October 8, 2009, 09:16 AM | #51 |
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Remington's acquisition of Advanced Armament may be a big step towards us finally busting the NFA by getting more people aware of suppressor ownership and then by extension the rest of title 2 items. I'd say that since the $200 tax was such a significant economic barrier for so long and the complication and rarity of Class 3 dealers and purchasing procedure being obscure and complicated there was and is a sort of Iron Curtain that walled off the general gun owning public from them. Of course this is no accident as the laws regarding NFA items are purposefully made to be a deterrent. Even in 1986, to deal with the comparatively small number of MG's that made it onto the registry before the closing, $200 was more money than the average person would like to give up if they felt they didn't really have to and again if they knew they could and if they knew how to do it and who to buy from. I'd venture a very large part of why the public is so skeptical and fearful and therefore averse to MG's and suppressors (and likely don't know a thing about SBR's and AOW's other than perhaps it doesn't look like what they have) is that their information is severely limited by lack of experience and positive exposure due to the mechanism of the NFA leading them to believe they are totally illegal and should be because they have been removed from their world.
If Remington and AAC go about this the way the way they seem to indicate they will, the Iron Curtain will come down.
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October 8, 2009, 12:24 PM | #52 | |
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LMAO!! Wow! Where did you get that gem of misinformation??? Hiram Maxim invented a successful toggle operated machine gun ca. 1885. His machine guns were being used to good advantage by the British by the mid 1890's. John M. Browning successfully patented a gas operated machine gun in the 1890's which was adopted by the U.S. armed forces, and manufactured by Colt as the M1895. It's nickname was the "potato digger." Remember? It was used in the Spanish American War. By the advent of WWI, there were many successful machine gun designs in use by the various world powers, including Various Maxim designs, Schwarzlose M .07, Benet Mercie (Hotchkiss M1909), Lewis Gun (1911), etc. The Germans introduced the concept of the submachine gun in the form of the Bergmann MP-18 during WWI. Machine gun use was well-known and firmly established before the 20th century, and well before WWI. Get your facts straight. |
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October 8, 2009, 12:31 PM | #53 |
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In response to the OP, I read some years back that, when Congress was debating the GCA's of '34 and '35, many members were of the opinion that full automatic weapons were particularly suited for militia purposes.
Those acts were passed in a hysterical (and typical Democrat's) response to the vastly exaggerated 1920's-1930's Prohibition gangster violence that was sensationalized in the news media. In one sense, Roosevelt being the patrician that he was, it was enacted for much the same reasons that the NYC Sullivan Laws were enacted, i.e. to keep weapons out of the hands of the Italians. Last edited by gyvel; October 8, 2009 at 12:36 PM. |
October 8, 2009, 12:36 PM | #54 |
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The NFA was rationalized by hysterical response to the gangsters of Prohibition. It is vastly more probable that FDR was anticipating a revolt against federal economic meddling that was prolonging the Depression.
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October 8, 2009, 12:47 PM | #55 |
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The purpose of the Tennessee State Guard is to provide a professional complement of personnel to support the State mission of the Tennessee National Guard, by assisting the Tennessee Army National Guard as a force multiplier, and at the direction of the Adjutant General, to assist civil authorities with disaster relief, humanitarian causes, ceremonial service, religious and medical support for the well being and safety of the citizenry of Tennessee. Even when the California National Guard was mobilized for the Rodney King Riots their M-16's were converted to semi Auto by the use of a metal block installed to keep the selector from going to full auto position.
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October 8, 2009, 06:15 PM | #56 | |
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October 8, 2009, 11:59 PM | #57 | |
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October 9, 2009, 01:25 AM | #58 | |
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October 9, 2009, 06:47 AM | #59 | |
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I think as soon as WWII ended, there should have been a constitutional amendment proposed to deal with this question -- the if and how of restricting ownership of NBC weapons. I don't think it is obvious that the status quo would remain the same if nuclear weapons were legal to privately own. That is, we don't currently have any idiots blowing up their most-hated cities with personally-owned nukes. I think a few people would probably avail themselves of the opportunity to own nukes. It's tough to say whether they would be smart, or whether that change in policy would have real and tragic consequences. I think it is rational to worry about the consequences of private nuke ownership, and unless we become a space-faring species, I think the negative consequences of nuke legalization MIGHT outweigh the benefits of reduced government interference in private business. Not every rich or powerful person who might want to acquire a nuke is perfectly sane. Look at Ahmadinejad.
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October 9, 2009, 10:55 AM | #60 |
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A very good argument could be made that even a government doesn't have a right to have a weapon that could kill millions of people in a single stroke.
