armed protesting

[horatioo]

At the Volokh Conspiracy, David Kopel has an extraordinary post featuring a long quote from civil rights activist John R. Salter, one of the organizers of the famous Jackson, Mississippi sit-ins, describing the crucial role that firearms played in keeping him and other civil rights activists safe from Ku Klux Klan “night-riders” and other white terrorists. Here’s a brief excerpt from Salter’s comments:

I was beaten and arrested many times and hospitalized twice. This happened to many, many people in the movement. No one knows what kind of massive racist retaliation would have been directed against grassroots black people had the black community not had a healthy measure of firearms within it....

Later, I worked for years in the Deep South as a full-time civil rights organizer. Like a martyred friend of mine, NAACP staffer Medgar W. Evers, I, too, was on many Klan death lists and I, too, traveled armed: a .38 special Smith and Wesson revolver and a 44/40 Winchester carbine.

The knowledge that I had these weapons and was willing to use them kept enemies at bay. Years later, in a changed Mississippi, this was confirmed by a former prominent leader of the White Knights of the KKK when we had an interesting dinner together at Jackson.


http://reason.com/blog#article_139172

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Noble sentiments but a drive-by. No commentary. Kopel and I talked about this type of usage in regards to the Deacons for Defense movie.

But closed.

PS - if the OP wants to write a commentary - PM me and we can open it.

[azredhawk44]

Originally posted by horatioo:
(closed for lack of commentary)

At the Volokh Conspiracy, David Kopel has an extraordinary post featuring a long quote from civil rights activist John R. Salter, one of the organizers of the famous Jackson, Mississippi sit-ins, describing the crucial role that firearms played in keeping him and other civil rights activists safe from Ku Klux Klan “night-riders” and other white terrorists. Here’s a brief excerpt from Salter’s comments:

I was beaten and arrested many times and hospitalized twice. This happened to many, many people in the movement. No one knows what kind of massive racist retaliation would have been directed against grassroots black people had the black community not had a healthy measure of firearms within it....

Later, I worked for years in the Deep South as a full-time civil rights organizer. Like a martyred friend of mine, NAACP staffer Medgar W. Evers, I, too, was on many Klan death lists and I, too, traveled armed: a .38 special Smith and Wesson revolver and a 44/40 Winchester carbine.

The knowledge that I had these weapons and was willing to use them kept enemies at bay. Years later, in a changed Mississippi, this was confirmed by a former prominent leader of the White Knights of the KKK when we had an interesting dinner together at Jackson.


http://reason.com/blog#article_139172

I've always held that the right to self defense enjoyed by the 60's civil rights movement deserves every bit as much acknowledgement as the right to self defense for today's conservative/libertarian protestors such as what happened in New Hampshire and Arizona during the 2008 campaign:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/arc..._dangerous.php

This man was getting attacked (spit on, pushed, assaulted) by union thugs before they finally realized he was armed and decided to back off.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_261279.html

This man (an acquaintance of mine and a good man) was carrying his AR and pistol for several reasons at the Obama rally: To protect himself from abuses from thugs such as New Hampshire unionites, to declare his support for the 2nd amendment, and simply because it is his right as an American.

The political tides have turned, but there's a reason that the 2A and the 1A are so close together to one another: If the 1A cannot be peacefully and honorably used by both sides of an issue, then the 2A safeguards the 1A rights of the "unpopular" group.

God made man; Sam Colt made them equal.

God made the Earth; Paul Mauser drew the lines.

We've heard the various sayings. They're not just idle phrases.

Originally Posted by V for Vendetta

Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

Words. Words are not meaning in their own right; they are a means to communicate meaning. Words are empty without reason, action or substance behind them, in the same way that the 1A is hollow without the 2A to defend it. Words put to eloquence the power of the gun; The gun bestows power to those that are denied their natural rights. The 1A and 2A are symbiotic in that way.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Merged, let the games begin. Usually, the OP has to request such but it's OK.

[markj]

was carrying his AR and pistol for several reasons at the Obama rally

Were they loaded?

I would never carry to a political function for fear of SS guys getting the wrong idea as they are armed and do have ammo in them arms.

Guns and protest just dont go together, too many guys get all heated up and throw a gun in the mix.......

Havent protested since 1968 and dont intend to do so these days but belive folks have the right to protest as they wish in a non violent fashion.

[SigP6Carry]

I actually absolutely love the idea of this thread, but doubt that there could possibly be a peaceable discussion of it and fear that it will degrade, extremely quickly, into a bi-partisan "us v them" debate.

I'd like to tell the admins that I appreciate them leaving this open and allowing the discussion and hope they do keep it from degrading, that being said:

I totally agree with almost everything that the articles talk about. Gun control laws in the united states during the 19th century were all about disarming slaves and ex-slaves. Many men were lynched and capitally punished by the Klan and southern (and in some cases, even northern) police "justly" by applying laws that cornered them. Gun laws being one. During reconstruction, guns that weren't military designs became illegal, as a means to disarm former slaves and lower-class whites. I know of at least one specific lynching that was "caused" by a black men using "illegal" guns. Every African American in the town was rounded up and interrogated, often times brutally, because of a handful of men breaking an unjust rule.

