Even in the best case scenario...

Mokumbear · December 25, 2009, 07:42 PM

I was very reluctant to post this out of respect for the 4 Tacoma, WA
police officers who were murdered.

All the same, it's relevant.

Here you have four open carry policemen with training and firearms knowledge.

If they can't escape someone with murderous intentions, what chance do you have pulling a little concealed carry firearm?

It seems that unless you are VERY alert, you can't defeat an opponent who has the jump on you and nothing to fear.

Comments?

XD Gunner · December 25, 2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

If they can't escape someone with murderous intentions, what chance do you have pulling a little concealed carry firearm?

I give my utmost sympathies to those affected by this encounter, however, there is a lot of difference between a police shooting (where the police are known to have firearms) and a CC attack where the victim is assumed to be unarmed. On that note, I don't carry a "little" anything, XD45ACP. 365 days a year. It would be a 12GA Shotgun if I could pull off the "limp".

It's a different story when you are prepared to face a gun, and when suddenly the helpless victim has shot your partner and is now turning on you. I plan on defending myself with the utmost aggression, prejudice, and resolve if I find myself in a bad situation, not telling myself "my little ccfirearm is no match"

mnhntr · December 25, 2009, 08:33 PM

Situational awareness is the key to survival. If you let your guard down, bad things can happen. I never sit in a public place without being able to see the door, and never with my back to the door. If engaged in conversation be rude and look around every few seconds. Always live in a higher level conciousness, and don't cloud your awareness with alcohal or drugs.

NO DISRESPECT INTENDED, but it seems the officers let their guard down.

Hard Ball · December 25, 2009, 08:48 PM

"but it seems the officers let their guard down."

I am afraid they did

Brian Pfleuger · December 25, 2009, 09:17 PM

If it's an unexpected bad guy who starts out with bullets flying and you happen to be among the first targets then you're pretty screwed. Fortunately, the VAST, vast majority of SD scenarios are not started with guns blazing. I still say that if the BG even has the gun out then you're going to be in a LOT of trouble. In any case, being ahead on the reaction curve, or getting ahead, is obviously paramount.

raftman · December 25, 2009, 09:21 PM

It's like looking at a case in which someone wore a seat belt but still died in a car wreck, it doesn't prove that seat belts are largely useless. A concealed weapon, just like a seat belt, isn't always gonna be guaranteed to save you when something goes horribly wrong, but you don't have to look very hard to find examples of cases in which having one did make a positive difference.

#18indycolts · December 25, 2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

It seems that unless you are VERY alert, you can't defeat an opponent who has the jump on you and nothing to fear.

You said it, unless you have a superpower "spidey sense" you're not gonna dodge the uninevitable. Sometimes its just your time to go.

Wagonman · December 25, 2009, 10:41 PM

+1 Indy. You can't be ON all the time even at work.

N.H. Yankee · December 26, 2009, 09:50 AM

No scenario is perfect and I would rather be armed and have a chance than not and have no chance at all. One of the officers did wound the suspect, also this guy had a premeditated agenda to ( for loss of a better word ) target law enforcement. The chances of you or I being targeted in the same situation is slim, also I am sure these officers felt relatively safe due to numbers. They most certainly were caught off guard and an ambush has the tactical advantage. There are many instances where a firearm saved a person or people. One bad incident doesn't make carrying a firearm pointless.

Tennessee Gentleman · December 26, 2009, 10:56 AM

Agree with Peetza and Indy. If someone wants YOU dead real bad unless you are lucky and they screw up while attempting to kill you, then you are a goner.

Double Naught Spy · December 26, 2009, 11:34 AM

In the Tacoma case, customers were coming and going from the shop while the officers did paperwork. I highly doubt that they saw, assessed, and derived a contingency response attack plan for each customer that walked in the door and then had an ongoing set of responses for combinations of customers (just in case a potential attack wasn't going to be by a sole aggressor) and staff and kept the response plans updated as each customer and staff member changed positions in the shop. I highly doubt the officers had any sort of plan for if on of the other officers was an aggressor either and kept that plan continually updated.

The ongoing combinations and permutations of possible scenarios and responses is staggering and it is unrealistic to believe that we can handle everything all the time. Even professionals who claim to be "on" 24/7 are easily duped. The more complex the situation, the more easily duped.

