The Great Debate -Slide Lock/Release vs Rack the Slide

[Double Naught Spy]

PawPaw, you can call it what you want. What you call it doesn't necessarily imply the function of the part...which was sort of part of my point. I noticed that you only picked 1911 manufacturers. Even amongst them, they don't agree, huh? However, "slide stop" does appear to be the term most commonly in use, but some manufacturers use multiple terms for the same part within the same gun or between models, though they perform the same function.

Beretta calls it a slide catch and a slide stop for the 92
www.berettausa.com/file.aspx?DocumentId=11

The Army called it a slide stop for the 1911 in Army TM9-1005-211-35P Pistol M1911A1

From the various manuals from here http://stevespages.com/page7b.htm . This is a very good link for manuals and it is FREE!


Glock calls it a slide stop lever

Korth calls it a slide catch http://stevespages.com/pdf/korth_semi-auto.pdf
MDR calls it a slide catch on the Baby Desert Eagle and Desert Eagle http://stevespages.com/pdf/magnum_re...gle_manual.pdf and http://stevespages.com/pdf/magnum_re...gle.manual.pdf
Ruger calls it a slide stop http://stevespages.com/pdf/ruger_p85.pdf
Sig calls it a slide catch on the 229 and sp2009 http://stevespages.com/pdf/sig_p229.pdf and http://stevespages.com/pdf/sig_sp2009_2340.pdf

This is interesting..
Kahr calls is a slide release lever on the MK http://stevespages.com/pdf/kahr_mk.pdf
Kahr calls it a slide stop on the P380 http://stevespages.com/pdf/kahr_p380.pdf

HK calls it a slide catch lever on the P7 http://stevespages.com/pdf/hk_p7_owner.pdf
but HK calls it a slide release on the HK45 http://stevespages.com/pdf/hk_hk45-series.pdf
So y'all can look up guns until the cows come home and figure out whether your gun has a slide stop, slide catch, slide release, or as in the case of several of the semi-auto pistols, doesn't have any at all!

[huskytaio]

Since I have a handful of Sigs, Glocks and 1911s, all with slightly different slide releases, I always rack the slide to maintain consistent muscle memory for any of my handguns. Plus when you pull the slide back and let it rip, it gives the slide a little more slide momentum.

[PawPaw]

Originally Posted by Double Naught

I noticed that you only picked 1911 manufacturers.

Well, yeah, duuh. The 1911 is the only semiauto that matters. The rest of them are mere shadows.

[GJSchulze]

It functions as all three, so call it whatever you want; no one will get confused.

Whether you rack or press the button should be determined by which works best for you with that particular gun. Best can be defined by fastest and/or most reliable depending on the circumstances. Self defense wants fast, but ununreliable will get you killed. When your life is threatened and adrenaline is pumping you are best off with racking, but you better know all the other methods, too.

Action shooting competition wants speed more than reliability, but unreliable will lose you a second or two. Use what's fastest for you with that gun.

In USPSA no one wants to go to slide lock. In IDPA, everyone goes to slide lock because you can only dump an empty magazine; the tactical reload is slower.

So, having said that, I've been using the slide release when practicing with my carry (XD 9mm SC) and have just decided to go back to racking the slide. BTW, I have to use an overhang grip to rack because my grip isn't strong enough to pinch grip. The slide on my competition XDm 9mm 5.25 releases when the magazine is inserted with a little force (95% of the time).

[Koda94]

Years ago, someone told me that you rack the slide to prevent wear and rounding of the contact surface and edge of the slidestop.

[FineUpstanding]

Part II of this should be, if you rack the slide, do you use weak hand curled over top the slide vs. thumb and index finger pinch...

[Walt Sherrill]

An acquaintance who has worked, for several years, as a small arms/force-on-force instructor with Special Ops troops at Fort Bragg says the U.S. military has changed it's training on how reloads with handguns are done...

In the harsh conditions in the Sandboxes (Afghanistan and Iraq), the stress of battles, and the fact that many of the troops wear gloves, they now advocate use of the slide release/stop instead of variations of the sling-shot or hand-over method. With the old method guns frequently did not go fully go into battery, and that meant the shooter had to perform a time-consuming manual "re-do" and the loss of a round. When using the slide stop/release the problems generally went away.