Think about that in relation to gun control. It's not so much about taking power away from a minority anymore, but more about imposing your own sense of safety and justice on other people.

I know that everyone on this board can agree: gun control makes little sense. But I've talked to many people who have ideas that it's much more harsh than it is and think it should be stricter. When I discuss it with them, they tend to listen to reason. Of course, it's all about trying to see on their level and elaborate.

I think that the people marching at the Obama rallies with the guns helped the image of gun owners. But, I haven't done any surveys. I believe that they showed up with guns showing and didn't cause any trouble, fight or draw down. They were peaceable and kind. I personally would love to be able to show up at an Obama rally (who I support, so it'd be different than the folks in the articles) with a gun on my hip. Of course, if I lived in a place where I could open carry, I don't think my gun would ever be left at home!

Long winded, doesn't make a solid point... halfway to a Doctoral Thesis!

[rwilson452]

We had a guy here in PA that carried in the area of an Obama rally. The cops busted him and took him to the SS. As he was outside the exclusion area the SS said the didn't have a dog in the fight. So they arrested him on several other charges. The jury said not guilty. That took time and money. It is thoght that as someone had taped it all and the jury saw it they could see the charges were false. the only ones causing a fuss were the cops.

[azredhawk44]

Were they loaded?

I would never carry to a political function for fear of SS guys getting the wrong idea as they are armed and do have ammo in them arms.

Guns and protest just dont go together, too many guys get all heated up and throw a gun in the mix.......

I tend to be... sparing... with praise for law enforcement.

That being said, I have to acknowledge the complete professionalism and concern for ALL parties' civil liberties exhibited by the Phoenix Police Department during Obama's trip here.

The man with the AR and pistol that I mentioned earlier... the pistol was loaded but the mag well of the AR was empty (I believe he had a loaded magazine in his pocket but do not recollect).

The Phoenix PD had a detective working as liaison between the group the "AR man" was with and the event core security (the secret service). According to this detective, the SS had absolutely no concerns about the AR out in the crowd, or the dozens or hundreds of armed CCW permitees either openly carrying or concealing. They may have had eyes on "AR man" but it's not like they sat there with a locked and loaded countersniper putting crosshairs on his back the whole time.

The biggest result of the whole thing was the "Freedom's Phoenix" people (AR man was part of them... they are the big libertarian/Tea-party group here in AZ) were left alone by the SEIU and other union brawlers, who went in search of lower profile and easier targets to intimidate and make leave.

That's one strong argument for being armed during political activity.

However, the biggest argument of all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU

Some Black Panther or Aztlan or Union thug or Communist group decides to selectively allow voters into polls.

This is your vote we're talking about. How important is your vote to you?

Is it worth a 911 call? What if you're coming up to the polls and it's close to closing time? The investigative work of a 911 call will take the rest of the time that the polling station is open. You won't get to vote.

What's your vote worth to you? And the principle that all of us, regardless of our group associations and beliefs, get a chance to present one (1) vote?

I'm not advocating an immediate gunning-down of the Black Panthers just for standing outside the polling place... however, the above situation is potentially a case where you can lose your right to vote without being extremely assertive of your rights.

Perhaps you walk up and they interdict you because you're white and wearing a suit after getting off work. They don't let you pass.

You lawfully approached the polls and left your CCW gun in your vehicle. You have only a few minutes left to be in line to vote.

These types of choices are difficult, but they are our heritage as Americans.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Armed and harassing thuggery is not just confined to the the left or the groups cited. History shows that right wing extremists and racists are prone to do such. It is easy to forget that.

Thus, I caution against going in that direction in this discussion.

[raimius]

IMO, having a firearm can be good or bad.
When armed, one must use the utmost restraint. That gun isn't a toy or a bargaining chip. It isn't to be used to coerce. It is for defense of one's self and those who may need defending. To use a gun in another manner is to invite contempt and danger (physical and legal).

If you have a gun for protection while at a peaceful protest, more power to you. If you have a gun to protest with--you are likely leaving the bounds of civilized society...

[azredhawk44]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

Armed and harassing thuggery is not just confined to the the left or the groups cited. History shows that right wing extremists and racists are prone to do such. It is easy to forget that.

Thus, I caution against going in that direction in this discussion.

However:

This thread is about the parallels between the original civil rights movement and the right to self defense, and the new movement to protect America and the acts of intimidation by those that seek to silence opposition merely because they disagree with it.

The current actors on that stage in 2008 were all leftists. SEIU and Black Panthers.

I assume in your contention that you mean to refer to white superiority groups such as the KKK or skinheads or Aryans.

It's hard to say whether KKK, Aryans or skinhead groups are right or left. They tend to pay lip service to fundamentalist christianity (making them appear to be superficially "right wing"), but they adopt and adhere to fascist or socialist standards quite readily (a typical trait of "left wing" politics).