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October 9, 2009, 11:04 AM | #61 | |
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October 9, 2009, 01:34 PM | #62 |
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This has really ventured into the absurd. Please no more comments about privately held nukes. There have been a lot of valid, informed viewpoints brought forth, and this isn't one them. One more nuke post and I'll ask antipitas to pull the plug on this one.
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October 9, 2009, 03:10 PM | #63 | |
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October 9, 2009, 08:30 PM | #64 | |
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Anyway, back on topic, personally I think that the question that I haven't noticed anyone ask here is, would current NFA weapons really be "common" if they weren't as heavily regulated? I'm not so sure. I'm sure they're fun to shoot, but full auto fire really isn't useful for much other than fun and war. And with those rates of fire, it's an awfully expensive way of having fun. Beyond that, nobody's going hunting with a machine gun, and nobody's going to be doing home defense with it. So even assuming that the NFA wasn't as much of a barrier, how many people are going to pay however much of a premium is placed on a full-auto weapon over a semi-auto only version? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the NFA registry opened up again simply to make sure people have the choice, but I think that the assumption of full auto as being something that a lot more people would go for if it were available needs to be reexamined. |
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October 9, 2009, 09:47 PM | #65 |
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But select fire gives you a choice. How many AR15's and M4gery rifles are sold each year? Given the popularity of those rifles, it is likely that select fire would be more widespread.
I reject the "common use" argument as the equivalent of the "Second Amendment only covers muskets" meme. After all, when a new weapon is invented, it is by definition not in common use. Should we ever see the invention of the "plasma rifle in 40 watt range" it will be unobtainable, because it will not be in common use on the day it is invented, thus not protected by the COTUS. That to me is as absurd as saying that the First Amendment doesn't apply to blogs, because they were not in common use in 1986.
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October 9, 2009, 10:04 PM | #66 |
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STOP talking about the Depression - I hated Economics 101.
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I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me. Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; October 10, 2009 at 10:18 AM. Reason: GM - stay on topic, please. |
October 10, 2009, 02:26 AM | #67 | |
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Even in warfare, automatic fire has limited but specific uses such as area denial. There is a reason that the average soldier has, at most, 3 round burst.
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October 10, 2009, 09:22 AM | #68 | |
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October 11, 2009, 01:25 AM | #69 |
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Big Hint - if we say that a topic is off base - drop it.
GM If the NFA registry were opened up tomorrow, and the paperwork streamlined, I guarantee you full-auto or select fire weapons would still be more expensive simply because they have more features. Besides which, the people who can afford to fire them on full auto more than a couple times for fun are the people for whom the extra cost doesn't matter as much. In other words, they'd be priced as a luxury item for a more upscale type of shooter than the average guy who's buying an AR-15. For an analogy, let's look at mobile phones. The mid-range "smartphone" that I own didn't likely cost anything more to manufacture than some of the "dumb" conventional phones that you see at Radio Shack, but it's priced higher because it's expected to attract a different demographic, and therefore they can squeeze more money out of the buyers. |
October 11, 2009, 10:38 AM | #70 | |
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October 11, 2009, 03:59 PM | #71 | |||
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October 11, 2009, 05:41 PM | #72 | |
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Saying full auto were never in common use in the 1980's is like saying that PCs weren't in common use in the 1980's. There simply wasn't much interest in them by most of the population at the time.
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October 11, 2009, 06:16 PM | #73 | ||
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Suppose Congress had imposed a $2000 tax on computers in 1980, and today few people had them. Would you then support the notion that the 1st amendment doesn't protect blogs or websites today because computers wouldn't be in common use? Quote:
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October 11, 2009, 08:15 PM | #74 |
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The common use test is overrated as binding. We know it is one measure that the Heller court brought out in dicta, and we also know it is subject to be undermined by the circular logic rationale. At best, it needs clarification.
As time goes on, new weapons will inevitably come into use, and may be in uncommon use for some time as they gain in usefulness and popularity. As commonly understood, the circular logic inherent in the common use test could be used to preemptively end the introduction of new, modern self defense technology into the mainstream. Over time, this would be the future equivalent of freezing the type of weapons protected by the Second Amendment to swords, daggers, and muskets. |
October 12, 2009, 08:33 AM | #75 |
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So can we apply the common use test to the rest of the BOR?
Only common religions are protected, only popular speech is protected, your home can be searched for uncommon items without warrant. Sorry, "common use" is a fiction that was invented by the SCOTUS out of thin air. If the people want to add "common use" to the COTUS, amend it, but having the court amend the constitution through a declaration is not the way it is supposed to work.
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