high pressures associated with "Cowboy Action" in the reference manuals -- particularly Hodgdon's which cites 158gr Cast/Clays/4.6gr as a 33,600CUP "Cowboy Action" load. http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Hodgdon Basic Manual.pdf Anyone else see issues here ? (especially when loading for an 1873?) ~~~~~~~~~ NOTE Black Hills load: 158gr hard lead (BH:21) truncated cone over what appears to be 4.0gr of W231 goes out a 20" barrel at 1,100fps and prints 1" groups at 50yds using the `73's issue buckhorn sights. Duplicate: SAECO #398-158/LTC cast with Lyman#2 goes out exactly the same for 5.0 W231. (Powder Lot/Primer & different alloy effects) Last edited by mehavey; December 23, 2014 at 05:41 PM.

December 23, 2014, 09:21 PM	#4
rclark Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2009 Location: Butte, MT Posts: 2,619	You notice ... there is a min loading there too. You can load as light or as hot as you wish. Whatever floats your boat. For poppers and speed, I'd be loading in the light side if that was my game . Of course, I'd be using .45 Colt as more period correct, but ... Also remember, if a revolver is chambered for .357 it MUST be able to take ALL SAAMI factory and hand loads for .357. So, no problem in your revolver. Non Issue. __________________ A clinger and deplorable, MAGA, and life NRA member. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Single Action .45 Colt (Sometimes colloquially referred to by its alias as the .45 'Long' Colt or .45LC). Don't leave home without it. That said, the .44Spec is right up their too... but the .45 Colt is still the king.

December 25, 2014, 12:58 PM	#6
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	From the chart, it appears that trying for higher velocities with that particular bullet, Clays powder is not a good choice, regardless of what name that load has. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

December 25, 2014, 04:40 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	It's a modern manufacture rifle, and for liability reasons, if it is factory chambered in .357, you can be sure it can withstand .357 pressures just fine. Only someone who liked being sued would make it any other way. Despite the rifle it is modeled after, the metallurgy will be modern and likely stronger than the original just for that reason. For most period-correct cartridges, like .38 Long Colt, .44 Special or .45 Colt, they were all originally loaded with black powder, and most CAS loads try to duplicate that pressure level. This allows for the fact a lot of CAS participants own and shoot actual antique guns that cannot be counted on to handle modern cartridge pressures. But you can do what you please with your stronger gun. If you are trying to duplicate a .38 Special carbine load's performance for authenticity, for example, then you want to load down to .38 Special pressures for that authenticity, even when you are using .357 cases to keep the feeding consistent and the chamber from developing a lead ring in front of the throat. The starting loads are good for that. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 23, 2014, 07:40 PM	#2
sawdustdad Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2014 Location: Virginia Posts: 484	I'm loading 2.7g of 700x with a 125g Missouri Bullet Co. round nose (BH of 12) in a .38spl case. At least, that's my "cowboy" load for my .357 Vaquero. Hodgdon's loading data shows 3.6g of 700x is 14,300 psi. So my load has to be close to 12,000 psi. Sounds like your "cowboy" load data is a tad bit hot?

December 25, 2014, 12:20 PM	#5
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	Not to belabor a point, but EVERY other load/cartridge in the "Cowboy Action" section of Hodgdon's manual max's out in the mid teens for pressure. ONLY the 357 Mag group shows pressures into the mid 30's to be "Cowboy" compatible. Since I'm looking into what reasonable stresses are for the 1873 rifle in 357Mag (supposedly all "cowboy" loads), I'm curious as to why such an exception is made for that single cartridge.

December 25, 2014, 04:24 PM	#7
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Well this may sound simplistic, but the 357 magnum is a modern cartridge rated at 35,000 psi. So why would you not utilize the capability of that? On the other hand, 45 colt has a long history and old guns not capable of the same high pressure modern 45 colt mfg can be used at. Ergo some mfgs go very conservative as not to get into the issue, others have caveats. I have not a clue what a Uberti Rifle is, you would want to research it and see if truly is 357 capable and if so how much it can take, I know that some of the levers can open themselves up to head-space issues. If its a modern capable fire arm and you keep inside the lead bullet velocity issue then it should be just fine.

December 25, 2014, 06:41 PM	#10
Griff, SASS93 Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Posts: 22	If you'll look critically at those listings, you note that several of them are above the maximum allowable fps by the "cowboy action" governing body rules... "SASS". The pistol has an upper max of 1,000fps and the rifle's is 1,400fps. And most clubs would rather you keep those loads at home... it's their steel you're shooting at... and most probably don't use hardened steel targets... it being expensive to cut and sometimes difficult for the neophyte to work with. I've always found it humorous that co-called "Cowboy" loads are generally listed as hotter than your run-of-the-mill 158grain lead .38Special. Even among those makers that list both their regular .38Special load and the same weight bullet in a "Cowboy" load. For instance: Winchester's recommended 38 Special "Cowboy" load is their USA38CB, which from a 4" test barrel is 800fps. Their "plinking" load for the same 158 grain .38Spl is their X38S1P, which from a 4" is only rated at 755fps. Other manufacturers of "Cowboy" ammo have similar data. The .45Colt ammo is just the opposite in variance. Why? The only thing I can think of is that some clubs include reactive targets... and although SASS states that reactive target should be calibrated for a std 158 grain .38Spl, I've noted over a number of years that hits below the median point might not take such a target down. So the manufacturers are giving their "cowboy" purchaser a margin of error that isn't in their standard ammo line. No, this isn't the first time I've pondered this question.

December 25, 2014, 09:14 PM	#11
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	It suddenly struck me that we're dealing with a bolt-thrust limitation (given the toggle linkage) instead of straight chamber pressure. In that case, the 357 can be loaded to 38+P pressures/~20ksi and not exceed the bolt thrust of a standard 44-40.