However, the Jim Crow laws that disarmed blacks in the late 19th and early 20th centuries were written, sponsored and enacted by leftists. The Civil Rights Act was stonewalled and filibustered by Democrats.

I'd contest that the vast majority of political thuggery in America is actually perpetrated by those whose voter registration shows them to be left-of-center. I'd be interested to be proven wrong, however.

I would finally contend that we ALL get distracted by the false-flag of right/left politics, ignoring the real political axis at play: statist/individualist.

ALL of those that engage in political thuggery worship at one Statist altar or the other... fascism or socialism.

[Tom Servo]

This man (an acquaintance of mine and a good man) was carrying his AR and pistol for several reasons at the Obama rally: To protect himself from abuses from thugs such as New Hampshire unionites, to declare his support for the 2nd amendment, and simply because it is his right as an American.

Do you have a source for that? In all his statements I read, I never once heard Mr. Broughton (or Mr. Kostric) refer to the possibility of violence against them as a reason for carrying their guns. Politics seemed to be the motivation.

Broughton's decision to carry an AR-15 was a premeditated attention grab organized by a radio show host named Ernest Hancock. Given the huge amount of security and visibility for the event, I seriously doubt he had to fear any sort of violence. Carrying a concealed weapon is one thing, but I can't see how a rifle would be a safe or practical weapon in a large crowd.

I'm all for the right of protesters to arm themselves, particularly when asserting their 1st Amendment rights could lead to violence. In fact, I think that's a wonderful illustration of the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. I just don't think that's what these folks were doing at last year's rallies.

[azredhawk44]

Do you have a source for that?

No. Just some conversations with him before and after the fact... I did a FTF private party trade with him and we sat and jawed for awhile. Bumped into him a couple of times other than that and some brief conversations about his thoughts after the fact.

The AR wasn't there for protection... it was unloaded, after all. The AR was a political statement, in my opinion. The pistol, however, was loaded. Interpretation of that fact is left to us all. He was aware of the New Hampshire situation the week before.

It's not my place to put words in his mouth so I'll refrain from commenting any more on the Phoenix gentleman with the AR. His motivations were his own... I happen to agree with the course of action he chose and have a lot of respect for the way he executed his plan.

[azredhawk44]

premeditated attention grab organized by a radio show host named Ernest Hancock

There's something to be said for that: Ernie is an attention-"strumpet." (I softened that up for Art's Grammaw.)

"Premeditated" is a bit of a harsh term, though. They pre-emptively worked out the details with Phoenix PD, who coordinated it with the SS so that nobody got shot/arrested/etc.

Much like the open-carry movement in CA has hurdles such as on-demand frisks for no tangible reason and the mandate that the gun has to be carried unloaded, the political-carry movement has its own hurdles to overcome.

Even though Ernie is a fan of the limelight... it's his job as a leader in the Freedom's Phoenix organization. Calling him a "radio show host" is a bit aggrandizing, though. If I recall correctly, it's a streamed online "radio" show with a very small listener base.

http://libertynewsradio.com/wire/hosts/hancock.php

So, if he were less flamboyant he wouldn't be doing his job. His real passion is not his little radio show... it's Freedom's Phoenix and grassroots libertarian activism.

[Tom Servo]

Understood, but I have a problem comparing guys like Broughton and Kostric with those who felt the need to arm themselves for fear of reprisal in the 1960's. A friend of mine, whose mother still bears a scar on her face from Selma, got incensed when someone compared Broughton to Rosa Parks.

There are some real differences. Neither Mr. Broughton or Mr. Kostric ever articulated any fear for their welfare. Neither of them were subject to a systematic deprivation of their civil rights. Both men are free to protest publicly, they both have unfettered freedom of the press, and they need not fear arrest for speaking their views.

Neither of them are being targeted by the Klan, or any other such group. As far as I can tell, both are well-fed middle-class suburbanites.

Then there's the question of Mr. Broughton's pastor. I don't remember even the most radical of black leaders ever calling for the death of LBJ.

Don't get me wrong. They have a right to do what they're doing. I just don't see the parallel. I see a "hey, look at me" attitude sloppily draped in the guise of political protest.

Armed and harassing thuggery is not just confined to the the left or the groups cited. History shows that right wing extremists and racists are prone to do such.

Good point. It will happen anywhere there is an entrenched majority that a) feels threatened, and b) controls the local police and/or courts.

Thankfully, there are very few places left in this country where that sort of thing can happen.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The Democrats that were in favor of segregation, etc. became the conservative right Republicans we see today in the South. Geez.

But, we are straying into politics.

I'm uneasy with this thread - if we discuss the politics of the groups. I think we all agree that being armed is one way to protect civil liberties.

We get into a contest of whom has the bigger set of nuts.

We've done the the utility of the RKBA of showing up at an unrelated event with a firearm. Postulating threats of unknown real magnitude if you go to a nutso right event and speak left or a nutso left event and speak right is just commando fun.

I don't see us going anywhere useful. Sorry folks, Closed.