The officers let their guard down? Maybe. They certainly can't treat everyone they see or come in contact with as a potentially hostile murderer. The more realistic assumption would be that the perp was not seen as a threat until the perp started to act aggressively and unless one or more of the cops was watching the perp at that moment (along with all the other customers, staff, and other cops), then they were behind the curve. That is basically how ambushes work and why they can be successful.

If you have ever missed anything that has gone on around you, then you were potentially a victim because your guard was down. There is no way you can be doing more than one thing and having total situational awareness. In fact, total situational awareness does not exist but anything short of total situational awareness leaves you vulnerable.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 26, 2009, 11:39 AM

Despite 'being on guard' at all times, if a normal looking person going about everyday business pulls out a gun, then they can shoot you.

Previously, I posted how you can shoot 3 people in about 2 seconds.

To the OP, most incidents have some precursor indicators - you are not targeted for assassination. Thus, the utility of the concealed gun.

Shawn Dodson · December 26, 2009, 11:55 AM

Possible mindset of the officers: Who's gonna start trouble with four cops?

I've spent my time sitting in coffee shops doing reports. I've been just as vulnerable.

Ambush tactics surprise you and put you at a time-competitive disadvantage.

The bad guy exploited the officer's inattention (condition white). There were probably threat cues, one or two of which seem noticed by the baristas when the attacker entered the shop.

Tamara · December 26, 2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokumbear

If they can't escape someone with murderous intentions, what chance do you have pulling a little concealed carry firearm?

It seems that unless you are VERY alert, you can't defeat an opponent who has the jump on you and nothing to fear.

Comments?

I live in a state that probably contains half-a-million or more scope-sighted rifles and shotguns. If somebody out there just wants to backshoot me tomorrow while I'm sitting on the porch, minding my own business, there's not bupkis I can do about it. Hence, I try to live my life in such a fashion that folks are unlikely to want to shoot me in the grape out of the blue.

The pistol I carry is for far more likely scenarios: muggings, rapes, carjackings, home invasions, what-have-you. All of these scenarios have a confrontational component, and happen to normal everyday folk a lot more often than ambush murders.

Matt19 · December 26, 2009, 02:46 PM

Every situation has its own dynamic. One size definitely does not fit all.

Tennessee Gentleman · December 26, 2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokumbear

If they can't escape someone with murderous intentions, what chance do you have pulling a little concealed carry firearm?

Surprise. The first principle of War.

Dwight55 · December 27, 2009, 03:54 PM

The only life situation we will universally face with full preparation is our own personal death.

Outside of that, . . . be prepared, . . . be observant, . . . watch out for your friends and neighbors, . . . be kind, . . . be obedient, . . . and be careful.

May God bless,
Dwight

December 25, 2009, 08:48 PM	#4
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	"but it seems the officers let their guard down." I am afraid they did __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."

December 25, 2009, 09:17 PM	#5
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	If it's an unexpected bad guy who starts out with bullets flying and you happen to be among the first targets then you're pretty screwed. Fortunately, the VAST, vast majority of SD scenarios are not started with guns blazing. I still say that if the BG even has the gun out then you're going to be in a LOT of trouble. In any case, being ahead on the reaction curve, or getting ahead, is obviously paramount. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; December 25, 2009 at 09:26 PM.

December 25, 2009, 09:21 PM	#6
raftman Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,890	It's like looking at a case in which someone wore a seat belt but still died in a car wreck, it doesn't prove that seat belts are largely useless. A concealed weapon, just like a seat belt, isn't always gonna be guaranteed to save you when something goes horribly wrong, but you don't have to look very hard to find examples of cases in which having one did make a positive difference. __________________ "My momma, she done told me, there's heart and then there's hate If one of 'em's inside of you, the other one, it aint."

December 26, 2009, 09:50 AM	#9
N.H. Yankee Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: Rural N.H. Posts: 1,586	No scenario is perfect and I would rather be armed and have a chance than not and have no chance at all. One of the officers did wound the suspect, also this guy had a premeditated agenda to ( for loss of a better word ) target law enforcement. The chances of you or I being targeted in the same situation is slim, also I am sure these officers felt relatively safe due to numbers. They most certainly were caught off guard and an ambush has the tactical advantage. There are many instances where a firearm saved a person or people. One bad incident doesn't make carrying a firearm pointless. __________________ The real danger to America is not abroad but within.. Having an open mind is a good thing, but not so open that your brains fall out! Save America, abort liberalism.