For me, with most of my guns, I can't use the strong hand to release the slide without repositioning the gun in my hand. (My Glock 34 and 35 were exceptions.)

Contrary to what many claim, just about any method of releasing the slide requires fine-motor skills on the part of the shooter. If you grasp the slide (using pinch or handover), you must still release it cleanly for it to slam forward properly.

In competition, I found that I could use three fingers together (in a simple "claw") to press the release -- hard to miss the lever that way. More importantly, the gun could generally be kept more nearly on target during the reload process than with the other methods -- allowing, at least for me -- faster reacquisition of the target.

Your mileage may vary.

[HawkeyeNRAlifer]

Both. As Koda94 mentioned, on some guns using the slide release may cause premature wear. My first Ruger MKII pistol got to the point it would not hold the slide/bolt back because I always used the slide release and it did wear down after a few years. I sure other guns are more robust, and I've never had this problem reoccur with my other pistols, but I sling shot my current MKII exclusively.

[Herr Walther]

I was taught to use the slide.

[Jim243]

Both methods are fine, if it makes it easier for you to function your handgun. However, I think the sling shot method is a bad habit to get into.

First you are removing your support hand from your hold to rack the slide, this is not consistent with keeping the weapon on target during mag changes.

Second if you are doing a mag change, your weak side hand is already full of mag, I suppose you could put the mag between your teeth while racking the slide (LOL). Or just let it hit the concrete.

Third by using the sling shot method, you stand a chance of short stroking the slide and not getting another round in the chamber. As well as a chance that the gun does not go to full battery.

It is in my mind a bad practice, and a better one is to get a gun that correctly fits your hand and allows you to use the "Slide Stop Lever" properly.

Maybe some think that they should stop their cars by putting their foot out the door, instead of using the brake pedal (LOL).

Jim

[t4terrific]

Originally Posted by PSP

Both. My door knobs both open and close my doors.

It's a door latch. The knob is simply the place wher you put your hand.

[Koda94]

Which is better from a self defense point of view?

[Double Naught Spy]

In 2009 at the IISHOT1000 (1000 round pistol match), we tested this premise. Generally speaking, using the slide stop/catch/release lever produced more malfunctions than pulling back on the slide itself. JohnKSa probably still has the data from the match.

For most people, using the slide stop/catch/release lever is faster, however. So, you can have speed but an increased chance of a problem or lose speed and have an increased chance of no problem.

[kraigwy]

Using the slide release causing problems is another example of an issue that didn't exist until the internet came about.

That's what Mr. Browning put it on the gun. I use it.

Always have. It was the way I was taught when I went to MP school at Ft. Gordon in 1966. Its the way we did it when we did the manual of arms.

I've got a gazillion rounds out of my Series 70 Gold Cup and never hurt it by using the slide release.

Same with my USGI 1911a1, It was made in '42, so I don't know how many rounds it had through it before I got it, chances are a lot, and I've shot a lot more through it. Use to use it in the NG Combat Pistol Matches. Not to mention I carried and used it as my issue gun when was in the guard. (Beat dealing with arms room guns).

The slide release was designed to be used.

Might also add its faster. Push the button, the empty magazine falls while you're reaching for the next magazine, hit the slide release as you slam the second magazine and it locks in place. Hardly know you changed magazines, just keep shooting. Kind of important in Steel Challenge Matches.

[USMCGrunt]