December 26, 2009, 10:56 AM	#10
Tennessee Gentleman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,775	Agree with Peetza and Indy. If someone wants YOU dead real bad unless you are lucky and they screw up while attempting to kill you, then you are a goner. __________________ "God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier.

December 25, 2009, 07:42 PM	#1
Mokumbear Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2005 Posts: 696	Even in the best case scenario... I was very reluctant to post this out of respect for the 4 Tacoma, WA police officers who were murdered. All the same, it's relevant. Here you have four open carry policemen with training and firearms knowledge. If they can't escape someone with murderous intentions, what chance do you have pulling a little concealed carry firearm? It seems that unless you are VERY alert, you can't defeat an opponent who has the jump on you and nothing to fear. Comments?

December 25, 2009, 08:33 PM	#3
mnhntr Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Posts: 972	Situational awareness is the key to survival. If you let your guard down, bad things can happen. I never sit in a public place without being able to see the door, and never with my back to the door. If engaged in conversation be rude and look around every few seconds. Always live in a higher level conciousness, and don't cloud your awareness with alcohal or drugs. NO DISRESPECT INTENDED, but it seems the officers let their guard down.

December 25, 2009, 10:41 PM	#8
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	+1 Indy. You can't be ON all the time even at work.

December 26, 2009, 11:34 AM	#11
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	In the Tacoma case, customers were coming and going from the shop while the officers did paperwork. I highly doubt that they saw, assessed, and derived a contingency response attack plan for each customer that walked in the door and then had an ongoing set of responses for combinations of customers (just in case a potential attack wasn't going to be by a sole aggressor) and staff and kept the response plans updated as each customer and staff member changed positions in the shop. I highly doubt the officers had any sort of plan for if on of the other officers was an aggressor either and kept that plan continually updated. The ongoing combinations and permutations of possible scenarios and responses is staggering and it is unrealistic to believe that we can handle everything all the time. Even professionals who claim to be "on" 24/7 are easily duped. The more complex the situation, the more easily duped. The officers let their guard down? Maybe. They certainly can't treat everyone they see or come in contact with as a potentially hostile murderer. The more realistic assumption would be that the perp was not seen as a threat until the perp started to act aggressively and unless one or more of the cops was watching the perp at that moment (along with all the other customers, staff, and other cops), then they were behind the curve. That is basically how ambushes work and why they can be successful. If you have ever missed anything that has gone on around you, then you were potentially a victim because your guard was down. There is no way you can be doing more than one thing and having total situational awareness. In fact, total situational awareness does not exist but anything short of total situational awareness leaves you vulnerable. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

December 26, 2009, 11:39 AM	#12
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Despite 'being on guard' at all times, if a normal looking person going about everyday business pulls out a gun, then they can shoot you. Previously, I posted how you can shoot 3 people in about 2 seconds. To the OP, most incidents have some precursor indicators - you are not targeted for assassination. Thus, the utility of the concealed gun. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 26, 2009, 11:55 AM	#13
Shawn Dodson Junior member Join Date: December 16, 1998 Location: Titusville, FL, USA Posts: 1,030	Possible mindset of the officers: Who's gonna start trouble with four cops? I've spent my time sitting in coffee shops doing reports. I've been just as vulnerable. Ambush tactics surprise you and put you at a time-competitive disadvantage. The bad guy exploited the officer's inattention (condition white). There were probably threat cues, one or two of which seem noticed by the baristas when the attacker entered the shop. Last edited by Shawn Dodson; December 26, 2009 at 12:01 PM.

December 26, 2009, 02:46 PM	#15
Matt19 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 1999 Posts: 315	Every situation has its own dynamic. One size definitely does not fit all. __________________ In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to it.-Bear Bryant.

December 27, 2009, 03:54 PM	#17
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	The only life situation we will universally face with full preparation is our own personal death. Outside of that, . . . be prepared, . . . be observant, . . . watch out for your friends and neighbors, . . . be kind, . . . be obedient, . . . and be careful. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

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