While I train with both methods and am proficient with both as well, I still prefer to use the slide release. This is the way I was taught to release the slide on a 1911 and M9 in the Marines years ago and still the same way we teach shooters to do it in the USAF today. There are exceptions though for folks that say are left handed (or firing weak handed) and the slide release on an M9 isn't really working for them. Then I make it a point to let them know the sling shot method works just as well if not a little better for these folks.
Some designs don't lend themselves to using the slide release in their stock condition. Glocks are one such design for example. While I can use the sling shot technique, I simply installed an extended slide release and it's not an issue. My CZ52 on the other hand is kept as stock and lacks any kind of release other than a sling shot technique but for me, it's never going to be a carry piece so in this regard, it's a moot point.
The theory that using the slide release will wear it down has never been an issue I have seen. As I said, in the military, we still teach using the slide release and out of the MANY M9 pistols I have fixed or sent back to depot, I have seen cracked and broken locking blocks, cracked or broken slides, cracked or broken frames, broken hammer tripping levers, worn out recoil springs, missing trigger bar springs, and even a burst barrel and broken lanyard ring but I have never seen a worn out slide release lever or a slide worn out in this area that would prevent it from locking open. Now this is not to say that others have had this problem like HawkeyeNRAlifer has mentioned with his MkII. I have no reason to doubt what he says. However, a slide release is an easy part to replace and in the event a slide is worn down at the notch, a set of jeweler files tends to solve this problem quite nicely I should think.
Another theory that just doesn't hold water with me is the "you will fumble and miss the slide release under stress" and the whole "gross motor skill" theory. Let me start by saying that, yes, I have spent time on the 2-way shooting range and have experienced first hand the "flippers finger" effect. However, I would ask you this. If you are going to fumble the slide release lever, how did you manage to depress the smaller magazine release button to begin the reloading process in the first place? I fail to see the logic in this argument. If you can depress one without fumbling, why would you be prone to fumbling the larger lever?
Another issue I have with the sling shot method, especially when dealing with pistols like the M9, S&W classic autos, Ruger P-series and other designs that have a slide mounted decocking lever is the tendency to activate the decocking lever when tugging the slide back. Many a time during teaching immediate action, this will happen in front of a class and I'm glad it happens for me to drive home another learning point about making sure your fingers are tucked under the decocking levers and pull upward as you pull the slide back to ensure the decocking levers aren't accidently engaged. In my experience, with designs like this, you are far more likely to accidently engage the decocking lever tugging on the slide than you are to miss the slide stop, especially when "flippers finger" sets in under stress.
Finally, no matter what the nomenclature a manufacturer uses, if they weren't designed to be used to release a slide, why are many of them serrated on the top for a non-slip pressure? If they were designed to be used strictly as a slide stop, why aren't the serrated on the bottom side instead?
Like I said, you use what works best for you, the individual. You have to look at your hand size in regards as to weather or not you can reach it as well as the weapon design. Is it designed that you can use a slide release or is it like a Sig P230 or PPK that lacks any external lever at all and if they have a lever, can you engage it if shooting left handed? There really isn't a right or wrong way to do this as long as you can get the gun back into action in the minimum amount of time.

[Jim243]

So, you can have speed but an increased chance of a problem or lose speed and have an increased chance of no problem.

I really think that that is more or less of a problem depending on the pistol you use. I really like Sig's but will not own one because of the very small controls on the pistols. Glock's I believe are the same way, so the results of that match would be questionable for me.

A properly designed pistol with extended "Slide Stop Levers" will function flawlessly when properly used, others I am not so sure.

Here are two examples of very good levers.





And a third


The extra length of the levers allows you to apply more force with less effort.


Jim

[RC20]

I agree with Kraigwy.

And its seldom that anyone uses a reload and the odds of an individual needing to reload is infintesible (slim to none in otherwords ).

If it doesn't work the mfg would make it work (reputable). If your gun does not go to correct battery with it you need to buy a gun from an mfg that does go to full battery from the slide release. i.e. get another gun or get it fixed

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by Jim243

First you are removing your support hand from your hold to rack the slide, this is not consistent with keeping the weapon on target during mag changes.

Is there some way to do a mag change WITHOUT removing your support hand from it's hold?

Second if you are doing a mag change, your weak side hand is already full of mag, I suppose you could put the mag between your teeth while racking the slide (LOL). Or just let it hit the concrete.

My weak hand is the one that delivers the fresh mag no matter how the slide is released. Why would you put a mag in your mouth instead of in the pistol?

Third by using the sling shot method, you stand a chance of short stroking the slide and not getting another round in the chamber. As well as a chance that the gun does not go to full battery.

How is there more of a chance short-stroking the slide if you have to pull it to the REAR to release the slide stop?

Maybe some think that they should stop their cars by putting their foot out the door, instead of using the brake pedal.

Maybe some think they should stop their cars by pushing the brake pedal with their hands!

[sheepman]

Use which ever one works best for you. For me it is best to rack the slide as I have and shoot several different makes of handguns. By racking the slide I don't have to think about the difference in size or location of the slide stop.
I also so shoot week handed a lot so racking the slide works for me. The best instructors will tell you to find what works and stay with it, others will tell you that their way is the only one.

[Double Naught Spy]

Using the slide release causing problems is another example of an issue that didn't exist until the internet came about.

As I said, we did this in a match and found it less reliable. The internet has nothing to do with the issue.

That's what Mr. Browning put it on the gun. I use it.

Ah, the all powerful invocation of JMB! Funny how so many people claim to know why JMB did or did not do things, especially with the 1911, when there are no such notes that are known to exist to substantiate such claims. Maybe he put it on the 1911 for that reason, maybe not. Nobody actually knows.

However, if you have documentation from JMB that says otherwise, please do share it with us!

[Walt Sherrill]

As I said, we did this in a match and found it less reliable. The internet has nothing to do with the issue.

That IS a MEANINGFUL test result, but the question that needs to be asked is whether the folks involved in the test (in that match) were "practiced" and competent in the method used? Otherwise, the results of the test are open to debate.

And, as I noted above, the U.S. military's training, based on real-world results in Afghanistan and Iraq now emphasizes the use of the slide stop/slide release lever.

It may depend on the gun, on the familiarity of the shooter with the gun, and the conditions under which he or she is required to perform.

[Sharpsdressed Man]

I guess if your gun was prone to fail if you used the slide stop/release you could always get your gun corrected by a gunsmith to operate as it was designed to do.

[seeker_two]

What does Walther call it?....

[JohnKSa]

Which is more reliable?

Manually racking the slide (assuming proper technique) offers slightly more forward energy (by adding a tiny bit to forward slide travel and spring compression) and therefore provides a slight reliability benefit over dropping the slide using the slide release/stop.

In most cases, it's not enough of a difference to be significant, but it can make a difference between a malfunction and proper operation in some cases.

I entered one of my Ruger P95 pistols in a 1000 round match some years ago--this is the match DNS is referring to above. On round 970, due to fouling buildup, the pistol failed to chamber a round from a full magazine when the slide release was used. I kept shooting the pistol and it operated perfectly for another few hundred rounds (until I ran out of ammunition) as long as I chambered the first round manually by racking the slide. It would consistently fail to properly feed the first round if the slide release/stop was used instead.

The primary reason I rack the slide instead of using the release/stop is because one of the guns I occasionally carry does not have a slide stop/release and I like having one procedure that works for all my guns.

[1911Tuner]

I entered one of my Ruger P95 pistols in a 1000 round match some years ago--this is the match DNS is referring to above. On round 970, due to fouling buildup, the pistol failed to chamber a round from a full magazine when the slide release was used.

And...how many firefights...fought with pistols...will require a thousand rounds to establish the winners and losers? These exercises are fun, I suppose...but in no way do they shed light on any practical circumstances.

The slidestop was named over a hundred years ago, but it performs five functions.

It's a slidestop. It keeps the slide from flying off the front end of the frame when the slide returns to battery.

It's a slide LOCK. It holds the slide open when the magazine is empty.

It serves as an anchor for the link, which pulls the barrel out of the slide when the assemly moves rearward in recoil.

It serves as a camming surface, to put the barrel into the slide and interlock the upper lugs.

It's a slide release, for returning the slide to battery after a reload.

As far as the designer's intent goes...

and with respect to high-speed/low-drag black ops trainers...


Of course it was intended to be used to release the slide. It both protrudes from the side of the frame and it has a textured surface on the top side. These features require machining steps. Machining steps require a machine and a machinist, as well as machine set-up time...and tooling...and time and material is money. Expended manpower is money. As with any contract, time and money spent is less money for the contractor.

If it hadn't been intended to be used to release the slide, the textured protrusion wouldn't be there. It would have been both cheaper and faster to simply mill it flat.

And that should really settle the argument, even though it probably won't.